10" speakers have more detail and are smoother than 12" speakers?

[petros]

Are 10" speakers smoother than 12" speakers?

Or do they just have less bass?

[Dave da Dude]

They're just ... different.

 

Which is better, 2 x 12's, 2 x 10's; or 4 x 10's, or 4 x 12's? Depends on what you want.

 

Myself, I like 12's (or even 15's, do they make an 18, maybe a 24? ), but that's because in my audio infancy (1960's) bigger was better. Now (both in my opinion and in technology advances) I'm not sure that's necessarily true.

 

I'll let other, more knowledgable, people get into more detail on this subject.

 

Dave

[petros]

I am just curious if in general a single 10" speaker tend to be "smoother" sounding than a single 12" speaker, putting all other factors aside.

 

How about this generalization:

"A 10" will likely provide you with a little better detail than a 12". A 12" will likely produce a little more depth in the low end."

[BlueZet]

I know I did slightly prefer the 'tighter' sound of my 4x10 blues deville to that of my 'loose' 1x12 hotrod deluxe, but the size and weight made me change to the smaller amp

[doc taz]

Don't forget a cabinet's design. It plays as much of a role on the overall sound as your choice of speaker.

 

Ever stand in front of a good Marshall 4x12? Notice how tight and detailed sounding those beasts are. The closed back design has a lot to do with it. It does sound looser when using the lower watt speakers; most of the newer ones come with 75 watt types.

 

You want it tighter and more dynamic, with a lot of detail? Try 'em with a set of 150 watt EV's. That's exactly what Steve Morse does (or used to, anyway, he's now using Peaveys with their Scorpion speakers, which are like the EV's).

 

On the other hand, a good open back design loosens up even the tightest sounding speaker.

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

Myself, I like 12's (or even 15's, do they make an 18, maybe a 24? )

 

Dave

Hey Dave!

 

Yes, they do make 18" speakers, usually for sound reinforcement (PA's). I know that Carvin sells one type of 18" speaker. I've never heard of anyone using an 18" in a guitar amplifier, but I've got a single 15" that sounds quite good. The Peavey Delta Blues has a 15" speaker, and Randall Amplifiers makes a 2 x 15" Warhead cabinet for Dimebag of Pantera.

 

I've got a 50W Marshall JCM 800 type clone powering a 1 x 15" closed back MDF cabinet, and that thing just kills! It's 22"W x 17.5"H x 16"D, loaded with a Weber VST C15CA "California" speaker, capable of handling 80W. I should probably build a second cab like that so I'll have two 15's going!!

[dave251]

Ten's lack a bit too much bottom for my taste....brightness and detail are more a function of speaker design...

 

For years on the roadhouse circuit, I used a 12" Altec in my 100 watt tube combo, and a converted Bassman bottom that carried a 15" JBL D130...it was plenty bright and detailed for the country/swing/roadhouse rock that we played...also very efficient and LOUD.

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by dave251:

Ten's lack a bit too much bottom for my taste....brightness and detail are more a function of speaker design...

 

For years on the roadhouse circuit, I used a 12" Altec in my 100 watt tube combo, and a converted Bassman bottom that carried a 15" JBL D130...it was plenty bright and detailed for the country/swing/roadhouse rock that we played...also very efficient and LOUD.

A lot of the lack of bottom with a 10" speaker can be cured with the proper cabinet design. A 10" speaker in a ported cabinet will really push a lot of bass. For open backed cabinets, a bigger speaker is usually a plus, but not always. I had the C15CA California in an open backed cab, but the tone just plain sucked with certain amps. That's why I built the non-resonant MDF cabinet loaded with the 15".

[Funk Jazz]

if 10's have so much less bass, why do bass players regularly use them? 4x10 and 2x10 seem to be some of the most common bass cab designs for smaller combo's.

 

the low end would seem more a function of certain 10" speaker manufacturers than the character of 10" speakers in general.

 

'A 10" will likely provide you with a little better detail than a 12". A 12" will likely produce a little more depth in the low end.'

i have to disagree on this one. i would characterize 10's as having a more consistent and smooth mid-range, a little less "sizzle", and a much tighter low end than 12's. i think you will get more "sparkle" or "chime" in a 12". that's what i would call the equivolent of "detail" anyway.

 

that is of course, all things being equal: eq, cab design, power amp, etc.

 

this is a pretty tough generalization, especially because we are not really factoring in closed/open back design, what type of power section, guitar, etc. i mean, a tele through a vibroverb and a 335 through a vibroverb are WAY different beasts. not to mention clean headroom volumes vs pushed/gain volumes.

 

hope that helps! it's just my humble opinion of course i did work in a guitar shop for four years and spent a lot of time comparison shopping so i don't think i'm very far off base.

[Caevan O’Shite]

O.K.- I can tell you this- a 10" speaker will have a quicker, more immediate attack and a more accurate reproduction of an electric guitar's sound than a 12" speaker of the exact same design and materials and in the same condition.

 

This is simply because the smaller diameter speaker is less work to move back and forth.

 

Now, I have noted that 12" speakers seem to have more "shimmer" and "harmonic swirl" than 10" speakers, probably due to the mechanical and electrical inefficiencies (compared to a 10" of the same type). So, more "detail" depends on the source and subject of said detail. To me, 12's have more "detail" in the overall sound as tone producers, but not as hi-fi acurate tone re-producers. Dig? Grok? Got it? Good!

 

Edit: (These statements are made in consideration of the speaker in question being used for electric guitar.)

 

As has been pointed out, cab design- especially when the cab and speakers are thought of as a whole by the designer- has a lot to do with the final sound. A large group of, say, forty 2" (yeah, two-inch, just for example) speakers would have a very large wave-front of air being moved, and if the cabinet was properly designed, would sound very full and bassy. One 15" in a crappy cab could sound weak.

[Dave da Dude]

bluestrat,

 

Thanks for the info on the 18" speakers. You have to understand that when I was your age, bigger was better; for speakers too

 

Another general note, the names EV, Altec(-Lansing) and JBL are names near and dear to my heart (from the '60's again). I'm glad to here they're still being used. I noticed at church this past Sunday that they were using a big pair of EV's on the stage (among others).

 

On cabinet design (and also speaker design and materials for the same size), IMHO, the design of the speaker and cabinet CAN more than make up for any perceived difficiancy in speaker size. Whether or not it WILL depends on the design and materials used.

 

For me, it will always be hard to go "smaller", even though I know some very good bass players and cabinets use 10" speakers. I personally would prefer a pair (or quad ) of well made, well designed 12" speakers over 10's. I think the advances in technology over the past forty years can overcome the physical stroke / dispersion limitations of the 12" speaker. I think that 15" speakers can still have limitations outside of the bass range, but I could be convinced

 

Get what YOU like the sound of. I've found that sometimes just the perception that what I've bought is the best keeps me happy

 

Dave

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

Another general note, the names EV, Altec(-Lansing) and JBL are names near and dear to my heart (from the '60's again). I'm glad to here they're still being used. I noticed at church this past Sunday that they were using a big pair of EV's on the stage (among others).

Dave

I'm completely sold on Weber VST's speakers. Both of my 50 watt Bradley's (TM ) have Weber speakers in their cabs. The JCM 800 clone (Bradley MV-50) has two 4 ohm C12GB "Thames" speakers in a 2 x 12" closed back poplar cabinet for a 2 ohm load and a 160W power handling capacity. The High-Gain Bradley has the 1 x 15" MDF cab with the "California". Weber Vintage Sound Technologies

 

My little Champ clone (Bradley SE-5) has a 1967 Jensen C10Q that I got out of my grandpaw's flea-market stuff. It was in two matching DIY boxes (that looked like shit, I might add) with two Jensen's each. I would have made a 4 x 10" for my first cab, but two of the speakers were blown. I still have them, and I'm going to get them re-coned one of these days. Probably use them for an Ampeg Jet or Gibson GA-8T Discoverer clone. A 2 x 10" Jet would kick ass!

[nonfcomm]

Dave, they make 24'' and larger, typically for subs. I think I remember seeing a 32'' sub once, but I am not sure.

 

Daniel

[njrocker]

has anybody tried a gibson goldtone GA-30RV? they have a 10" and a 12"

[Dave da Dude]

nonfcomm,

Dave, they make 24'' and larger, typically for subs. I think I remember seeing a 32'' sub once, but I am not sure.

Ohhhhhhhh

 

Sorry, I have to leave now. It's personal, but I'm carrying an issue of GP in front of me

 

Dave the ... Overwhelmed

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

"Sorry, I have to leave now. It's personal, but I'm carrying an issue of GP in front of me "

 

-Dave the ... Overwhelmed

Aahh, Dave goes for big woofers, eh?

 

"National Guitaraphic" magazines with the pages all stuck together...

[KARL FISHER]

I have not experimented much with 10", but will tell you this about 12" speakers- quality, construction, and cabinet make big differences.

From the mid 1980's to late 1990's, I used a Marshall copy cabinet I made from 3/4" plywood, loaded with 4 Radio Shack 12" musical instrument speakers (no longer made). I thought it sounded good with my Marshall Tube head and Holmes solid state combo.

When I got my Peavey Classic 100 tube head, I was not as pleased with the cabinet, so I bought the Peavey 412MS (slanted/top) caabinet which is loaded with Peavey Sheffield speakers. They are supposed to have that "British" sound. I still did not get the "Skynyrd" classic 1970's sound I was searching for.

Then it hit me...In my two stereo speakers were expensive Peavey Scorpion 150 watt each sound reinforcement speakers. (Heavy ass magnets!!!)

These speakers have truse heavy paper cones like the ones used in the 1970's and 1980's. They were purchased in the mid 1980's. I built a 2x12 cabinet (closed back) for my Peavey 100 watt tube head, and you won't believe the sound. It is the ONLY cabinet I use now.

The only thing I ise the 412MS cab for is to place the 2x12 cab and head on so the little one's cant reach the knobs on my amp!!

 

The 412MS is still good for an acoustic run through the clean channel, PA, or Metal type sound, but not "Classic 1970's rock".

 

Karl

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by KARL FISHER:

I have not experimented much with 10", but will tell you this about 12" speakers- quality, construction, and cabinet make big differences.

From the mid 1980's to late 1990's, I used a Marshall copy cabinet I made from 3/4" plywood, loaded with 4 Radio Shack 12" musical instrument speakers (no longer made). I thought it sounded good with my Marshall Tube head and Holmes solid state combo.

When I got my Peavey Classic 100 tube head, I was not as pleased with the cabinet, so I bought the Peavey 412MS (slanted/top) caabinet which is loaded with Peavey Sheffield speakers. They are supposed to have that "British" sound. I still did not get the "Skynyrd" classic 1970's sound I was searching for.

Then it hit me...In my two stereo speakers were expensive Peavey Scorpion 150 watt each sound reinforcement speakers. (Heavy ass magnets!!!)

These speakers have truse heavy paper cones like the ones used in the 1970's and 1980's. They were purchased in the mid 1980's. I built a 2x12 cabinet (closed back) for my Peavey 100 watt tube head, and you won't believe the sound. It is the ONLY cabinet I use now.

The only thing I ise the 412MS cab for is to place the 2x12 cab and head on so the little one's cant reach the knobs on my amp!!

 

The 412MS is still good for an acoustic run through the clean channel, PA, or Metal type sound, but not "Classic 1970's rock".

 

Karl

You don't happen to have those four Rat-Shack 12's do ya? I heard that was an essential part of Kurt Cobain's tone. He used those cheesey speakers in a Marshall 4 x 12" cabinet.

[aeon]

Originally posted by njrocker:

has anybody tried a gibson goldtone GA-30RV? they have a 10" and a 12"

I have recorded it...player was using both a Tele with a Harmonic Design Super-90 in the bridge as well as a Les Paul 57 GoldTop reissue...

 

I loved the amp...sweet colored cleans, nice dynamic breakup and rich grind...perfect for pop, classic rock, blues, etc...but no metal or nu-metal tones, heh.

 

the 10" and 12" differences were exagerrated by the fact the 12" Vintage 30 had been replaced by a Alnico Blue...so it was a 12" G12 Alnico Blue in there with a 10" Vintage V30...but in terms of having flexibility for micing, placement, tracking and layering, it was sweet, sweet, sweet.

[WaterMan]

Since we're on the subject of speakers, anyone tried ToneTubbys? I understand a number of players, including Clapton and Santana, are using them. They're Hempcones (no wonder Santana likes them ) with Alnico magnets.

[Dave da Dude]

WaterMan,

Since we're on the subject of speakers, anyone tried ToneTubbys?

No, but ".. tell me more, tell me more .."

 

Who are they built by?

 

How much for a dime bag? I mean, the speakers

 

Dave

[WaterMan]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

WaterMan,

Since we're on the subject of speakers, anyone tried ToneTubbys?

No, but ".. tell me more, tell me more .."

 

Who are they built by?

 

How much for a dime bag? I mean, the speakers

 

Dave

www.tonetubby.com

 

I have their 1x12 cab which sounds absolutely incredible. About to get a 2x10" Dr. Z cab, after which I'll be able to provide a comparison.

 

I'd be interested to hear if anyone else on the forum has tried the ToneTubbys.

[Dave da Dude]

www.tonetubby.com

Looks cool

 

I especially like this comment,

H1E Our original Hempcone with an Enzyme for extended highs.

Man, I don't know if I can handle EXTENDED highs, I'm gettin' too old

[KARL FISHER]

bluestrat, YES, I still have the ratshack speakers. I use two each in a set of pa skeakers I built, that also included a ratshack 6" musical instrument? speaker in each. they don't make them anymore either. In fact, I have three more (7 total)of those 12" speakers. At one time when I had my Marshall head, I built two Marshall copy 4x12 cabs, and used the ratshack speakers (money issues). At the time they sounded good.

 

Karl

[Major Tom]

Then it hit me...In my two stereo speakers were expensive Peavey Scorpion 150 watt each sound reinforcement speakers. (Heavy ass magnets!!!)

These speakers have truse heavy paper cones like the ones used in the 1970's and 1980's. They were purchased in the mid 1980's. I built a 2x12 cabinet (closed back) for my Peavey 100 watt tube head, and you won't believe the sound. It is the ONLY cabinet I use now.

A friend of mine gave me an old non-functional PV Renoun (gag, puke) loaded with 2 12" Scorpions of that same vintage. I put one into a heavily modded PV Bravo (all tube 2xEL84 1x12) and that amp came alive (original Eminence speaker was crap). It is not a very efficient speaker according to PV's specs and my experience, but I think it makes a great guitar speaker. Detailed, balanced, I get a lot of highs, but not harsh; very musical. One thing I did, though - it has a mesh dust cap, I used black acylic artists paint to close up the mesh to where it is now a solid dust cap except for a 3/4" circle in the middle. I figured the heat dissipation would not be an issue in a 20 watt amp, and that it might increase its efficiency a little, it might have also added some high end...

[KARL FISHER]

My Scorpions are all paper including the cone. They seem very efficient, though I did not pull out the original paperwork before writing this.

They also have replaceable baskets. Remove a few hex screws and the magnet, pull out the old and put in the new--and the concert goes on!

 

Karl

 

Actually, they may be rated at 300watts each.