That's it.

[michael saulnier]

Uhhhh... How is Curve's post SPAM? Has he opened an attack helicopter franchise that I didn't know about? Or one that sells Chamberlain photo's. You might not agree with his pov, but it ain't no spam. He's just a Philly boy who's ready to watch his country take care of biz. guitplayer

[Rick K.]

Maybe Curve works here in Mesa, AZ where the Apache is produced? Rick

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by Rick Kreuzer: [b]Maybe Curve works here in Mesa, AZ where the Apache is produced? Rick[/b][/quote]If you've seen [i]any[/i] other posts by Curve, Rick, you'd know he's a Philly boy. You can't take Philly outta the boy, and you can't take the boy outta Philly. :D What was that spam comment about, Sal? Rog has a point... The Anschluss came to Austria (Germany's clandestine takeover of the Austrian government by Austrian Nazis, controlled by Hitler.) and Poland was invaded before the English and French thought it might be wise to oppose Hitler. Saddam hasn't marched his troops or taken over another gov't since Gulf War I. He should invade somebody before we attack.. makes total sense. Except 2003 has little in common with 1938, other than the fact somebody should have done something before the tyrant attacked other countries. Regardless, it's nice to have Rog to let us know how our entire way of life has failed. Darn! If those British hadn't let us break away... this would be a much safer world... uh... right? Several columnists have said it before. The western world wants the U.S. to be the world's policeman... until they disagree with who or how the U.S. does the job. War stinks. No question. But knowing Saddam Hussein has been blowing smoke up our collective asses while he builds an arsenal is frightening, and not just for the U.S.

[Curve Dominant]

[quote]posted by Rog: [b]I'm done. You lot voted for this fucker[/b][/quote]I didn't vote for GWB, but I did meet him here in Philadelphia during his presidential campaign. He walked up to me, shook my hand, looked me in the eyes, and we traded some brief small talk. "Fucker" is not a word I would personally use to describe the man. "Focussed" would be more accurate, based on my experience. What is YOUR personal experience in dealing with the man, Rog? [quote][b]gave him legitimacy, even though he didn't win the election.[/b][/quote]GWB won the election. Al Gore lost it. Gore was ahead by 20% in the polls at one point in the campaign. Gore lost that advantage in the 4th period of the game, and the refs made a questionable call at the closing whistle. You can make a case that GWB didn't deserve to win, but I can make a case that Al Gore deserved to lose. I voted for Al Gore, and I'm GLAD he lost...so let's move on. [quote][b]Now he and his bastard friends are about to re-align the global landscape to further their own ends and you're too fucking fat and complacent to do anything about it.[/b][/quote]Fat and complacent? I have a 42" chest, and a 32" waist. I can run 100 yards in under 13 seconds, and play 60 minutes of soccer without a break. As far as these "bastard friends" as you ignorantly brand them...if you're speaking of Colin Powell, Condeleeza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz et al...you should be so lucky to have such adept minds in your country's government. You can argue with their views on their merits, but you CANNOT question their abilities with any credibility whatsoever. ESPECIALLY when your Mr. Robin Cook, the leader of your Commons, has so spinelessly abandoned your country's leadership in this time of crisis. [quote][b]I'm heartbroken, many millions of others are heartbroken. Democracy, capitalism are experiments that went badly wrong.[/b][/quote]I just walked a half a block, in the middle of the night, to a store and bought myself a sixpack of delicious locally brewed beer. I don't see anything badly wrong with the way our democratic capitalism has turned out. Sorry bloke, but we're doing just fine, so stop worrying. [quote][b]You had it all, you had an amazing constitution written by better men than I. You fucking blew it. Wyatt 'Captain America' Earp was prophetic.[/b][/quote]There you've lost me. Our constitution is intact. I happen to live a few blocks from where it was written, so I should know. Just today I walked through Independence Hall on the way to my bank branch to deposit a paycheck. I didn't see any constitutional crisis. The bank was open for business. The check didn't bounce. I wasn't accosted by secret police on the way out of the bank. The Liberty Bell was still there, right across the street from my bank, tourists from around the world streaming into/out of the pavillion to look at it. So Rog, to make a semi-long story semi-short... Just what the FUCK are you talking about??!!!

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by alcohol: [b]Vincent Bugliosi, author and former prosecutor : , the Court committed the unpardonable sin of being a knowing surrogate for the Republican Party , Bush desperately sought ... to prevent the opening of the box, the looking into the box-unmistakable signs that he feared the truth. " (The Betrayal of America, by Vincent Bugliosi) [/b][/quote]The first thing one should ask when some dumbass writes a book is; 'why is he writing the book?'. Look, I've seen this stuff time and time again. It's little kids playing a game! The one who loses often says; "Oh, you only won because you cheated". This is the same shit... I heard it from Rush Limbaugh when Clinton was first elected... "Oh, most americans didn't vote for Clinton... He only won because of Perot...bla-bla-bla" Same shit, different party... Don't bore me with what some jerk-ass-who-doesn't-have-a-clue-but-wants-to-sell-a-book, thinks happened in the election. If the evidence were REALLY SO compelling that the truth was being suppressed, you can bet Gore would have been all over it. Gore ran a good campaign, and he may well have won if Clinton hadn't had to have his dick sucked in the oval office. [i]Now [b]that's[/b] a good title for a book![/i] Gore lost, Bush won -fair and square. Accept it. If you don't like him, vote him out. In the U.S. you can do that...

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by ZekeSmith: [b]Why are all these threads remarkably similar? Why do they each disintegrate into armchair-activist, mind-numbing, useless-as-tits-on-a-bull political commentary thinly veiled as an attempt at compassion? Salesmanship and market appeal. That's what we're really interested in. and vote for whatever the latest democratic flavor of the month is, and hope it's somehow materially better for the world. I need a drink.[/b][/quote]YEAH! Well put...

[Philter]

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_12/b3825801.htm "The U.S. has already lost the prewar battle over Iraq, whatever the outcome of a further U.N. vote. ... America will be entering its first preemptive war faced with opposition from nearly all of its allies and much of the rest of the planet. A world that rallied to America's side in unprecedented demonstrations of support after September 11 increasingly perceives the U.S. itself as a great danger to peace. How did things come to this? The failure of the Bush Administration to manage its diplomacy is staggering, and the price paid, even if the war ends quickly, could be higher than anyone now anticipates. The political effect of this foreign policy imbroglio is already obvious. It can be measured in tattered alliances and global tensions, eroding support for President George W. Bush, and big changes throughout the Middle East. What remains unclear are the economic consequences. In the end, they may be far more significant. Uncertainty is anathema to investment and growth. Much of the current weakness in the U.S. and the global economy is due to the immediate questions surrounding an Iraq war. Yet the Bush foreign policy of unilateral preemption is so ill-defined and open-ended that it could weigh heavily on the global economy well after the bombing stops. Look at the Administration's agenda. The war in Iraq will be followed by an occupation that could last years, cost many billions of dollars, and involve tens of thousands of occupying troops. That's a big price to pay if bungled diplomacy means that the U.S. bears most of the financial burden. Then there's dealing with North Korea's rush to build nuclear bombs. And Iran's play for nukes." http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/18/opinion/18KRUG.html "What scares me most, however, is the home front. Look at how this war happened. There is a case for getting tough with Iraq; bear in mind that an exasperated Clinton administration considered a bombing campaign in 1998. But it's not a case that the Bush administration ever made. Instead we got assertions about a nuclear program that turned out to be based on flawed or faked evidence; we got assertions about a link to Al Qaeda that people inside the intelligence services regard as nonsense. Yet those serial embarrassments went almost unreported by our domestic news media. So most Americans have no idea why the rest of the world doesn't trust the Bush administration's motives. And once the shooting starts, the already loud chorus that denounces any criticism as unpatriotic will become deafening. So now the administration knows that it can make unsubstantiated claims, without paying a price when those claims prove false, and that saber rattling gains it votes and silences opposition. Maybe it will honorably refuse to act on this dangerous knowledge. But I can't help worrying that in domestic politics, as in foreign policy, this war will turn out to have been the shape of things to come." http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/18/opinion/18TUE1.html "Once the fighting begins, every American will be thinking primarily of the safety of our troops, the success of their mission and the minimization of Iraqi civilian casualties. It will not feel like the right time for complaints about how America got to this point. Today is the right time. This war crowns a period of terrible diplomatic failure, Washington's worst in at least a generation. The Bush administration now presides over unprecedented American military might. What it risks squandering is not America's power, but an essential part of its glory."

[Philter]

Mark my words: this complete failure on the part of the Bush administration will haunt us for at least the next decade. As a patriot, I'll never forgive him for the worldwide shame he and his administration have brought upon us.

[Jotown]

[quote]Originally posted by Philter: [b]Mark my words: this complete failure on the part of the Bush administration will haunt us for at least the next decade. As a patriot, I'll never forgive him for the worldwide shame he and his administration have brought upon us.[/b][/quote]Thank you for articulating how many of us feel at this tragic juncture in history. God bless those troops at risk. God bless us all.

[michael saulnier]

[quote]Originally posted by Philter: [b]Mark my words: this complete failure on the part of the Bush administration will haunt us for at least the next decade. As a patriot, I'll never forgive him for the worldwide shame he and his administration have brought upon us.[/b][/quote]Mark [b]my[/b] words. The complete failure of the Security Council of the United Nations to put meaning behind their words will haunt them for at least the next decade. As a patriot, I'll always remember how fortunate we were that we had a president who understood the meaning of his oath of office and acted to protect the US and the world against evil and terror. guitplayer

[Charlie-brm]

[quote]Originally posted by Philter: [b]. . . Uncertainty is anathema to investment and growth. Much of the current weakness in the U.S. and the global economy is due to the immediate questions surrounding an Iraq war. Yet the Bush foreign policy of unilateral preemption is so ill-defined and open-ended that it could weigh heavily on the global economy well after the bombing stops. Look at the Administration's agenda. The war in Iraq will be followed by an occupation that could last years, cost many billions of dollars, and involve tens of thousands of occupying troops. That's a big price to pay if bungled diplomacy means that the U.S. bears most of the financial burden. Then there's dealing with North Korea's rush to build nuclear bombs. And Iran's play for nukes."[/b][/quote]It's only ill defined until you read the think tank papers endorsed by Rumsfeld, Perle, Cheney et al. There just wasn't an opportunity until 9/11 to put it in motion so rapidly. The players weren't counting on an impetus to expand the military "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor." "to exert global political leadership." But obviously they contemplated it. They propose to remain in every base in Europe, expand the Middle East and South East Asia, and even be present as a military political force in a reunified Korea. [quote][b] "What scares me most, however, is the home front. Look at how this war happened. There is a case for getting tough with Iraq; bear in mind that an exasperated Clinton administration considered a bombing campaign in 1998. But it's not a case that the Bush administration ever made. Instead we got assertions about a nuclear program that turned out to be based on flawed or faked evidence; we got assertions about a link to Al Qaeda that people inside the intelligence services regard as nonsense. Yet those serial embarrassments went almost unreported by our domestic news media. So most Americans have no idea why the rest of the world doesn't trust the Bush administration's motives. And once the shooting starts, the already loud chorus that denounces any criticism as unpatriotic will become deafening. [/b][/quote]The people in charge in Washington are getting their dream come true. It's 90 pages, but everyone should read [b]Rebuilding America's Defenses, Strategies, Forces and Resources for a New Century.[/b] [url=http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf]Acrobat Document[/url] Then you will have an insight to the current administratio. It is the blueprint from the long term thinkers in office. If you're OK with it, you got what you deserve.

[Charlie-brm]

[quote]Originally posted by Philter: [b]. . . Uncertainty is anathema to investment and growth. Much of the current weakness in the U.S. and the global economy is due to the immediate questions surrounding an Iraq war. Yet the Bush foreign policy of unilateral preemption is so ill-defined and open-ended that it could weigh heavily on the global economy well after the bombing stops. Look at the Administration's agenda. The war in Iraq will be followed by an occupation that could last years, cost many billions of dollars, and involve tens of thousands of occupying troops. That's a big price to pay if bungled diplomacy means that the U.S. bears most of the financial burden. Then there's dealing with North Korea's rush to build nuclear bombs. And Iran's play for nukes."[/b][/quote]It's only ill defined until you read the think tank papers endorsed by Rumsfeld, Perle, Cheney et al. There just wasn't an opportunity until 9/11 to put it in motion so rapidly. The players weren't counting on an impetus to expand the military "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor." "to exert global political leadership." But obviously they contemplated it. They propose to remain in every base in Europe, expand the Middle East and South East Asia, and even be present as a military political force in a reunified Korea. [quote][b] "What scares me most, however, is the home front. Look at how this war happened. There is a case for getting tough with Iraq; bear in mind that an exasperated Clinton administration considered a bombing campaign in 1998. But it's not a case that the Bush administration ever made. Instead we got assertions about a nuclear program that turned out to be based on flawed or faked evidence; we got assertions about a link to Al Qaeda that people inside the intelligence services regard as nonsense. Yet those serial embarrassments went almost unreported by our domestic news media. So most Americans have no idea why the rest of the world doesn't trust the Bush administration's motives. And once the shooting starts, the already loud chorus that denounces any criticism as unpatriotic will become deafening. [/b][/quote]The people in charge in Washington are getting their dream come true. It's 90 pages, but everyone should read [b]Rebuilding America's Defenses, Strategies, Forces and Resources for a New Century.[/b] [url=http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf]Acrobat Document[/url] Then you will have an insight to the current administratio. It is the blueprint from the long term thinkers in office. If you're OK with it, you got what you deserve.

[Philter]

Charlie, you should read [url=http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/10/ma_273_01.html]this[/url] too, it's pretty concise and well-written and I believe it addresses the same topic. I was more interested in the [i]tone[/i] of the clippings that I posted... those a pretty harsh words for any mainstream media outlet. Just putting a thermometer in the US press-rectum.

[Philter]

[quote]Originally posted by guitplayer: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Philter: [b]Mark my words: this complete failure on the part of the Bush administration will haunt us for at least the next decade. As a patriot, I'll never forgive him for the worldwide shame he and his administration have brought upon us.[/b][/quote]Mark [b]my[/b] words. The complete failure of the Security Council of the United Nations to put meaning behind their words will haunt them for at least the next decade. As a patriot, I'll always remember how fortunate we were that we had a president who understood the meaning of his oath of office and acted to protect the US and the world against evil and terror. guitplayer[/b][/quote]What will haunt the UN will be the way the US and G.B. (George Bush or Great Britian, does it matter?) undermined it, and their failure to stand up to US hegemony in a more forceful way, and with action. Perhaps they still will; it's early in the big picture of how the US grab for world dominance will play out. If things continue in the current direction, Bush won't be reelected, and the next administration will be able to work to repair the damage he's done before it gets any more out of hand.

[michael saulnier]

The UN is NOT a nation state. Without the US, it has NEVER had ANY teeth. What can an unhappy UN do? Write a resolution? That obviously doesn't have much weight. It's proven itself to be a poor international coilition. There's probably a role for peacekeeping, humanitarian aid, and endless debating. ;) But the REAL issues in the world will be decided by the nations themselves. As they always have been. Or are YOU ready to be a citizen of the UN? guitplayer

[Philter]

It's silly, an argument against the principles of the UN is an argument against the principles of democracy. Your Darwinian theory of nationalistic politics is as repellent now as when it led the world into two World Wars at the beginning of this century. Over the next two years, we will see immediate results from this failure of diplomacy. It's easy to predict several of them- a ballooning national debt due to war and reconstruction costs, shouldered almost completely by the US due to failed diplomacy the contraction of global trade a deepening recession further radicalization of the Islamic public due to a perceived US invasion of Muslim lands a resultant burgeoning of the ranks of terrorist organizations development of nuclear weapons by NK due to gross negligence by an administration fixated on Saddam Hussein the fall of the Bush regime followed by a long and painful journey for America back to her place as a beacon of liberty and hope for the world it's a lot harder to win friends than it is to drive them away.

[michael saulnier]

Or perhaps the UN based world order you desire ISN'T in the cards. Maybe this bold move will be the first in a series of actions that ultimately lead to a more peaceful, democratic, and stable world. I haven't heard France or ANY other nation ready to cut economic ties with the US. And just watch what happens when the Iraqi rebuilding and oil revenues start flowing... the nations who oppose us now will be clamoring for a chance at the trough. The UN is not dead. It's just proven itself not a good match for these sort of problems. As I said elsewhere. There are other things it can do well. Not this. That's OK. There are other ways of handling it. You seem to keep ignoring the fact that even WITH UN backing... which we have from UN 1441 and previous resolutions... The US still has to be the fist in the glove. It would be up to us no matter what the decision was... as it should be since its OUR troops that are going to be sent into action. NO other nation has the ability to stand up to these sort of threats. NO viable UN based military force has EVER been created without the might of the US behind it. Dream of your UN utopia if you must. Your dream doesn't hurt anyone. :D Our leaders will do what they have to. guitplayer

[Philter]

"You seem to keep ignoring the fact that even WITH UN backing... which we have from UN 1441 and previous resolutions... The US still has to be the fist in the glove. It would be up to us no matter what the decision was... as it should be since its OUR troops that are going to be sent into action." And you seem to be ignoring the fact that Santa Claus isn't real. WTF are you talking about? Now I have to say every possible thing imagineable, or else I'm ignoring it? You seem to be ignoring the fact that Bush fucking blew the diplomacy and now we're going it alone on this one. That's the bottom line, he fucking blew it and now we're out there alone. That's a bad thing, not a good thing, and just about everyone in their right mind knows it, regardless of how they feel about our boys in the desert or Saddam Hussein or Santa Claus or whatever. This retard of a president is a complete failure at diplomacy and a shame to our nation.

[michael saulnier]

Can you give me a list of who you think would be out there "with us" that isn't going to be? And how our forces are one iota weaker because they're not there? Oh, you didn't mean militarily out there. Politically. Safe at home. Watching on tv. That sort of thing. Behind us. :rolleyes: Oh, btw, since France has stated publically that they would veto ANY resolution that leads to force... WHAT DIPLOMATIC STRATEGY [b]COULD[/b] HAVE WORKED? Let me help you with the answer. NONE. :freak: Of course when there was no chance for a diplomatic solution, we could have just said "screw it" and walked away leaving Saddam with his victory. But I guess Bush is too retarded to think of that. :D guitplayer

[Mats Olsson.]

What I don't get and that perhaps some of you folks can explain is this: In the speech GWB just held, tried to give the impression that the attack is only against Saddam & co and not the nation of Iraq. To justify the attack, he is refering to the combined effect of UN security counsil resolutions 678, 687 and 1441. But from what I recall, those resolutions give no mandate to overthrow any political leadership in Iraq, they only adress the inspections & disarmaments issues (and trade sanctions). And another thing, how can one ignore UN's decisions and at the same time justify those actions by refering to UN decisions? It just doesn't make sense. The speech was very well orchestrated, but what the man really said doesn't match up very well. History will prove him wrong. /Mats

[jlahib.no]

have you drafted, guitarplayer? or will you stay home watching it all on TV?

[Dan South]

I didn't vote for President Hitler. I, like the majority of American voters who showed up that day, voted for Vice President Gore. An obscure institution called the Electoral College rearranged those votes into a simplified count that gives the leading candidate in each state ALL of that state's votes. - I wonder who came with THIS brilliant bit of logic. - Then a bunch of redneck local Florida bureaucrats rigged ballots in such a way that Bush took a county of Hispanics and Jews (yeah, right!). And ultimately, the Supreme Court, the majority of it's members having been appointed by Reagan or Bush, Sr., overturned Mr. Gore's challenge for a recount in Florida. I resent that you infer from these events that *I* *personally* had anything to do with the election of George "Idi Amin" Bush.

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by Rog: [b]I'm done. You lot voted for this fucker, gave him legitimacy, even though he didn't win the election. Now he and his bastard friends are about to re-align the global landscape to further their own ends and you're too fucking fat and complacent to do anything about it. I'm heartbroken, many millions of others are heartbroken. Democracy, capitalism are experiments that went badly wrong. You had it all, you had an amazing constitution written by better men than I. You fucking blew it. Wyatt 'Captain America' Earp was prophetic.[/b][/quote]Dude, YOU elected Blair, King George's little British butt buddy.

[Rog]

[quote]Originally posted by Get Real: [b] [quote] "Innocent people will DIE." [/quote]Rog, go on over and become a human shield. Other than that, you're stirring the pot. I do wish that we had a system to keep loudmouthed idiot foreigners out of our country. Especially ones that my grandparents had to save their country from their 'no war at all cost' attitude that allowed WW2 to become what it was. If your country led a pre-emptive hit on Germany back then instead of sending in Chamberlin spouting the same retoric your are spewing now, many (read:millions) innocent lives would have been saved. Its wussy talk like yours that causes great human suffering. Shut the fuck up. Go and be a human shield for Saddam... please[/b][/quote]Support Bush or be silent? Has your country sunk that low already? Also, your understanding of WWII is somewhere between flaky and downright offensive. What do you thin the Allies were doing before the US joined in? Don't insult the memory of those that died in WWII ... whatever their nationality.

[Rog]

[quote]Originally posted by Curve Dominant: [b] [quote]posted by Rog: [b]I'm done. You lot voted for this fucker[/b][/quote]I didn't vote for GWB, but I did meet him here in Philadelphia during his presidential campaign. He walked up to me, shook my hand, looked me in the eyes, and we traded some brief small talk. "Fucker" is not a word I would personally use to describe the man. "Focussed" would be more accurate, based on my experience. What is YOUR personal experience in dealing with the man, Rog? [quote][b]gave him legitimacy, even though he didn't win the election.[/b][/quote]GWB won the election. Al Gore lost it. Gore was ahead by 20% in the polls at one point in the campaign. Gore lost that advantage in the 4th period of the game, and the refs made a questionable call at the closing whistle. You can make a case that GWB didn't deserve to win, but I can make a case that Al Gore deserved to lose. I voted for Al Gore, and I'm GLAD he lost...so let's move on. [quote][b]Now he and his bastard friends are about to re-align the global landscape to further their own ends and you're too fucking fat and complacent to do anything about it.[/b][/quote]Fat and complacent? I have a 42" chest, and a 32" waist. I can run 100 yards in under 13 seconds, and play 60 minutes of soccer without a break. As far as these "bastard friends" as you ignorantly brand them...if you're speaking of Colin Powell, Condeleeza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz et al...you should be so lucky to have such adept minds in your country's government. You can argue with their views on their merits, but you CANNOT question their abilities with any credibility whatsoever. ESPECIALLY when your Mr. Robin Cook, the leader of your Commons, has so spinelessly abandoned your country's leadership in this time of crisis. [quote][b]I'm heartbroken, many millions of others are heartbroken. Democracy, capitalism are experiments that went badly wrong.[/b][/quote]I just walked a half a block, in the middle of the night, to a store and bought myself a sixpack of delicious locally brewed beer. I don't see anything badly wrong with the way our democratic capitalism has turned out. Sorry bloke, but we're doing just fine, so stop worrying. [quote][b]You had it all, you had an amazing constitution written by better men than I. You fucking blew it. Wyatt 'Captain America' Earp was prophetic.[/b][/quote]There you've lost me. Our constitution is intact. I happen to live a few blocks from where it was written, so I should know. Just today I walked through Independence Hall on the way to my bank branch to deposit a paycheck. I didn't see any constitutional crisis. The bank was open for business. The check didn't bounce. I wasn't accosted by secret police on the way out of the bank. The Liberty Bell was still there, right across the street from my bank, tourists from around the world streaming into/out of the pavillion to look at it. So Rog, to make a semi-long story semi-short... Just what the FUCK are you talking about??!!![/b][/quote]Eric, I'm glad you met him but what does that have to do with anything? The election issue has been done and it's a moot point anyway. Either you believe the system failed the people or you don't ... depending on your political beliefs. We manage 90 minutes of 'soccer' over here, sometimes 120 minutes. Again, what does that have to do with anything? Robin Cook did the brave thing and resigned. In essence he sacrificed his career for this beliefs. How is that spineless? I'm not going to get into a pissing match about which country has the better politicians, that's beyond stupid. Maybe you missed the reports about the draconian legislation your gov't is bringing to to 'protect you all from terrorists' and 'fight the war on drugs' Do a search ... or don't, I'm glad I live in the UK. I'm glad you seem to be happy with life in Philly.

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by Rog: [b]...What do you thin the Allies were doing before the US joined in? Don't insult the memory of those that died in WWII ... whatever their nationality.[/b][/quote]This is not a joke or an insult, just fact; They were [i]losing[/i]. Admit it or not, it was American involvement and some stupid moves on Hitler's part that kept most or all of Europe from speaking German as the official langauge. Do you really think England could've held on had the Germans continued making U-boats, other naval vessels, rockets and jet aircraft capable of completely cutting off Great Britain from supply lines. Not to mention German scientists were working on atomic chain reactions.

[Rog]

[quote]Originally posted by guitplayer: [b]The UN is NOT a nation state. Without the US, it has NEVER had ANY teeth. What can an unhappy UN do? Write a resolution? That obviously doesn't have much weight. It's proven itself to be a poor international coilition. There's probably a role for peacekeeping, humanitarian aid, and endless debating. ;) But the REAL issues in the world will be decided by the nations themselves. As they always have been. Or are YOU ready to be a citizen of the UN? guitplayer[/b][/quote]Well, the UN is on life-support right now if not actually dead. Bush was seen nearby holding a smoking gun. The UN was set up in part to stop countries taking unilateral action. It has succeeded by not allowing the US to get it's own way. It's also failed as te US have taken the law into their own hands. We're now back to an 'every man for himself' mentality. Countries are now free to reopen old wounds and resume conflicts. Russia can bomb the fuck out of Chechnya, China can invade Taiwan and no-one can say a word against them because they're only following Bush's lead. Do you believe this is a good thing?

[Rog]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Rog: [b]I'm done. You lot voted for this fucker, gave him legitimacy, even though he didn't win the election. Now he and his bastard friends are about to re-align the global landscape to further their own ends and you're too fucking fat and complacent to do anything about it. I'm heartbroken, many millions of others are heartbroken. Democracy, capitalism are experiments that went badly wrong. You had it all, you had an amazing constitution written by better men than I. You fucking blew it. Wyatt 'Captain America' Earp was prophetic.[/b][/quote]Dude, YOU elected Blair, King George's little British butt buddy.[/b][/quote]Yes, I voted for him. At the time he was by far the best man for the job, he projected an image of cleanliness after years of tory sleaze and corruption. It's not a mistake I'll be making twice.

[boosh]

Bush has commited what in bananarepublics they call a military coup. This is what people refer to as the New World Order. The earth is no longer called earth but the Empire of America. There will be a lot of internal wars going on. I don't mind this New World Order as long as my country can keep its own laws,culture and identity. I don't want U.S.marines patrolling the streets in my neighbourhood. Don't see that happenning by the way. This discussion will never end and there will be no solution.The U.S. did not fuck up entirely the U.N. didn't either.

[Mark Borland]

Guys, I have just read through this entire thread and it has got me thinking. What the fuck is everyone doing? I mean surely humanity has progressed to such a level that everyone should be sitting down and and worrying about the fact that in about 100 years there is going to be no fossil fuels, atmosphere or habitable planet left for us to bother bitching over. I mean you read through the stuff here and it is black and white, someone saying they are right and someone saying they are wrong. Sorry folks but it aint like that. I have read through the thread and insults and rhetoric aside I can see valid points on all sides of all the relevant arguments. What use is this you say, your just sitting on the fence, true that may be but essentially everything we are seeing in the world today is an escallation of this petty argumentative mindset. Still if people want to wipe out the world to prove a point or to add 5 points to their share prices (dont even start me on that one) then go ahead, because if this is the case then as far as I am concerned mankind has reached the end fo its evolutionary development and is no longer of any use. Also just a point, arguing about who saved who or what happened in WW1 & 2 is just pathetic. History is there to be learned from not used in petty one up brigmanship. No matter what country you come from. I am not a pacifist , nor am I pro-war. I am not religious nor political. Just a joe nobody who wants to wake up in the morning and not have to eat fallout flakes and halflife milk!