dB levels

[Mats Olsson.]

Smoking gets banned, speed limits are everywhere, but what about sound levels? I predict that noise and sound will be much more of a concern as a health issue than it is now. Hearing loss and tinitus is more common than it used to be. Quite often young people suffer from damaged hearing. What is your take on this? Shall we as profesionals take measures before the legislators step in? Do we feel any responsibilty? What should and shouldn't be done? There's an intresting article at prosoundweb that gives some food for thought: [url=http://www.prosoundweb.com/lsi/ear/csl.php]web page[/url] /Mats

[rold]

While I think legislation, etc. should be a last resort, I do think in a lot of cases the SPLs in a lot of shows are WAY dangerous and if the FOH guys don't make themselves turn it down, then the legislations should be enacted. I can't count how many shows I've been at where the people I was with were practically begging to leave only because they were in literal pain from the volume. To make matters worse, a few of these shows employed FOH "engineers" who had the high-mids/highs turned up to the point where you just wanted to put your head through a wall. Yeah, I definitely think in a lot of cases the SPLs should be brought down to a comfortable (but effective for the style of music) level before it becomes necessary to for bylaws to be enacted. Turning away an audience is one thing, causing permanent hearing problems in said audience should be avoided at all costs. Just my 2c.

[Mark V]

Some random thoughts:I'm convinced 3/4 of the FOH engineers on the planet have damaged hearing and seem to want to damage the punters ears as well. I see guys travelling round in souped up Jap cars with massive SPLs comming from their sound systems,there's gonna be a lot of guys with damaged hearing in a few years. The last time I was in a night club we were literally screaming in each others ears to communicate,I felt sorry for the waitresses who'll end up with a form of industrial deafness from working in that environment all the time. I'm not sure about legislation,but you're right in that it will become more of an issue in the future.

[Salyphus]

I think it's way past the point where something needs to be done, frankly. Actually, several recent shows had me wondering why we haven't seen any class action lawsuits yet? I mean, destroying people's hearing is extremely serious business, and believe it or not, I'm sure most people don't realize that it does permament damage. Seriously, can anyone answer this question: [b]what's the point of sound levels where the only sane option is to wear earplugs?[/b]

[Salyphus]

From the article: [quote]In conversations with several industrial audiologists and workers compensation specialists both in the United States and Canada, all expressed surprise that no one had as yet really tried to nail this issue and go for the serious cash. One specialist pointed out that if someone whose job required undamaged hearing brought a valid claim for hearing loss, the award could be "quite substantial" (think seven figures) because the person could be classified as "permanently disabled" from the perspective of work-related injury laws and compensation authorities/agencies. [/quote]Hm, my understanding of Worker's Compensation laws in the US is that they set pretty strict (meaning low) limits on the amount of money that can be awarded to injured workers, am I wrong about this?

[Mats Olsson.]

I don't do a lot of live sound anymore (used to do it full time). Many a time have I dialed in a good punchy sound at a relatively modest level and what happens 9 times out of 10? The promotor/club owner or assorted (drunk) members of the audience ask for more louder. :( Often the DJ's are blasting away at silly levels for hours on end. Must be horrible to be a bartender/waiter/witress at places like that with everybody screaming orders right in your ears many nights a month. /Mats

[fantasticsound]

As a live mixer, I can say with confidence that Mats is on to the real issue here. Blaming the FOH mixer for a loud concert is like blaming the mailman for massive amounts of junk mail. A sound mixer is governed by those who pay him, and producers, promoters, and artists often want to have the biggest, baddest sound around, and fail to recognize or care how poor the sound quality is. Or damaging. I worked local crew in Nashville on the first KISS reunion tour. During the show, it took me approx. 30 seconds per song, with ear plugs, to figure out what song they were playing. This in an arena I know sounds relatively great. There's no reason, outside the political, for any concert to sound bad in the Nashville Arena. That said, I have little doubt that there are plenty of inadequate sound mixers who's poor technique deliver annoying (at best) or damaging (at worst) sound quality from their system. In addition, most of the responses here are myopic. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mats, but I thought your question was aimed at a vastly larger issue than concert or club sound. You were speaking about the sounds we endure in day to day life, right? Living in or near an urban area we are constantly bombarded by ambient sound, often at levels that can be damaging, either quickly or taken over time. Aircraft, automobile traffic, trains (notably subways and El trains), as well as construction equipment, etc. all provide ample doses of overly loud sounds. This is often true when you're a passenger, too. How many of us wear hearing protection in our cars, on trains or planes. I'm certain some do, but I'd guess most do not. I was given the top, right, rear bunk in a tour bus and ended up sleeping in lounge most nights. Even with earplugs, the engine/transmission/wheel noise was unbearable. My ears are my most important tools. Sleeping in that bunk could've destroyed them. So the question isn't how do we stop concert levels from hitting the red, but how do we stop all noise in society from damaging our hearing? When will all segments of society be held accountable for the noise pollution we create. (Seriously, there have been times when I was stuck at a street light next to some moron who thinks a car stereo needs several hundred watts of power to a subwoofer that I know was at damaging levels inside MY car. When will we start taking these threats seriously. If you don't want increased legislation or enforcement of existing noise pollution laws, the question becomes how do we make people want to turn down any source of such pollution?

[Mats Olsson.]

[quote]In addition, most of the responses here are myopic. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mats, but I thought your question was aimed at a vastly larger issue than concert or club sound. You were speaking about the sounds we endure in day to day life, right? [/quote]Correctamundo, noise pollution is everywhere. /Mats

[Rick K.]

Well someone's gotta be accountable. I played for the Cinco de Mayo festival in Albuquerque last year. It's a huge festival outdoors. As we were waiting for our turn on the main stage, the sound guy himself came into the dressing room and told us he had TWO spl meters. One had a mic at the front of the stage measuring exiting spl's from the stage, and another at the FOH console. He told us that if FOH spl's exceeded a certain level so many times, he'd be fined $10K!! He also told us that our exiting spl's had to be within that same tolerance, or he'd have to shut us down. They don't mess around with this much any more. I'm just glad the other guys I sat in with adheared to this policy or we might not have gotten paid. Rick

[jackpine]

In this day and age if your any kind of musician or AE you simply MUST travel with ear plugs. Here's my fav's. [url=http://www.etymotic.com/]Ear plugs[/url]

[videoeditor1]

Fantastic Sound, If we keep agreeing like this, it's gonna get too bland around here! :D I mix FOH at comfortable levels. Sometimes it's loud, other times it's not so loud. The knowledge I have tells me that the most damage is done low mid, mid and HF material. So I just turn everything below 120hz way up, and give the audience members irregular heartbeats instead ;) Seriously, I pay attention to my aural environment, and most times than not at live concerts / rehearsals / etc, the levels are long past the comfort zone. Didn't I read/hear a while back that Rush Limbaugh, IMUS and Howard Stern have all lost significant portions of their hearing as a result of being in headphones a lot?

[fantasticsound]

ROTF, Drew! No doubt that even private rehearsals get out of hand. I just don't understand it. As I haven't been drunk for about 17 years, I actually [i]care[/i] what I'm listening to at concerts. Many times it seems the powers that be only want to assault the listeners with sound. :( I used to worry about wearing earplugs in my compact car (read: loud ambient sound at highway speeds) for safety issues. But when the radio is on, at relatively low level, it's doubtful I can hear sirens unless they are in my immediate viscinity anyway. I'm hyper-aware of my surroundings in the car, but what about someone who barely pays attention without ear plugs? Do I really want him/her wearing earplugs, to boot? :eek: One more question; How many of you are insulted when the sound man insists on lowering stage volume? I'm always on top of overall levels for the audience. If the stage volume interferes significantly with FOH, I'm going to make you turn it down. That protects the audience and, frankly, me. I don't believe, however, that you'd be surprised how many acts argue with me over what constitutes too much volume. Many suburban towns have either limited the use of landscaping power tools to certain hours of the day and some have outright banned leaf blowers. Is this the answer, or can we rely on citizens being respectful of their neighbors? Where might this take us in our litigation happy society? :eek: :freak:

[Gtoledo3]

[quote]Originally posted by Mats_Olsson: [b] [quote]In addition, most of the responses here are myopic. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mats, but I thought your question was aimed at a vastly larger issue than concert or club sound. You were speaking about the sounds we endure in day to day life, right? [/quote]Correctamundo, noise pollution is everywhere. /Mats[/b][/quote]Well the EPA sets limits that outside a venue it can only be 60db, which is nothing. I'm pretty damn sure they have regulations for inside concert venues too. It's just that these things are not being enforced.

[Prague]

No more babysitting. I mentioned this on an earlier thread, and I don't want to see this happen. Don't save me from myself. I've used earplugs for years. Gun shops have sold them for uears without legislation. Could those dad-gum gun people actually be smart?

[Charlie-brm]

Our best hope is self-regulating industries, and the public making their concerns known. Radio controlled aircraft clubs regulate the noise levels allowed at their fields. If they don't do it, the neighbours and police eventually will. Magazines reviewing power tools now include the operating dB as part of the specifications, eg. routers, sanders, saws, air nailers. I don't think they had to include it, but I'm certainly interested in noise levels when I'm working for hours at a time. That should be encouraged. Shop Vac slapped a Quiet Super Power (QSP) name plate on my little unit and it howls something awful compared to much larger units by other brands. I couldn't find any noise specs so I went with the advertising. I wear foam plugs when operating my lawn tractor, brush cutter, chainsaw, sander. I'll save my ears for enjoying music and nature, what's left of it after I've used my chainsaw and brush cutter :) Just like knowing the fuel economy of a vehicle, or S/N ratio of gear, product noise levels should become an expected specification.

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b]As a live mixer, I can say with confidence that Mats is on to the real issue here. Blaming the FOH mixer for a loud concert is like blaming the mailman for massive amounts of junk mail. A sound mixer is governed by those who pay him, and producers, promoters, and artists often want to have the biggest, baddest sound around, and fail to recognize or care how poor the sound quality is. Or damaging. That said, I have little doubt that there are plenty of inadequate sound mixers who's poor technique deliver annoying (at best) or damaging (at worst) sound quality from their system. [/b][/quote]The inadequate FOH mixers were who I was referring to. I can't say that I've ever been to a professionally done show where there were uncomfortable levels (except directly in front of the mains and except for one that was using an INSANE amount of pyro given the size of the venue, but that's another issue.) But as far as the super-driven mids/highs go, I really can't imagine producers, promoters, or artists specifically asking for a "nails-on-chalkboard/crank the 2.5 and 7k" kind of mix, and even if they were, IMO, it's the FOH guy's responsibility to turn them down on the grounds that they could be sued along with the promoter and/or venue for causing permanent ear damage. [quote][b] In addition, most of the responses here are myopic. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mats, but I thought your question was aimed at a vastly larger issue than concert or club sound. You were speaking about the sounds we endure in day to day life, right? Living in or near an urban area we are constantly bombarded by ambient sound, often at levels that can be damaging, either quickly or taken over time. Aircraft, automobile traffic, trains (notably subways and El trains), as well as construction equipment, etc. all provide ample doses of overly loud sounds. This is often true when you're a passenger, too. How many of us wear hearing protection in our cars, on trains or planes. I'm certain some do, but I'd guess most do not. I was given the top, right, rear bunk in a tour bus and ended up sleeping in lounge most nights. Even with earplugs, the engine/transmission/wheel noise was unbearable. My ears are my most important tools. Sleeping in that bunk could've destroyed them. So the question isn't how do we stop concert levels from hitting the red, but how do we stop all noise in society from damaging our hearing? When will all segments of society be held accountable for the noise pollution we create. (Seriously, there have been times when I was stuck at a street light next to some moron who thinks a car stereo needs several hundred watts of power to a subwoofer that I know was at damaging levels inside MY car. When will we start taking these threats seriously. If you don't want increased legislation or enforcement of existing noise pollution laws, the question becomes how do we make people want to turn down any source of such pollution?[/b][/quote]I agree with you 100% here, Neil. Though my own house is in a rural area, I'm sitting here typing this from a 6th floor condo in downtown Vancouver. Even in summertime, the windows here stay shut on the account that it's just simply too noisy! When it's not construction noise from the other 4 buildings being manufactured all around us, it's the landscapers with gas-powered weedeaters in the garden directly below us (why the hell can't they fucking use electric models?), some status-conscious idiot who sets off his annoying-as-hell 5 tone, two horn car alarm simply to turn heads to look at his benz, garbage trucks in the alley practically SLAMMING the dumpsters into the truck to save time, you name it. WAY too much noise pollution for my taste.

[videoeditor1]

Hey Neil, It's a never ending fight. Last Thursay I walk into a FOH/24track remote gig, and the PA company (good friends of mine) had a pair of EAW 850 subs and tops for the drummer, set to his 6 o'clock. The drummer was on a 24" high riser. So were the cabinets. For the whole night, I'm looking at the levels on the MX2424 and groaning inward. 10 tracks of drums, and every track is getting MONDO bleed from the stack behind the drummer. Regulations: A lot of outdoor venues (and all of the state, local and federal properties I've worked on) have noise ordinances. Some are enforced more stringently than others. I remember racking up $12,500 in infractions at a show in 2000. It was $500 for each infraction (defined as being over a certain dB level within a 5 min period). If you did the math, you'll see we had 25 infractions, for a total of 125 contigous minutes. Fortunately, I had the foresight to invite the principals of the country club over to the FOH console, where they saw for themselves that the audience cheering was way over PA....

[BNC]

by Sal: "Seriously, can anyone answer this question: what's the point of sound levels where the only sane option is to wear earplugs?" There is no point. All the tone and rumble can be felt at lower Db's. I think OSHA says that earplugs should be worn when hearing anything over 80db for more than an hour. Maybe there should be more db meters so people know exactly how loud something is, and then be able to make a decsion as whether to wear plugs or not. I always wear plugs at gugs, everyone just plays too loud for my sensitive eharing.

[fantasticsound]

'rold, Drew... I love you guys! :D LMAO 'rold, unfortunately, the money-men do often push the limits of PA's to the point that no amount of EQ will solve the problem. You reach a point where fairly narrow frequency bands begin to interact with the acoustic space. Not always the case, but I've heard it happen. :( Regarding the gas powered trimmers, if you never use 'em, you'll never know just how much more powerful and convenient they are than electric models. I use a cheap electric, but dragging around 100' of heavy electrical extension cord [i]really[/i] sucks! :freak: Drew, both of those stories are priceless gems! So personal, yet so cliche! :D (BTW, the McGraw tour is a no amp, IEM tour with a Buttkicker on the drummer's throne. I forgot to ask if they're even [i]using[/i] amps. (They were not under or behind the stage, so I have my doubts whether they exist. ;) ) How much better can it get as a sound mixer? Oh, yeah... they have two Paragon desks at monitor position and two engineers... that [i]is[/i] better! :cool: )

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b]'rold, Drew... I love you guys! :D LMAO)[/b][/quote]{inthert thlurry lithp here] Why Neil, I never knew you cared! :love: :D [quote][b]'rold, unfortunately, the money-men do often push the limits of PA's to the point that no amount of EQ will solve the problem. You reach a point where fairly narrow frequency bands begin to interact with the acoustic space. Not always the case, but I've heard it happen. :( [/b][/quote]I guess it would depend on the money-men in question. I've been an on-again-off-again promoter for the past 14 years, put on hundreds of shows both as a performer and as a promoter and I've never ONCE asked an engineer to push the envelope. Nor has any owner/manager OR artist ever approached me with a *lack* of dB issue. Au contraire, I have been asked a countless number of times to try and order the FOH guy to simply "turn it the fuck down". I don't really want to place the blame solely on the engineer, but a lot of these guys have such an insensitivity to mid/higher frequencies that I have had to literally yell at them to either turn it down or adjust the EQs so it wouldn't be so horribly painful! Nonetheless, I digress. As the esteemed GM might say, YMMV, especially when comparing a pro engineer to "some guy" put behind the board only because he doesn't get that blank look on his face when he sees the plethora of knobs, faders, and buttons on the console and outboard. :thu:

[where02190]

This is a great post, and awareness of this issue is a major concern of mine, as there seems to be no regulating of SPL either in the concert world or the real world. I have always mixed at conservative volumes, and have been approached many a time by club owners and concert goesr to "crank it up!!!" to which I have always replied that it is my job to mix according to the bands needs, and sinc ethey are paying for that service I am responsible to them only. If you want to hear it louder go stand over there in front of that speaker. Noise pollution is everywhere, from the car stereos to the planes trains, automobiles, supermarket paging systems, enterntainers at restaurants (that are supposed to be backround music!!!!) there is no escaping it. I have carried ear protection in on my person full time for well over two decades now, and have no problems using it. I plan on being able to hear my great grandkids when I'm old and gray. We need to do more than discuss this on a forum, we need to take a stand. Education is key, particularly to the worker who may not realize the long term effect being in a loud environment (particularly a club where the OSHA stnadards seem to be ignored the most) will be. But also, to the patrons, mostly young people, who don't realize that 3-4 nights a week grinding it out on a 120db+ dancefloor spels deafness at 40. We live in an age where reproduction develepment has never been better. refinement in speaker and amplifier designs, continuing development in playback systems, give us the ability to deliver clean, undistorted sound to the masses. with this also comes the ability for the aduience to not realise jsut how loud it is, because of the sonic clarity and lack of distortion. Lets all make a concious effort to do more than just talk about this, but to act. report noise polution in citys and towns that have ordinances. Keep those mix levels down. Write your legislatures about noise regulations. teach our children that loud is harmful, as we do with fire. Education is key, and ignorance is not always bliss. For info on OSHA regulations regarding SPL and exposure limits, see table G-16 on this post: [url=http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9735&p_text_version=FALSE]http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS& p_id=9735&p_text_version=FALSE[/url] Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[fantasticsound]

Very apt post, Where. Actually, I've always been surprised at the levels people will subject themselves to on a dance floor. I was never a club'er, but the few times I've gone to discos, talking in the club was impossible.

[Charlie-brm]

[quote]Originally posted by where02190: [b]This is a great post, and awareness of this issue is a major concern of mine, as there seems to be no regulating of SPL either in the concert world or the real world. (snip) Noise pollution is everywhere, from the car stereos to the planes trains, automobiles, supermarket paging systems, enterntainers at restaurants (that are supposed to be backround music!!!!) there is no escaping it. [/b][/quote]Have you ever eaten at an East Side Mario's? It's an eatery chain with New York motif. You can go in there at 11 a.m., be the first and only patrons for a half hour, and they will not turn down the overhead music. "Can't do that sir, it's part of the atmosphere." So we say fine, when there's actually someone else in here, turn it back up. Right now we can't talk across the table. That's not isolated because I've been dragged out to a few of them in different towns, plus other people tell me the same thing.

[Dwarf]

[quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b]Very apt post, Where. Actually, I've always been surprised at the levels people will subject themselves to on a dance floor. I was never a club'er, but the few times I've gone to discos, talking in the club was impossible.[/b][/quote]I did a gig on Saturday night in a small bar. While the band was playing the manager kept telling me to turn it down. Well, the band were all playing at a reasonable stage volume and turning down the PA just brought the vocals down. There wasn't anywhere down to go - it was the right volume for that band in that bar. Hell, I could hear people having conversations during the songs. And then the DJ played between sets. I should have brought my db meter out - he was so loud that you couldn't hear the person in front of you unless they stuck their mouth against your ear. Band comes on - turn it down, it's a little loud. It wasn't an eq issue, I'm pretty sure of that. The distortion from their house dj system alone should have driven them nuts if they had any hearing left. But the band was too loud. Uh-huh, yeah, right. -- Rob

[sign]

Great thread Mats. Although there have been threads about the subject before, it is still very important to keep at least trying to do something about this horrible problem. When I was twenty, I could hear a mosquito flying in my living room (that was a long time ago) Now I hear only traffic noise. Imagine thousands of years ago men were hunting for food and had to keep as quiet as possible. How good was the hearing of an average person then? If we keep on making so much noise, a big part of humanity will be deaf. I mix at 80db :( (in the studio)

[fantasticsound]

Hey, Dwarf, Did you resort to the Sound Man's Survival Manual... page 1. There's always a way to appear to change fader or potentiometer levels without actually doing so. ;) There's the method of pretending to adjust, then asking the musician/bar owner/producer if that's better. There's the adjustment to system limiters to offset fader moves. (For those anal retentive bar owners, etc. who insist on marking the fader level. I learned this from a teacher in Chicago. He was mixing a local band as opener for a national act. They soundchecked and everything was fine, when the national's management walked over and physically moved the master faders down and said, "This is as loud as the opening act gets!" The national's FOH mixer was cool and amenable. They raised the system limiter threshold to compensate for the faders. When the show began, the suit comes over, mad as hell... then begrudgingly walked away when he noticed the masters were right where he placed them! :D )

[Maginder]

'Hear! Hear!' to the story about the band that was "Too loud", only to be completely obliterated by the DJ in the break! I am a musician and sound engineer who has been through this type of scenario too many times. Why is it that live music is subjected to this type of "it should be background music for the good beer drinkers to talk over" treatment when canned music gets pumped at a volume you'd need a PA just to talk to your friends over? Many times when the issue of volume comes into play it's because the tonal quality is offensive. You know, high mids are too prominant in the eq curve. There ARE some sound engineers who mix this way, possibly because those frequencies are attenuated from too many years of bad (and loud) live sound. There are also many engineers that wind the ratio and threshold on their house limiters to the point that they are squashing virtually every signal that comes through to a ridiculous degree. You can hear the squash, and the first thing that you lose is the low end, the warmth. So it's in no way too loud in SPL, but sounds horrible and scratchy anyway, particularly when it's amplified acoustic instruments you're listening to. Maybe there should be a license given to people that permits them to run sound in various sized rooms. That might stop some dick who doesn't know how the instruments on stage SHOULD sound from screwing with the music. And to add db meters to every club would kill the viability of most live music, in that the audience at a well attended gig will be constantly setting the damn thing off with their applause. Perhaps we should also legislate against sold out gigs and good responses too? Like I said earlier most of the times that I have had a complaint with painfull sound at a show I've attended it's been eq not volume that has been the problem. :p

[Tedly Nightshade]

What a relevant topic! Couldn't be more important or timely. I'm hear to tell you that it is not SPL but DISTORTION, specifically transistor distortion with all the wrong harmonics, that is painful and damaging. SPL can hurt you too, but undistorted, for example acoustic, it hurts a lot less and does less damage. We've become so accustomed to crummy PA (and there are some million-dollar crummy PA's out there)... and we've become accustomed to the volume knob. I wonder if the oldtime acoustic dance bands were told to "turn it down" or "play softer" or if it was accepted that instruments were there to be heard- I guess the "cocktail pianist" has always been about tinkling away... There are whole worlds of phase issues, usually TOTALLY unaddressed on a stage, where multiple mics pick up off-axis versions of everything in sight... All the EQs in the world will only make that a lot worse. We routinely make a horrible bollocks of doing sound, and the paradigm where racks of gear make it safe for ignorant and unskilled performers to take to any stage, instead of the performers being held responsible for using the mics knowledgably and responsibly, makes PA more about damage control than anything else- the consequences are just too great otherwise, people can be deafened. I don't think I've ever seen a sound person make an attempt to educate the performer why it's not so hot an idea to grasp the ball of the mic in their hand, for instance... or about the proximity effect... Clearly when money changes hands it's not about how it sounds, in a purely sensual way, it's about something else. So much of what is sold as "music" is not about music at all. And the legacy of that is this hellish scenario with the blaring distorted PAs and the law starting to get involved because all these people supposedly so concerned with the music !

[Philip OKeefe]

I mix at 85 dB, with occasional short periods at somewhat louder or MUCH softer levels. This is in line with USA OSHA's "acceptable" levels for an 8 hour period. When bands want to track LOUD in the CR, I throw the cue mix up on my JBL's (why abuse my lovely ADAM S3-A's, even if they can safely handle it?) and put in my earplugs. I always explain to the band that loud levels can damage their hearing, and that personally my ears are worth too much to me to risk that - they're my livelihood. If they want to crank it, well, it's their ears. I suppose I'd be covering my backside better if I got them to sign a waiver, but at least they can't come back and sue me later and honestly say that I didn't warn them. I imagine that one day, there will be even more strict regulations covering recording and live venues. But don't wait until then - protect your hearing NOW while you still have it.

[Rog]

Luckily, I get free tix to most gigs so I've never had to ask for my money back. I'm usually found in the bar these days, far away from the band. One gig (Oasis) was uncomfortable even with earplugs ... it's fuckin crazy, I blame The Who ;) Clubs are as bad around here. One place had a PA which was so overloaded that the horns emitted this high pitched squeal ... I looked around on my way to the exit and everybody else in the clubs was dancing away without a care in the world. They must have been regulars who are well on their way to being completely deaf :confused: