SEHpicker Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Sometimes there are great guitar leads that are so excellent that I try to imitate them as closely as possible. Of course there are TONS of tunes that seem to be just made for improvising. But (IMHO) certain lead breaks shouldn't be messed with...kinda like changing a Bach or Beethoven classic. One example would be Dicky Bett's "Blue Sky". The riffs are so much a part of the song that it wouldn't be "Blue Sky" any other way. I only bring this up because it was the subject of heated debate at an open jam session I attended last week...alot of opinions...what do you guys (& gals) think? SEHpicker The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it." George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steevo Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 I agree. Some of those leads you speak of are better than the lyrics ... and you wouldn't change the words. So, go note for note and save the improv for something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 I think the key for me is, "Does the solo restate the melody in its own way, or does it lend itself to jamming?". And also, "What sort of progression am I soloing over?" That said...what does Dickey play live? Does he play the same solo everytime he does "Blue Sky" or does he use what he recorded on "Eat a Peach" as a framework to work within, exploring new ideas? It is possible to take a set-in-stone solo, say George Harrison's "Something" for example, and use that to work within a framework and come up with something truly your own. But, you may not want to, and that's okay, too. That said...I believe a lot of the great solos were somewhat of a matter of chance...the guitar player, over several takes, decided he liked that particular take the best. He may end up playing it a bit differently live. Who knows? "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 I'll agree that certain solos should be 'set in stone' just like you wouldn't jam to a Bach tune. In fact, some famous rock shows I've seen have pissed me off because someone takes their solo and jams instead or changes the melody singing. I always really liked bands that sounded just like their recordings (this is a far cry from today's lip sync crap). For me it's a toss up in the cover bands I've been in. Something like 'Reeling in the Years' is a note for note sort of thing because it's so recognizable. On some Hendrix or Clapton songs I always just learned the signiture licks and then jammed in between. I guess it comes down to jam tunes or more structured tunes. A lot has to do with the solo's length as well. An 8 or 16 bar solo is more a candidate for 'lick for lick' than a three minute guitar jam song. -David http://www.garageband.com/artist/MichaelangelosMuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Originally posted by DC: I'll agree that certain solos should be 'set in stone' just like you wouldn't jam to a Bach tune. In fact, some famous rock shows I've seen have pissed me off because someone takes their solo and jams instead or changes the melody singing. I always really liked bands that sounded just like their recordings (this is a far cry from today's lip sync crap). For me it's a toss up in the cover bands I've been in. Something like 'Reeling in the Years' is a note for note sort of thing because it's so recognizable. On some Hendrix or Clapton songs I always just learned the signiture licks and then jammed in between. I guess it comes down to jam tunes or more structured tunes. A lot has to do with the solo's length as well. An 8 or 16 bar solo is more a candidate for 'lick for lick' than a three minute guitar jam song.I like bands that sound just like their recordings, too, but I also admire players that can reinterpret their tunes to fit a given situation. Pete Townshend performing "Won't Get Fooled Again" on solo acoustic guitar is a classic example of that...as are Clapton's three different versions of "Layla" (not saying you have to like 'em all, just using that as an example...) Hearing the evolutionary process in how a song idea becomes a demo, and a demo becomes a record, is essential to that, IMHO. A good chronicle of that type of process are the Beatles' Anthology CDs. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 I think you need more lick for lick stuff on dual part melody lines like in something like Blue Sky... On the other hand, Whippin' Post wouldn't BE whippin' post with totally worked out solo's IMHO... I could see the arguement being different in a band vs open jam situation. In a band, you're making a group decision and expect once it's been decided to note for note each player will get it together... In an open jam, you've got the "have's" and "have nots" as far as the knowledge of worked out solos... If I went to an open jam and someone complained I didn't play some solo note for note... I would laugh... YMMV. guitplayer I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Dan Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Well, Allman Brothers was and is known for being a jam band. Clapton is an improviser, on some songs more than others. Jimi certainly stretched out a lot, as his live albums show. At one point, this was ground-breaking in Pop music, where the format was the 2:30 single. In Cream's case, when they played Fillmore West, the audience yelled out "Just PLAY, man!" and they did, really applying jazz improvization to rock and blues, something the Bay area groups like the Dead, Santana, Quicksilver, and others were doing all the time. There are melodies and certain phrases that define a song, besides the chord progression. Beyond that, there's room for improvising, discovering boundaries, and challenging the musicians. "music heals" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teahead Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Originally posted by Steevo: I agree. Some of those leads you speak of are better than the lyrics ... and you wouldn't change the words. So, go note for note and save the improv for something else. How many people are truly moved through riffs,licks or solos compared to lyrics?Thinking outside of the guitar players box. Pedal Clips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_dog Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 u a bitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndara Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 This is such a touchy subject. Ive played in bands for 27 years now and most of the band members would say just jam, as long as we have the tune down where people would recognize it. If there was a signiture lick like "Running with the Devil" obviously you wouldnt put your own lick in. I beleive as long as you put the "signiture" licks in and then improvise the rest your fine. If you follow exactly the way the recording is your improvising skills will fall by the wayside. While your improvising, pick out a few licks from the song and throw them in. This way here, you dont have to be bothered learning note for note....be orginal. One more thing in regards to this subject,,Im in a band now with this guitarist whos main instrument is the Violin. He is classicaly trained and has played with the Hartford Symphony and other orchestras. He picked up the guitar about 10 yrs. ago and he is a monster player. Techniqe wise he is great. But he cant improvise. He is so "by the book" everything he plays has to be exactly like the recording. This comes from his classical background. In closing (whew)I just think improvising is a way for you to put your own stamp on a song and to grow as a musician. Thanks for listening,,John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Originally posted by Teaheed: Originally posted by Steevo: I agree. Some of those leads you speak of are better than the lyrics ... and you wouldn't change the words. So, go note for note and save the improv for something else. How many people are truly moved through riffs,licks or solos compared to lyrics?Thinking outside of the guitar players box.Oh, I've heard quite a few people truly moved by licks. Easy example...go to a blues club, and listen to the people howl when the guitarist hits a hot lick. A great guitar player can really do that for you. Speaking of the Allman Brothers, the first time I heard "Don't Want You No More/It Ain't My Cross To Bear"...at the end of Don't Want You...where it modulates down a half step from C to B...pauses, and, I believe it's Dickey who comes in with that lick...the opening to "It Ain't My Cross to Bear"...just fricking ripped my guts out. Still does. So simple, but the way he plays it just tears me up. Or Carlos...a different emotion, that sensual, sexual Latin thing in his playing...turns every lady into a dark eyed lusty senorita. Oh yeah, lyrics can move ya, but so can well placed and well played licks. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steevo Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Yeah, Tedster. I'd rather listen to and be moved by the guitar work on Hotel California than try to figure out what they're stabbing with their steely knives... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Dan Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Well, I would still like to write one good song! there must be a thousand guitar players for every good song writer! but, still, I love to hear that singing guitar ... the great ones can and could do it with very few notes played the right way at the right time ... BB, Bloomfield, Clapton, Peter Green .... "music heals" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teahead Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 As a fellow guitar player it would be silly of me to deny that riffs and guitar parts have inspired me greatly. However the song provides the platform from which these guitar parts are allowed to shine. Universal appeal of lyrics and vocal melody have ensured that many great songs survive in spite of not containing any legendary licks or memorable fills. If we think of the song as a vehicle with which we move people then our humble instruments can, at best, be considered wheels. The engine driving that song is undeniably the lyrics and the melody with which they are delivered. Unless you can't see the wood for the guitars? Pedal Clips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyote Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Back in the day, Bach and all the other masters were expected to improvise upon the themes they wrote. In the modern day, MJQ took those themes and jammed on them in a jazz context. Many others have taken classics and jammed on them in jazz, symphonic, and rock contexts. No music ought be considered so sacrosanct that we cannot experiment and have some fun with it. Originally posted by DC: I'll agree that certain solos should be 'set in stone' just like you wouldn't jam to a Bach tune. I used to think I was Libertarian. Until I saw their platform; now I know I'm no more Libertarian than I am RepubliCrat or neoCON or Liberal or Socialist. This ain't no track meet; this is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baronedo Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 You will hear so called purists say it's a sin to cop a lick but here's my 2 cents on this topic. Great guitarists, (Hendrix, Clapton, SRV, and countless others) have been coping licks for years (ever listen to Clapton's solo on Strange Brew and compare it to Albert King's Crosscut Saw?). Ever hear SRV's big bend licks compared to Albert King's - sound similar? Some solos are indeed masterpieces that are worth emulating, which I openly do cop most of the licks on, mainly as a tribute to the song and the guitarist. The key element though, which I will openly tell any so called purist critic, is that I copped the lick not because I had to, but because I chose to. There's a big difference between learning and understanding the lick versus just blindly memorizing it. I believe every guitar player should grow, develop, and be able to improvise to a degree and part of that development is learning from others. But instead of just coping licks, learn why they work and how you can use them or expand on them (i.e. is it a minor pentatontic pattern that sounds neat?, or maybe a Dorian pattern?, etc.). In summary, grow your talent but don't be afraid to selectively borrow from others - all the guitar greats have done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndara Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Tedster, what you said is so true. When a certain lick or phrase can do that to ya,,,damn, its almost better than sex. I have to share this with you...it was the biggest compliment of my life. Ever have one of those great nights when every thing you did was just so on it felt like you were leaving your body? I've had a few, and this one night the emotion that was comming out of my fingers and my guitar was unbelievable. After the set was over this woman came up to me and said i sent chills down her back and made the hair on her arms stand up. Needless to say, my wife wouldnt let me take her home with us, but I thanked her nonetheless. Thats one of the greatest compliments someone can give you I think, knowing you reached someone in that way. Thanks for listening once again. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teahead Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Very well said, each individuals personal selection of what to play and what to, try, and improve upon is a massive influence on their musical vocabulary. One that should not be restricted for any reasons. The original song provides the colours but the brush strokes you use should come from somewhere else. I enjoy nothing more than discovering by chance that a phrase I believed to be my own creation has in fact been unconciously stolen. It shows you're paying attention. Pedal Clips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted February 25, 2003 Share Posted February 25, 2003 Originally posted by Teaheed: Very well said, each individuals personal selection of what to play and what to, try, and improve upon is a massive influence on their musical vocabulary. One that should not be restricted for any reasons. The original song provides the colours but the brush strokes you use should come from somewhere else. I enjoy nothing more than discovering by chance that a phrase I believed to be my own creation has in fact been unconciously stolen. It shows you're paying attention.Good point. I have a view similar to most here, I'll choose to duplicate certain "melody" signature licks, heads of songs and so on, but prefer to leave room to improv using the vocabulary of that songs genre. When I'm "in the zone", I can clearly hear and play melodies from my heart to my head to my hands and that seems to create an impact in the crowd that's more emotionally connected than flashing up and down scales or repetitive fast patterns... not that those aren't also valid methods of building emotion and tension, but I prefer to use them sparingly... they tend to have greater impact that way. BTW, I don't think the original post in this thread was intended to mean that guitar licks or melodies were in any way superior to or a replacement for sung lyrics. He didn't mention lyrics at all one way or another... simply asked opinions about learning things note for note. Teaheed, thanks for writing a post that shared your thoughts without also attacking someone else. Nice job. guitplayer I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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