Time is the secret to learning how to play

[Compact Diss]

Time is the secret to learning how to play the guitar.

I can't name how many posts I have made concerning scales, timing, chords, anything and everything...

As I progress, the more I learn, the more I realize that the big secret in learning how to play the guitar is time.

This is how I have come to realize this. Over the past year or two. I have read and re-read many books concerning music(The Guitar Cookbook, Jazz Theory, Exercise Book, too many to name).

I have taken lessons on and off, both with good teachers and awful teachers.

I have done tabs.

I have bought guitar magazines and tweaked my amp and attempted to play the monthly tabs.

I have made countless threads on countless message boards.

I have gone to live shows, inlcuding live Jazz jams.

I have listened to music, everything from Jazz to Punk.

The fact for me remains that the more time goes by the more I know about playing guitar.

I do not want to know how to play songs. I want to read notes (I can finally, after hours of study), I want to look in music books and not just guitar books and understand symbols, I see things and I know what they mean(hours of reading, practicing).

Most of all, I am still just a beginner. I am still learning. Everyday I am learning. Today I spent 3.5 hours reading the Jazz theory book. I have read it before but really just skimmed through it.

I'm just trying to give a message to anyone out there who is new, I am still learning. I don't think it ever ends. Music is such a wide, huge world, there is so much to learn. Take your time. Practice scales, in about a year you will be able to understand where and how they work. There is so much to learn...ok, my 10 minute break from practicing is up, got to get back to my instrument.

Someday I will be able to call myself a musician, not just a guy who plays guitar.

 

Regarding good and bad teachers. I had a "not good" teacher for a little more than six months. I found a new teacher, very much more money but an hour lesson. I walked out of there and after reviewing my materials and the lesson at home. I can say I was taught more in that one hour than I was in six months of lessons. I could understand things and not just be able to put my fingers on the right strings and frets. A great teacher makes a 100% difference. Due to $$ problems I had to stop but I start up again with him on Wednesday and cannot wait!

[Jazz Guitar]

Normally I'd agree with you, however your rationale fails to explain the likes of Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, ...... and even Jeff Beck, who went hackwards instead of forward.

 

Moral of the story, desire is equally important as the time spent.

[EmptinesOf Youth]

personally, i think a teacher does nothing but hinder you from your own style. THere are many who say thats not true, but im not one of them. Im 16, and I have never had a teacher, yet just by mainly reading i can read notes and what not. Practice and developing your own style is the only thing someone should do...there will be a lot of people that diagree with that

[Compact Diss]

without desire I would not be where I am today

 

From Jazz Theory by Mark Levine:

 

"certain prerequisites to becoming a good jazz musician.

You must have:

 

Talent(ears, a sense of form)

Direction(exposure to the right music for you)

Education(teachers, mentors)

Ambition

 

Number 4-Ambition is perhaps the most important of all. I don't mean ambition in the sense of wanting to be a star, but in the sense of having the will, desire, and stamina to practice. If you do not have this quality, all the talent in the world means nothing."

 

jazz musician, rock musician this to me applies to any style of music

[Compact Diss]

geek, you have never had a teacher so therefore you cannot say that a teacher hinders your own style.

It's like me saying a Rolls Royce drives like shit, I can't I have never driven one.

[Blue Strat]

I've been thinking about taking lessons for quite a while. When I get the time I'm going to have to do that. I'm fairly set in my ways, so as far as a teacher moving me towards jazz or country or something I don't want to play isn't likely to happen. I would however like to learn some theory and how to sight-read music, more theory than reading, but I'm sure both will be useful.

 

Lessons can change your style, but only if you let them.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by Compact Diss:

without desire I would not be where I am today

 

From Jazz Theory by Mark Levine:

 

"certain prerequisites to becoming a good jazz musician.

You must have:

 

Talent(ears, a sense of form)

Direction(exposure to the right music for you)

Education(teachers, mentors)

Ambition

 

Number 4-Ambition is perhaps the most important of all. I don't mean ambition in the sense of wanting to be a star, but in the sense of having the will, desire, and stamina to practice. If you do not have this quality, all the talent in the world means nothing."

 

jazz musician, rock musician this to me applies to any style of music

Levine is my hero and can appear on my CDs anytime he wants. He was teaching at Berkley (not to be confused with "rock school" Berklee). He's a bay area biggie.

 

So he doesn't feel slighted, Jamey Aebersold can appear on my CDs any time he wants too.

 

Just no cranky old farts like the Paul Hindimith guy! Hope I got the spelling correct.

[EmptinesOf Youth]

no, but ive had plenty of friends who have, and they all play like robots

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by geek u.s.a.:

no, but ive had plenty of friends who have, and they all play like robots

That's what I was getting at in my post. They aren't feeling the music anymore, but that's not the instructor's doing. No matter what you play, if you read or not, you have to feel the rythym and work on the timing that you think is right for the music. That's also why I'm not too concerned if I ever learn to read music or not. It would be nice to be able to read music and play because you could do it in a pinch, but most of the time I'd still want to get what I was going to play in my head and really nail it, feel it in my bones.

[Compact Diss]

Damn Bluestrat, you sound like you know how to play the guitar to me!

In order to learn the notes I started out with a Hal Leonard instruction book, very simple very easy. Playing simple songs my kids would know but at least it taught me what the notes were(and where) and when I looked at sheet music I could then figure some things out.

Theory....welll still learning but the Jazz Theory book is a must have for myself--the book has taught me a lot. I can't say anything bad about it.

[musicalhair]

Hey geek usa, what you're observing in your freinds that have had teachers is either a reflection of them or bad teachers or bad chemistry between them, but try not to generalize (although it is very natural to do so).

 

I was "self taught" playing bass and guitar for about seven years before studying with a teacher and taking classes in college. I found nothing more inspiring than the "serious" study of music.

 

Nothing can keep you from finding you're own style, in fact serious study helped me refine and define my own style so that "my personal voice" I've been able to apply to every style of music I've been lucky enough to play (except hardcore "bebop" where I got my ass kicked like never before when I sat in with serious beboppers). Really, NOTHING can keep you from finding your voice on your instrument. What teachers might do is quickly force someone to find the gaps in their "style" see the difference between style and some kind of highly personal cliche (something I had to overcome, but then I honestly tried to puch my bounries from blues-rock kind of guy to being as versatile as possible).

 

A good teacher is nothing but helpful. A bad teacher should be run out of town, though .

 

To the thread's topic: the title of this thread is almost a double entenderre (sorry I can't spell). Time is the secret, because like Duke Ellington said "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing." Also, I read an interview with Larry Carlton where he was saying as an up and coming guitarist he was suddenly very unhappy with his playing so he sat down with some BB King recordings and found that the places he went to jump in and play his phrases were decidedly not where BB was putting his phrases. He concluded there was somthing wrong with his sense of where to play and where to sit out and he went to work on that aspect of his playing. The thread about economy picking versus alternate has a couple of posts about phrasing and how the different approaches to picking effect that, and phrasing is very much about time and timing and getting back to Duke Ellington, alt picking sort of builds in swing easier than economy.

 

And time is what it takes for some common but convuluted chord substitutions to sink in. I don't know how many times a teacher would explain and idea-- like a b5 sub, or the dim 7th chord/dom 7 b9 relationship-- and after being asked if I "got it" said yes. Then wrestling with these complicated ideas day after day after month, then like years later see some voice leading in a standard chord progression where "naturalness" of the sub leaps out at me and then I say "I got it".

 

But also, time must be spent wisely or we wouldn't ever learn such things. Just like it takes time to learn these things (techniques, tunes, theory whatever), that time must be spent learning it not watching Aqua Teen Hunger Force (number one in the hood, G) mashing out major scales over Master Shake's wisdom.

 

Speaking of time, I've got to go. I really really want to learn how to play Stella By Starlight, so I need to spend some time with it. Luckily I'm "only" 39 and still have time.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by geek u.s.a.:

no, but ive had plenty of friends who have, and they all play like robots

I've had plenty of lessons, from accomplished jazz players. Jazz players tend to learn how to swing and lag the beat. We usually don't sound like "Bender".

 

Perhaps if you take "lessons" from someone who likes metal hacks, they'll teach you to sound just like a robotic metal hack?

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Compact Diss:

Damn Bluestrat, you sound like you know how to play the guitar to me!

I'll take that as a compliment. I'm not great, but I must be doing something right 'cause I get compliments and the occasional, "Damn dude! How'd you do that?"

[revolead]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

Originally posted by Compact Diss:

Damn Bluestrat, you sound like you know how to play the guitar to me!

I'll take that as a compliment. I'm not great, but I must be doing something right 'cause I get compliments and the occasional, "Damn dude! How'd you do that?"

I'm in this club. I don't know it all, but I'm improving gradually. I don't really notice daily progress, but I remember what I was playing like 4 months ago, and I realize how much better I am now. Also, it's cool because all the kids at my old high school think I'm a guitar god. So I get a lot of respect from peers, especially only playing two years, but I don't feel like I'm good anyway. It's so intimidating listening to my metal CDs and realizing how much I could improve.

[jetboy]

like anything that is learned, you can remember it rote and spit it back, or understand it and evolve it into your own being.

 

Guitar lessons are like that, if you only memorize what you're shown, sure you can spit it back on demand but understanding what's given and synthesizing it into your own style is where it's at.

 

It takes a willing mind and a mature attitude to incorporate a specific excercise into ones own style. Sometimes that takes years to accomplish but knowledge is never a burden, in fact knowledge is enlightenment. because your compadres haven't gotten past the rote memory and reguritation of their lessons doesn't mean that you can't benefit.

 

Doesn't mean that you have to learn to sight read, but learning the basics of music theory can't possibly hurt your style or make you a robot, in fact it might free you from the basic cliches' of what you think you like!

[Funk Jazz]

you have to teach your teacher how to teach you.

 

you have to have a goal in mind, and be assertive enough to get there. taking lessons is not a passive experience, you have to make it interactive.

 

remember, you don't know what you don't know. that's why you pay someone to help. so have a little faith that your teacher is guiding you in the right direction.

 

time is important, but the amount of time is dictated by the quality of instruction.

[coyote]

An aphorism from an old self-help seminar system:

"Do the form long enough, and eventually the form begins to do you."

 

All those guys who sound like robots now at age 16 are gonna have mastered the fundamentals soon, and go on to sound like themselves but much better than the ones who didn't bother to master those fundamentals. I eagerly await their rise on the scene, as I'm tired of all these grunge/metal bands that can't really play.

 

Originally posted by geek u.s.a.:

no, but ive had plenty of friends who have, and they all play like robots

[J J]

i dont know, i got a friend that's been playing for about 5 years now and he still only does basic power chord rythems

 

Gets kind of borring, really.

[henryrobinett]

Now if you meant TIME is the secret to playing I'd agree. As in one's time or feel for time. Rhythm. Metronome. Listen. Apply in IN TIME. Yeah that's the secret.

 

But a program applied over time with consistency is the secret to learning how to play well in the quickest possible way.

 

Technique and music. Aesthetics, emotion and technique.

[DIAMOND DUST]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Normally I'd agree with you, however your rationale fails to explain the likes of Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, ...... and even Jeff Beck, who went hackwards instead of forward.

 

Moral of the story, desire is equally important as the time spent.

Anybody that would call JEFF BECK a hack cannot be taken seriously.I have officialy labeled you a moron.

[Sylver]

Originally posted by geek u.s.a.:

personally, i think a teacher does nothing but hinder you from your own style. THere are many who say thats not true, but im not one of them. Im 16, and I have never had a teacher, yet just by mainly reading i can read notes and what not. Practice and developing your own style is the only thing someone should do...there will be a lot of people that diagree with that

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

That's so funny. You're so young, it's kinda cute. You'll learn differently or will end up just leaving music behind.

 

1. Style doesn't come from a teacher.

 

2. No one was ever "hindered" by learning from those who have come before.

 

3. If you want to break the rules, you have to know what they are first. "Discovering" something on your own that a beginner learned in his first few lessons kinda puts you behind the curve so to speak, doesn't it?

 

"Oh, look, if I play these three notes together it sounds REALLY cool."

"Yes, that's called a chord."

 

Besides, I have heard this lame excuse for not taking lessons for years, and I have NEVER, EVER, heard anyone with this approach even come close to being a servicable musician. Well, there is "The Edge", but he kinda sucks. I KNOW he couldn't improvise over the blues.

 

I once new a guy who who insisted that tuning a guitar was cheating.

[Corner Pocket]

Music Education Matters. Period. Imagine trying to use a dictionary without ever having learned to read or write.

 

Music is a vast, rich and wonderful language. But like any language, there are rules and conventions that allow musicians to talk to each other. (In tonal music, anyway. Atonal music is a different planet.)

 

Whether music education comes through a clasical stream, or a jazz stream like the aforementioned Jamey Abersold, or through the school system doesn't really matter. As long as it is correct and well taught.

 

Those who insist on learning to play only by playing miss out on a large piece of the music puzzle. They might develop a pretty good ear, they might even be blessed with the gift of perfect pitch. But learning and understanding the rules and structures of tonal music makes everthing easier and better.

 

I think part of the problem lies in the tendency of people to prefer instant gratification. I can teach a kid to play Green Day songs so that they come off as quite good for a "campfire" performance. For a kid that's really into learning guitar, you can accomplish this in less than a week. But to teach him why the structure of the song is what it is, and why the chords work together the way they do takes a lot longer. You can't teach chord structure until they understand scales. You can't teach scales until they understand notes. You can't teach someone to tie their shoes until they know what shoes are. This process takes too much time for most people.

 

So they develop their own "style". Yay!!! But usually that style doesn't grow much past the musical equivalent of "See Dick. See Dick Run."

 

If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

 

Paul

[Blue Strat]

There's been a shitload of good songs written by folks that don't have a clue as to how chords are supposed to work together. Probably most of the blues music written between 1900 and 1950 was done that way. They just sat down and played until they found two or three chords that sound good together, polished it up a bit, and added lyrics.

 

You don't have to know theory to play or write good music. You need to know theory to explain why it works like it does.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by DIAMOND DUST:

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Normally I'd agree with you, however your rationale fails to explain the likes of Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, ...... and even Jeff Beck, who went hackwards instead of forward.

 

Moral of the story, desire is equally important as the time spent.

Anybody that would call JEFF BECK a hack cannot be taken seriously.I have officialy labeled you a moron.

Thanks Dusty. You go listen to "Guitar Shop" and I'll got listen to Kurt Rosewinkel.

 

Sorry, but I think Jeff Beck is going in reverse. He's been regressing for the last 24 years or so. From my vantage point, "Wired" was the last good thing he made.

 

BTW, you really wouldn't want to compare Jeff Beck to Kurt Rosenwinkel. You see the latter is a very accomplished musician.

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

You don't have to know theory to play or write good music. You need to know theory to explain why it works like it does.

Yes. But that's only if you're brilliant enough and talented enough to HAVE IT. Then others need theory too figure out what you did naturally. Certainly you don't HAVE TO HAVE a thorough understanding of theory to play or write music. But it can certainly help in putting it all together. One doesn't have to understand verbs and nouns, metaphors, similies and sentence structure to write a book either. But it certainly helps when understanding the intricacies of language. In the long run and the short run it can't help but help.

[coyote]

I disagree with this statement. When I was a teen, there was wild original music floating around in my head. I lacked the ability to get it out of my head and into a medium where it could be shared.... music education was the key. With the tools provided by that education I no longer had to grope blindly for the next chord, or for the contrapuntal melody soaring in the background. In addition, the instrumental fundamentals I learned via those lessons helped me express those ideas on guitar, which served me quite well for a number of years.

 

Originally posted by bluestrat:

You don't have to know theory to play or write good music. You need to know theory to explain why it works like it does.

[Sylver]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

There's been a shitload of good songs written by folks that don't have a clue as to how chords are supposed to work together. Probably most of the blues music written between 1900 and 1950 was done that way. They just sat down and played until they found two or three chords that sound good together, polished it up a bit, and added lyrics.

I disagree. The early blues artists DID have instruction. Granted, it wasn't formal education with traditional notation, nor was it hard-core classical or jazz theory.

 

But, just because Albert King's uncle said, "Put your hand here like this, then slide up to the next dot when you feel the change comin'. Now you can throw a little lick in this box to make it sound fancy." ***, doesn't mean that little Albert wasn't learning theory from a teacher. He didn't invent the blues scale, 7th chords, or the blues changes.

 

Neither did Robert Johnson, or Lemon Jefferson, et al. They knew how chords and scales worked because they were taught by someone! Regardless of the fact that most of them could write the music down, early American music was passed down by tradition, and by this tradition did it evolve. To say that they invented it themselves and/or that they "didn't have a clue" is pretty inaccurate, IMO.

 

Now, if you want to amend that to say that the ability to play music is not constrained by the ability to conceptualize or notate music , I would agree with that.

 

*** This little Albert King story is fabricated. I don't know who showed Albert how to play, but I know that SOMEONE did.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by Sylver:

Originally posted by bluestrat:

There's been a shitload of good songs written by folks that don't have a clue as to how chords are supposed to work together. Probably most of the blues music written between 1900 and 1950 was done that way. They just sat down and played until they found two or three chords that sound good together, polished it up a bit, and added lyrics.

I disagree. The early blues artists DID have instruction. Granted, it wasn't formal education with traditional notation, nor was it hard-core classical or jazz theory.

 

But, just because Albert King's uncle said, "Put your hand here like this, then slide up to the next dot when you feel the change comin'. Now you can throw a little lick in this box to make it sound fancy." ***, doesn't mean that little Albert wasn't learning theory from a teacher. He didn't invent the blues scale, 7th chords, or the blues changes.

 

Neither did Robert Johnson, or Lemon Jefferson, et al. They knew how chords and scales worked because they were taught by someone! Regardless of the fact that most of them could write the music down, early American music was passed down by tradition, and by this tradition did it evolve. To say that they invented it themselves and/or that they "didn't have a clue" is pretty inaccurate, IMO.

 

Now, if you want to amend that to say that the ability to play music is not constrained by the ability to conceptualize or notate music , I would agree with that.

 

*** This little Albert King story is fabricated. I don't know who showed Albert how to play, but I know that SOMEONE did.

For the most part I agree, but riddle me dis, didn't you figure out a few pentatonics by ear, before you ever saw them written down or were shown on the instrument? I know I had 2 patterns completely figured out by ear before I ever saw a music theory class. I'm sure listening to all those Allman Brothers records made pentatonics click in my head.

 

Since blues is so pentatonic based, that sound caught on and became the "blues". That might sound "circular", but it's the truth. Given an 8 note scale, humans seem to like a certain 5 of those eight.

[Sylver]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

... didn't you figure out a few pentatonics by ear, before you ever saw them written down or were shown on the instrument? I know I had 2 patterns completely figured out by ear before I ever saw a music theory class. I'm sure listening to all those Allman Brothers records made pentatonics click in my head.

Absolutely, but then again, that's not exactly inventing it yourself, is it? Whether your are intentionallly trying to cop a lick, or you've just listened to it so much that is happens naturally, you are still standing on the shoulders of those that have come before you. I kinda see that as "subliminal" instruction, lol.

 

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Since blues is so pentatonic based, that sound caught on and became the "blues". That might sound "circular", but it's the truth. Given an 8 note scale, humans seem to like a certain 5 of those eight.

Yeah, funny how that is. There are a bunch of asian scales that are five note scales as I recall. Mostly Japanese, but some others.

 

But in analyzing the Blues Pentatonic specifically, it makes complete sense in this case. The notes all outline chord tones in the blues changes. In the context of the blues, they sort of become rest or target tones for the blues soloist. Even if the player lands on a note that is not a note in the current chord, it's a note that sets up the chord tone itself so well that you can feel what the next note will be.

 

I only over-analyze like this when I'm not playing.

[Corner Pocket]

Bluestrat:

 

You are correct, you don't need to know theory to write or play good music. (I think write is the wrong word to use. Make-up or create would be a better word.) But knowing and understanding music theory allows you to write and communicate (arguably)better and more challenging music. Knowing and understanding theory allows you to more quickly understand, interpret and correctly play better and more challenging music. Knowing and understanding music theory allow to to improvise more creatively, and helps you play in context with the "Key of the Moment." Just because the Key signature at the top of the page shows no sharps of flats doesn't mean you always use a Dorian scale on a D minor chord. It might be correct, it might not. I can tell by looking and I know what to do, and what not to do. Avoid notes are called avoid notes for a reason. Eventually some will figure this out intuitively on their own, but education is soooooo much quicker.

 

Knowing and understanding theory allows you to write harmonically and melodically valid music, without an instrument under your fingertips. (see Beethoven, Ludwig Van for an example.)

 

I'm a big fan of Blues Music. What good blues lacks in musical sophistication it more than makes up in emotional content. That's style. That's really important to well played, well performed music. I will NEVER take the position that theory is everything. But it is a damn big piece of the pie and shouldn't be ignored.

 

And to Mr. Nice Jazz Guitar Guy,

 

Yes, most of us did figure out basic pentatonic soloing by ear. On the same token, most of us started with sentences like "Me hungry", or "Go now bathroom" when we learned spoken language by ear. But through the miracle of education, we develop more advanced skills in the use of language that allow us to communicate on both a more precise and a more emotional level.

 

Where is the value in avoiding that education when it comes to music?

 

Yes, it seems this thread has hit a sore spot with me. :-)

 

Paul