Koa/Black Limba vs Swamp Ash...Head to head

[Jim Soloway]

We finished building two guitars yesterday. This was a great opportunity to compare the effect of different woods on tone. The body on one is black limba with a koa top. The other is swamp ash back and top. Everything else that can have a effect on the tone is pretty much identical, so the difference should be the wood in the body.

 

My wife claims that everything I put my hands on sounds the same and there is some truth to that, but there are definitely some subtle differences. One obvious difference is that the swamp ash is a lot louder. A less obvious difference (at least to my aging ears) is that the koa/limba is smoother while the swamp ash has stronger overtones.

 

I tried to play as close to the same thing as I could on both clips. All of the settings on the guitar, amp and board are identical, so the only real variable should be the body wood. How much difference do you hear?

 

http://www.jimsoloway.com/TascamDemos/KoaLimbaA-B.mp3

 

http://www.jimsoloway.com/TascamDemos/SwampAshA-B.mp3

[Afro_Man]

I agree with you about the differences, the harmonics on the swamp ash sing alot more, both sound amazing, can i pre-order one in swamp ash, in red stain? for like mmmm 2014, because im going to uni in 4 weeks and i'll be there for the next 6 years (10 if i do my phd) so i'll save up for then

Nic

P.S. do you do bass guitars?

[Funk Jazz]

the sustain was impressive on both of them!!! as was the defined bass tones! very nice work Jim!

 

way more "chime" with the swamp ash, almost as if some presence were added. probably the better choice for cleaner, brighter music styles. i would describe it as bell-like, chimey, & airy.

 

but the limba/koa sounds great, too... just different. it probably sounds more les paul-ish with overdrive than the ash would. i'd probably go with this one for a jazz axe. i would describe it as more refined, smooth, & flat.

[Big Red 67]

The simularity of bass responce was awesome. Koa sounds like somewhere between a strat and a Paul, the Ash sounded like a tele with a warmer bass responce.

[fantasticsound]

Very nice. Could hear the differences, but why are you so quick to assume the wood is the thing?

 

Pickups could be contributing, even though I assume the pickups are supposed to be identical, with most manufacturers there's no such thing. A few winds different can affect the timbre, too.

 

Still, I'd probably have you make mine from Ash on the hunch that the wood does contribute to the piano string tone of that instrument.

 

BTW - I must concur with Big Red 67, the Ash sounds a LOT like a tele with a more pleasant, full bass response.

[Guitarzan]

nice ash!

i likey alot!

actually they both sound sweet but the ash is a bit more to my liking.

[Jim Soloway]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Very nice. Could hear the differences, but why are you so quick to assume the wood is the thing?

 

Pickups could be contributing, even though I assume the pickups are supposed to be identical, with most manufacturers there's no such thing. A few winds different can affect the timbre, too.

 

Still, I'd probably have you make mine from Ash on the hunch that the wood does contribute to the piano string tone of that instrument.

 

BTW - I must concur with Big Red 67, the Ash sounds a LOT like a tele with a more pleasant, full bass response.

I assume that it's the wood for three reasons. First, I've used a lot of DiMarzios and they tend to be at least reasonably consistent. Second, You can hear a lot of the difference when the guitars are played acoustically as well. The ash guitar is just a lot louder and brighter. And finally, because the tones live up to my preconceived notion of what these woods SHOULD sound like. There's certainly nothing scientific about that last bit, but I'm getting to point where experience tells me that certain expectations are reasonable.

 

I really like to hear the ash guitar described as being "like a tele with a more pleasant, full bass response". That really fits my idea of what it should sound like and tells me that the design is working. What really feels good is that we're getting that chimey tone with humbuckers so there's no trade off between tone and single coil noise. That's a direct result of the extended scale length.

 

With the koa/limba (and with the koa/mahogany that we finished a few weeks ago), my very first impresion was they sounded much more "Gibson-like". There's certainly nothing wrong with that, but my own preference will probably also start with a Tele and move out from there.

[Big Red 67]

I would go with the ash one the fretless guitar. I love the sound of these and I am going to use an old neck PAF in the bridge position on my current experiment. Science has alot to do with it. You started with a theory, experimented with it, and proved the throery to be true. That is the scientific method.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by funk jazz:

way more "chime" with the swamp ash, almost as if some presence were added.

I wouldn't say, "way more".

I had to A B both samples a few times to hear ANY difference that couldn't be attributed to slightly different nuances in picking.

 

It's interesting to hear sound comparison tests like this.

I think people get too anal over this stuff, personally. If the differences are that subtle in a solo critical listening situation, they would be totally lost in a mix or especially a live situation.

 

Just my opinion, of course...

 

And of course, BOTH guitars sounded fantastic.

[Reverse the Curse]

wow, both sustained wonderfully. I agree with pretty much everything said here. The ash is my favorite tho.

 

I understand completely what your wife was saying, as many people, including myself, have trouble discerning such fine difference when they don't spend so much time searching for that very "right" tone. I am by no means an expert, but I have noticed that the more I play I get better at pointing at such subtle differences.

[Dak Lander]

Well, I'm among those who would prefer tha Ash. I too thought it had more jingle to it, without being overboard. I also thought the sustain was better, at least it seemed so to my ears.

 

This was a great sampling and will push me more toward an ash body when we finally speak about a build for ME. That tone was the tits.

[pauldil]

Jim,

 

Both guitars sound amazing . As everyone seems to agree, the koa had the warmer tone and the Swamp Ash was brighter. Both sounds were beautiful and the guitars have incredible sustain. But really it's too hard to tell just listening to mp3s. Maybe we should all take turns actually playing them for a couple of weeks. I'm willing to go first

 

Paul

[Super 8]

quote:

---

Originally posted by daklander:

That tone was the tits.

 

But it's a good thing....because I really enjoyed the song, and Jim's performance.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Jim Soloway:

...Second, You can hear a lot of the difference when the guitars are played acoustically as well. The ash guitar is just a lot louder and brighter...

 

...I really like to hear the ash guitar described as being "like a tele with a more pleasant, full bass response". That really fits my idea of what it should sound like and tells me that the design is working. What really feels good is that we're getting that chimey tone with humbuckers so there's no trade off between tone and single coil noise. That's a direct result of the extended scale length....

Thanks for the intelligent response, Jim. I was afraid my post might come across as antagonistic, which was not the intent at all. The acoustic tone was something I forgot would be present in your semi-hollow body instruments.

 

But tell me more about how the long scale length contributes to the all around tele with bass timbre you seem to have settled in on. What is the scale length responsible for, tonally, and why?

[Jim Soloway]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Thanks for the intelligent response, Jim. I was afraid my post might come across as antagonistic, which was not the intent at all. The acoustic tone was something I forgot would be present in your semi-hollow body instruments.

 

But tell me more about how the long scale length contributes to the all around tele with bass timbre you seem to have settled in on. What is the scale length responsible for, tonally, and why?[/QB]

 

Think of a full size grand piano as vs a smaller grand vs an upright. As the strings are lengthened, the strength of the overtones increase until with the full size grand, the overtones are so powerful that you can hear them coloring every note. Those overtones are a very big part of a Tele's sound. The 25.5 inch scale length is part of it and so is the placement of the neck pickup directly under the harmonic node. The baseplate bridge style also adds overtones. Ironically, those overtones, rtather than muddying the tone, give more clarity and a more 3 dimensional effect.

 

The 27 inch scale length take that concept to the extreme. I'm not a physicist, so I can't get into the science of it, but the overtones from the long scale are so powerful that the notes have a presence that I've never heard on standard length guitar guitar. I've built these now in ash, mahogany, and limba. I've used different pickups, different amps, solid necks and laminate necks. Whether it's me playing or someone else, the first comment is always how clear and present the notes are.

[Caevan O’Shite]

I also agree that the ash sounds chimier and more "piano-like" than the limba/koa.

 

I'd be very curious to know if any differences at all were evident if you swapped the necks, or even tried some with different fretboard-woods on each one of those two. But that'd be a bit of work, right?

 

Anyways, I can't help but think, that you could alter your "touch" and volume- and tone-controls to get a rounder, warmer tone on the ash-bodoed axe that sounded more like that of the limba/koa one, but you probably couldn't do the reverse. You can round-off and take away what's there- as in brightness and overtones- but you can't bring out what isn't there!

[fantasticsound]

Thanks again, Jim. That makes total sense.

 

My only other question is, can a guitarist with relatively small hands hope to reach an E-barre shape, F-chord on that scale length?

 

My middle finger is 3 1/2" long. I've knew a player who worked at Gand Music years ago who had his picture taken with Allan Holdsworth when AH did a clinic there. They had the same size fingers. I'd guess they have 5 1/2" - 6" long fingers, from comparisons of mine and his. I'd love to try one of your instruments out. Any customers in the Nashville area? If so, could you contact someone and ask them to contact me for a chance to check out your handywork up close?

[Jim Soloway]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Thanks again, Jim. That makes total sense.

 

My only other question is, can a guitarist with relatively small hands hope to reach an E-barre shape, F-chord on that scale length?

 

My middle finger is 3 1/2" long. I've knew a player who worked at Gand Music years ago who had his picture taken with Allan Holdsworth when AH did a clinic there. They had the same size fingers. I'd guess they have 5 1/2" - 6" long fingers, from comparisons of mine and his. I'd love to try one of your instruments out. Any customers in the Nashville area? If so, could you contact someone and ask them to contact me for a chance to check out your handywork up close?

No one believes this when I tell them, but most people who try the guitars really don't notice the extra length unless they know it's there. Scott Lerner, who's a wonderful player, did a whole set of clips that are now on my website. When he first tried the guitar at NAMM, he had no idea that it had a longer scale length and he has quite small hands. So I doubt if you'd find it an issue.

 

I don't have one in Nashville, but I do have a demo guitar that send out for people to play for a a few days. If you're interested, just drop me an e-mail and I'm sure we could work something out.

[fantasticsound]

I'll have to get back to you when a purchase is more likely. No sense in wasting your time when a new guitar of this level is not a possibility for me. But thanks, and I'll contact you when a Swan could be a reality for me.

[Jim Soloway]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

I'll have to get back to you when a purchase is more likely. No sense in wasting your time when a new guitar of this level is not a possibility for me. But thanks, and I'll contact you when a Swan could be a reality for me.

No problem. When the time comes just let me know and in the mean time, if I have something out that way I'll be sure to tell you.