George L cables -- use 'em?

[daddyelmis]

After wrestling with traditional cables for years, and wanting to clean up my pedal board, I'm looking at George L cables, being able to cut to desired length and attach connectors, without solder (and its related risk), looks like a great solution. I'm aware that Eric Johnson uses/endorses George L's.

 

How 'bout you fine folks? Any real life George L experiences?

[fantasticsound]

Yep, great cables, especially for wiring floor boards, as they are far thinner cable than normal, due to the coaxial design.

 

Incidentally, I live in the same town, outside Nashville, where George L's is based.

[GTRBass]

George L's rule!

[A String]

Home made cabling is the way to go. That way you know what you're getting. Myself, I always use Belden cabling with Switch Craft ends. A few dabs of solder and I'm ready to go!

[Funk Jazz]

georgie's are SOLDERLESS

 

when the cable goes to shizit, you can replace it and reuse the jacks. if you short out at the jack, you just cut the cable and reuse the jack. genius! you're never hosed on the gig

 

easiest pedalboard wire job you'll ever do, too.

 

highly recommended.

[Robman2]

I Disagree...and post this as a point of reference, not as a point of spam.

 

L's are drawn copper wire (see boundary effect, van Der Walls' forces and directionality)

 

Mr. Johnson's use of said easy to render design has put them on the map as well it should.

 

If they pull apart etc, they are easy to repair yes.

 

But currently, Zaolla (cast solid silver conductors) are the brand to beat.

 

Casting eliminates boundary grains etc, and using ultr-pure silver along with the casting, sets a new standard for cables.

 

Previously, Carver had a Zero Point copper cable similar in construction, but they no longer offer it.

 

Zaolla is assembled per order and are availble from Mac MIDI Music in Nashville, Cutting Edge in San Francisco, the Fret House in Covina, Wild West Guitars, Tone Merchants, Washington Music, Medly Music, Full Compass, Music Man of Jacksonville and others. (www.zaolla.com)

 

Suggested referrals for the Zaolla would be Andy Brauer, Michael Thompson, Dean Parks, Doyle Dykes, Pete Anderson, Johnny Hiland, Larry Paxton, Paul du Gre', John Fishbach, Al Schmitt, Joe McGrath, Brian Foraker and Denny Fongheiser for starters.

 

Silver, has 49 electrons versus copper's 29. This larger atom makes silver 7% less resistant than copper, even OFC copper (according to high school physics and Belden).

 

What happens is the bass and mids seperate (ask Larry Paxton) and silver does not color the high frequencies (ask Andy Brauer or John Fishbach).

 

Zaolla (or any) good cables are investments as important to the vintage rig or outboard boxes as the gear itself.

 

Additionally, Terry Howard, paraphrases that Zaolla BNC and AES/EBU, by virtue of being 7% less resistant than copper, reduce the error correction aspects in digital transfer and allow improved rendering of all things audio, not unlike a decent word clock.

 

Terry has done extensive listening in his system, for a couple of years againsts all of the favorite studio standards he relied upon prior to discovering Zaolla.

 

Yes, I run the national and international marketing for Zaolla, but choose which ever cables to the best job for your ears and budget.

 

If you get a hold of a Zaolla cable from one of our dealers, and it does not satisfy you, then we will guarantee your satisfation by allowing you to return it for full credit.

 

Thanks for allowing the other perspective.

 

I guess the real pont herein is that Zaolla uses state of the art technology and we started with that for good reason, the best, will always that, untill something beter comes along.

 

Thanks,

 

Rob Manning

NSM

Zaolla

E-mail:questions@zaolla.com

[Funk Jazz]

Originally posted by Robman2:

I post this as a point of reference, not as a point of spam.

LOL

 

maybe should have put this at the start of your post.

 

nice advertising marketing writing style though

 

does sound interesting though. thanks for the information.

[Robman2]

I re-pasted at the top per you're suggestion and didn't catch the other typo's during edit.

 

I do not make a habit of frequenting the borads merely to lurk n' pounce...but the question beckoned a response.

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[Dave da Dude]

Yes, I run the national and international marketing for Zaolla, ...

THAT is what should have been at the beginning.

 

The additional electrons and decreased resistance of a silver conductor may have some merit, but it would have much more merit coming from an UN-biased source.

 

I would like to upgrade my cables. What type / brand is a good mid-priced cable? Is mid-priced $40 or so for 10 feet, or is it more, or less(lol)?

 

Dave

[TeleCarlos]

Tell that to Brian May's curly line!

[Robman2]

Folks,

 

Obviously I do not have an etiquette system for addages about cables, nor a protacol for engaging those who feel besmirched because I am not a professional spamster.

 

No angst intended, it's inofrmation simply that.

 

The acid test is using a cable on your lonesome to figure this all out.

 

Rob

[Robman2]

Dave the Dude,

 

This is practical physics, not biased at all.

 

To quote Greg Luken" if all things are equal, and one uses exactly the same gauge of copper versus silver, then silver will have less resistance and an additional or fourth order of harmonics over copper"

 

My penchant perhaps, but seriously if I really wanted to start a blog war, I guess I could get a few psudonems, post up an agrued specific and set the board on fire to my own contentment.

 

I guess an analogy would be when 96k came along, and everyone said 48k was good enough. Things change, and that's all I wanted to point out.

 

Had I not watched the pro's do the testing of the brands in question,(many times over) with their own rigs and ears, then I'd not have an opinion at all.

 

Thanks for the comments though, I respect the opinion.

 

Cheers,

 

Rob

[Funk Jazz]

Hey Rob

 

for the record i wasn't jumping on you for spamming. i wouldn't be so nice if you had only 1 or 2 posts. i just got a kick out of you eluding to it way down in yer post

 

i don't know about the rest of you, but i almost never have a pristine situation where i could hear fourth order harmonics. Burts Tiki Lounge, The Bayou, Monks House Of Jazz... the dive bars that pay me to play aren't exactly tailored for acoustics.

 

i can fix a george l's cable faster than i can change a string on stage. that's worth more than some esoteric harmonic order nonsense. drunks hate silence

[Dave da Dude]

funk jazz,

drunks hate silence

Especially if they're the ones playing the guitar, hic ... hic

 

Rob, first of all, I didn't see that you weren't a "newbie", and jumped to a conclusion. My bad, my apology.

 

That being said, I didn't mean to dish the theoretical advantage of your silver conductor cable, it's just that I've found over time that the "nth degree" latest and greatest technology (for guitar cables, computers, caluculators, cars, whatever) is only "slightly" better in the real world, and possibly not discernable by the average user in the average situation.

 

Dave

[mjmclane]

Check out Bill Lawrence cables. They're narrow and light and use solderless ends like GeoL, but if you'll look at Bill's comments as to issues of capacitance, etc. and its role in maintaining high end you might want to take a test spin. Also, Bill makes quality stuff and he doesn't charge and arm and a leg for it.

 

http://www.billlawrence.com

[daddyelmis]

Originally posted by funk jazz:

i don't know about the rest of you, but i almost never have a pristine situation where i could hear fourth order harmonics. Burts Tiki Lounge, The Bayou, Monks House Of Jazz... the dive bars that pay me to play aren't exactly tailored for acoustics.

 

i can fix a george l's cable faster than i can change a string on stage. that's worth more than some esoteric harmonic order nonsense. drunks hate silence

AMEN!

 

I'm a gigging musician on a part-time basis (in deference to my day job). I want no negative affect on my tone first and foremost, with reliability being a very close second. And by negative effect, I mean serious negative affect, not simply the kind that shows up on the 'scope.

 

I'm going to look at the Bill Lawrence as well -- it's really the set screw connectors that have my attention because customizing your cable run and fast repair are the keys.

[Gabriel E.]

I've used George L's for a few years now and they sound great. However they're flimsy and tangle easily. Best suited for home or studio use.

 

For live playing I use a home-made Mogami cable with Neutrik connectors. Sounds almost as good.

 

George L's does make a thicker cable (.255??) that might be better live. Haven't used one though.

[Robman2]

Cool thanks...

 

I saw Doyle Dykes again last night, in a store.

 

He suggested that cables "Good" cables are as important as components, as anything in the rig.

 

It was cool, he tried calling Duane Eddy, Ricky Skaggs and one other person whom I forget at this moment, and had the crowd leave them voice mails...

 

On point, the folks who use the stuff we sell, live or otherwise, say it's like taking a blanket off the cabinet.

 

I also, am not sure I can hear all of that nuance, which Greg told me about, but he is after all a mastering and mixing engineer, legally blind, and that comment was part of a discussion regarding Pico Farads etc.

 

Thanks,

 

Rob

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Gabriel E.:

I've used George L's for a few years now and they sound great. However they're flimsy and tangle easily. Best suited for home or studio use.

 

For live playing I use a home-made Mogami cable with Neutrik connectors. Sounds almost as good.

 

George L's does make a thicker cable (.255??) that might be better live. Haven't used one though.

I've always recommended George's thinner cables for pedal boards and rack connections only. Long runs do not work well onstage. However, the thicker cables work fine for instrument to pedalboard/amp runs.

 

Usually, however, I use Mogami quad with Neutrik or Switchcraft ends. They sound great, are extremely durable, and coil well.

 

As for the Zaolla, Over $100 for a 20' cable?!? That's a joke, right? We're not talking about a Mastering Studio. We're discussing guitar cables.. not to mention guitar cables for gigging musicians, not A-list studio aces. That takes some chutzpah to toss a $100 cable into an arena where $40 would be expensive.

 

You want to talk science, Robman2? How about the science of economics? Few concepts in economics are as solid as the law of diminishing returns. As you approach the extremes of product improvement, the cost becomes far more than the rewards can justify. The last 2% increase in quality can often cost 500 - 1000 times the cost to reach 98% of what's possible.

 

As has been suggested by several posters here, George L's fill a great niche in the range of sound quality and build vs. cost. They sound great and, though they cost more than some, are significantly less expensive than others. Now consider the venues and gear being connected? Can you seriously ask a musician who has to carefully consider every new expenditure to pay that much more for a cable to be used in noisy rooms to connect a guitar amp that, at best, doesn't even approach the ballpark of audiophile specs of Mastering Studio gear?

 

I'd personally like to A/B Zaolla and George L's because I know the difference between George L's and your typical Whirlwind, Horizon, etc. cable is dramatic. I won't buy a Zaolla until I'm absolutely floored by the difference between it and great cables I know and love.

 

{edited after investigating the cost of Zaolla cables. Even a 20% - 30% discount would still put them out of the ballpark for an instrument/amplifier setup.}

[A String]

I agree %100 with fantasticsound. The slight difference in the jump in quality does not make for the insane jump in price. Plus, if you can take your guitar that's not quite grounded right plug it into an amp that's not quite grounded right, plugged into into a wall outlet in your home or local bar that's not quite grounded right, mic'ed through a system that's not quite grounded right (And maybe has a little beer in it), then add people talking, glasses clinking, celing fans, T.V.s, road noise for out side and any other odd sounds that occur and then tell me the difference between the two cables...I'll eat my hat!

[shood]

Originally posted by fantasticsound:

Originally posted by Gabriel E.:

I've used George L's for a few years now and they sound great. However they're flimsy and tangle easily. Best suited for home or studio use.

 

For live playing I use a home-made Mogami cable with Neutrik connectors. Sounds almost as good.

 

George L's does make a thicker cable (.255??) that might be better live. Haven't used one though.

I've always recommended George's thinner cables for pedal boards and rack connections only. Long runs do not work well onstage. However, the thicker cables work fine for instrument to pedalboard/amp runs.

 

Usually, however, I use Mogami quad with Neutrik or Switchcraft ends. They sound great, are extremely durable, and coil well.

Fantasticsounds and Gabriel E., you recommend rigging a pedal board with George L's and then using Mogami for the runs that will move (and tangle) on stage? Where do you recommend buying Mogami? Where can I buy the cable to make them at home? How do you compare Mogami Silver with Mogami Gold?

 

Thanks,

 

Sean

[Gabriel E.]

I bought a 100' spool of Mogami 2534 Neglex from an AV supply house (Markertek I think) around 4 years ago. Still have around 40' left.

 

I think it cost around $80-90.

 

No experience w/ Gold or Silver.

[Robman2]

The costs on Zaolla are lower on average then Monster 1000, Tara labs etc but do cost more than Mogami and Canare.

 

The players who use them, treat them as components and realize they are investments as much as the rig itself.

 

Is there enough of a difference?

 

Yes, but as with all gear, it's subjective. I would suggest you get one and do your own listening and playing.

 

If it's not worth it for you, then return it, no questions asked.

 

Do they offer a greater advantage after the 15 minutes it takes for the amp to saturate at nominal power compression? Apparantly yes, at least based upon the players who do use them.

 

Do I suggest you have to use them? not at all.

 

On Mogami Gold, versus Mogami Silver, it's the build on the cable. Gold is the best and every Guitar Center now carries the Gold.

 

You can buy lengths and build your own.

 

Marshall Electronics in El Segundo CA, is the US distributor and can tell you where to buy it.

 

The costs of building the Zaolla cables, is still relatively more, because of the casting process and base metal.

 

The digital cables for example, tend to cost less then the touted high profile brands, the mic cables are more and the guitar cables are in between.

 

In marketing from the diminished perspective, we accepted that when we decided to offer the "best" of the "best".

 

It may not be for everyone in other words, but at retail $115 for 20 feet versus $149 for 21 feet of Monster is a more affordable choice.

 

I've seen many demos with a 3 foot Monster 1000 followed by a 20' Zaolla...No contest, and the Monster was spotted by 17 feet.

 

I 've also seen the L's, Mogami's, Two Rock, and so on but...subjective and unbiased rule the boards so, being skeptical is a good thing.

 

I suppose it's perspective.

 

Thanks,

 

Rob

[Jim Soloway]

I've been using George L's for about 3 years now.

 

As a working musician, I find them to be a very practical solution. They're very inexpensive, infinitely maintainable, and they sound good. There may well be cables out there that will sound a little better, but I can't fix them in 60 seconds at a gig and the George L's sound a lot better than any budget cable I've tried and seem to hold their own at the high end as well.

 

And in fairness Rob, when yo compare your Cables to George L's, just remember that a 20 foot George L costs about $18.

[Funk Jazz]

keeping george l's length under 10' significantly reduces tangling.

 

i think they sound better, too, at 10'. but i'm not stubbourn enough to argue such a subjective topic

 

.02

[Robman2]

Respectfully, L's are cool for thinness and easy to fix and they sound good, as do Planet Waves and Carver.

 

We do not have many returns on Zaolla.

 

Firstly because when I was in retail, the expensive big brand scary, came back broken a bit too often.

 

We use a rivet through connecting pin (like switchcraft), heat shrink the (silver hot solder) joint onto the tang, hot solder the ground shield onto the flange, crimp that onto the cable jacket, heat shrink over the entire internal assembly onto the jacket, and, heat shrink a mylar type clear shrink over the head shell onto the cables.

 

It just means, we build industrial strength, so they don't fail on the road.

 

That being said, we have made a few instrument cables using the AES/EBU cable, which is as thin as the L's. It's then terminated mono and very limp for supertight pedal arrays.

 

Most of the pedal jumpers we make, use the same construction as the instrument cables and in 2-1/2 years, we have a miniscule failure rate on guitar cables.

 

We do offer the lifetime warranty as do most of the brands.

 

I'm off now, got to load up and drive to a trade show in Vegas.

 

Thanks for the banter and know that the merits of your favorites, will still be intact no matter what.

 

If you want to ask anything else (doubtful) e-mail me at questions@zaolla.com.

 

Thanks though, for the exchange.

 

There are players who think buying expensive cable is bunk, engineers as well, so be it.

 

It's always amazing though to watch them try these, or hear from someone I've never met, after they got one and did their own eval.

 

It's no different really then if I were to say, "Hey" the Messiah's on Direct TV this weekend. No one would believe that one now would they?

 

Regards to all,

 

Rob

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Robman2:

The costs on Zaolla are lower on average then Monster 1000, Tara labs etc but do cost more than Mogami and Canare...

 

...I suppose it's perspective.

 

Thanks,

 

Rob

Rob, I don't dismiss Zaolla's claims, nor do I dismiss the possibility they sound better than anything out there.

 

But your last comment is spot on. It's a matter of perspective. 99.9% of the players will reap no benefit from your cables.

[daddyelmis]

Wired the pedal board with George L's .155 this weekend. This cable is worth the price if for no other reason than the solderless connectors. Silent connections, easier as sh#t connections. In the panic of live performance, you can "cut and connect" faster than changing strings.

 

Why other folks are not all over this is a mystery -- even with young Pakistani kids doing the soldering in between making Kathy Lee dresses, it's gotta be cheaper to do set screw connectors.

[fantasticsound]

Cool, daddyelmis...

 

As for why they're still a bit of a niche product...

 

People don't like change. Especially when it appears to be in the wrong direction. (Something you now know is not true of George L's.) The small cable and solderless ends make them think it's just a gimmick.

[daddyelmis]

Well, I tell ya, the George L's made my board go DEAD QUIET. I've got my wireless receiver on the board, a Clyde Wah, a Fulldrive, my Marshall channel switch, a StarTouch A/B box, the power strip (with the amazing One Spot power adapter), AND my LR Baggs Paracoustic DI.

 

Previously, I'd get an annoying hum when I went into acoustic mode through the Baggs DI -- couldn't fault isolate but assumed it was the proximity of the DI to the power strip and One Spot.

 

With the George L's, no noise at all. The .155 cable easily tucks in behind the pedal board riser that holds the J12 controller, and those connectors . . God LOVE those connectors.

 

Sorry for the gushing, but I was sort of in the "gimmick" camp at one point. These things are truly a great idea come to life.

 

I bought a 20 ft .255 cable to make the connection between the pedal board and my rack to make sure I maintained signal and the quiet.