Notation vs Tabulature (long post)

[Nollykin]

Originally posted by Mile:

Tabs... Who needs them?!

Well, kids do. They bring me all kinds of tabs. I want to learn this, I want to learn that

Than, I explain them the power of the notes: You can't tell whether if it's eight or half note from tabs. I like combination of both. Notes and tabs. That's where programs like Power Tab come in handy. From sheet you can tell harmonies, key in which you play... Everything. From tab:nothing.

But kids want to know new MTV hit ASAP. And they don't care were can you play G on second string

Hold up a minute, mate. You've got to watch what you say - generalisation is good - but please dont put ALL of us kids in the same book.

 

Heres the score - us "kids" (myself being one... 17 years of age-old-goodness) arent all like that. Myself, I dont read much music at all - but I knowwhat it is on about thanks to an attempt at piano lessons years back. Thus I have progressed using notation AND tablature.

 

But I digress, I wont get into the whole "stop putting us all together" thing.

 

I guess, I do agree with you. I play my guitar slowly, I build up my chords from easy to hard. I try some power chords, but stick to opens and I'm struggling with my lead playing. But most people I know, the 3 people I know who play guitar my age, just want to bash out the power chords and learn the song as soon as possible... oh - and if that isnt bad enough, they like to D-Tune.

 

A mate of mine, Tim, hasnt got a guitar, but 3 of my friends and I all do. Nathan has a guitar and is very good - he is learning to read music and tablature and is being taught more notation than tabs. He is quite good at it, and appreciates the need for lead, rythm AND the hated power chord. David, who has had a guitar 1 month longer than me, never plays his, and if he does, its just fiddling with power chords.

 

Tim comes around my house a lot. Whats the first thing he does? Drop D. ARGH!! IT FRUSTRATES ME! Then comes the "Hey Nolly, chuck us the tabs to that manson song!". So I do. He's a good bloke and all, but he's really your "average" kid in this case. He isnt at all interested in the slightest at non distorted playing, only ever drop D's and bashes the power chords. David does nothing but power chords, and nathan, while being a good guitarist, doesnt like that "pansy arsed country stuff" that is non distorted playing.

 

All of them bar nathan just read tabs, and bash out the songs they want to bash out. I believe that david and Tim will both simply grow out of it. That is my point. Only the ones who are dedicated to reading the notation, learning the music and PLAYING the guitar will continue. David never really plays his. Like I said. I think a lot of the "kids" who you complain about will do the same.

 

At the moment, its all into "grab an axe, and play something to impress your friends". Most people dont know a THING about guitars, that I know. its like... "Hey! I bought a guitar!" "Oh yeah? what kind?"

 

"umm, electric..."

 

"ohh, okay. What brand?"

 

"Hmm.. yamaha? I think?"

 

"ahh... what model?"

 

"...huh?"

 

Or then you get the...

 

"Play a C chord followed by a D"

 

"Wheres the root note on the E string?"

 

"it isnt a power chord."

 

"oh. okay...."

 

"no... dont play it like a power chord."

 

"what?"

 

"You know what a power chord is, right?"

 

"..."

 

"you know how you play that chord there? yeah, the 5th fret on the e string, 7th fret on the a, 7th on the d. Thats a power chord."

 

"ohhh... so whats a C chord?"

 

...I really do feel like screaming sometimes.

 

But like I said - most of these people will give up sooner or later... it is all about being cool these days - and yes, Tabs make it easier for people to think "guitar is easy". People see someone playing from tabs and think "ohh, its that easy?" buy a guitar, and then discover it isnt that easy. Then they stop playing. Then they give up.

 

Seems thats the way the music industry is going... tabs bring in a heap of brainless guitarists... perhaps the next generation will be tab playing, mindless zombies?

 

Its up to notation to save the day!!

 

...so basically, tabs can be useful, and they can be evil.

 

...what the hell am I going on about? ...I forgot.

 

Please dont flame

 

Nolly

[Wrave]

Hey Nolly! I got a chuckle out of your dialog with your mates. That was funny! Sure sounds like you are doing something right though. I'd just say that in the midst all of the fun and desire to play the latest tunes, don't let the note reading slide. I regret it that I let it go as long as I have.

 

Wouldn't you rather have a tag line that says something like "Death to all trap door spiders!"? I mean, I've heard about them buggers. And aren't wombats kind cute and cuddly? I know the Aussie ladies are, I dated one a few years ago. I've wanted to visit Sydney ever since.

 

And Paul, be careful what you wish for, ya just might get it!

[Nollykin]

Originally posted by wrave:

Wouldn't you rather have a tag line that says something like "Death to all trap door spiders!"? I mean, I've heard about them buggers. And aren't wombats kind cute and cuddly? I know the Aussie ladies are, I dated one a few years ago. I've wanted to visit Sydney ever since.

of cours I could do that.

 

Really..

 

It would be quite simple.

 

But would that get a reaction? hehehehe

 

Wombats ARE cute and cuddly - (bt they sure can bite from what I've heard - but thats not my point hehe) I'm just being an idiot. Wombats was the first thing that sprung to mind - so in a mad frenzy of typing, "DEATH TO WOMBATS" suddenly appeared before me. And it gets a laugh.

 

Oh, and yes - aussie ladies are cute and sexy.. I mean cuddly... erm.. where was I? uhhh...

 

Nolly

[D_dup3]

Originally posted by greenboy:

Tab makes it almost impossible to even represent rhythm

As already pointed out above, tablature can indicate rythm...

...(continued on next post)...

[D_dup3]

...(couldn't figure out how else to get both quotes together, since they are from different posts)...

Originally posted by greenboy:

Just curious why some think position and string can't be handled by stave notation. It can.

Well, I've seen those little numerical idicators for playing finger printed by notes but how to inticate string ?

[LDSGuitar]

In musical notation, the string is indicated by a circled letter or number by the note being played. Left hand fingering is an uncircled number, and right hand fingering is p,i,m,a (thumb, index, middle, ring). Harmonics are written differently depending on the composer at issue (which is wonderful for reading music). The easiest way is to put some sort of marker by the note where the harmonic is played (and indicate string if necessary).

Just clearing up some things that, yes, can be written without resorting to tablature.

[g.]

d,

 

LDSGuitar has it right. But actually, one of the benefits of NOTATION is that it is flexible (additional items can be represented different ways as suits composer/performers) and still evolves.

 

As for rhythm, what you quoted from me was: "Tab makes it almost impossible to even represent rhythm"... You will notice the word almost. I didn't say it was dead-on impossible.

 

A main advantage for NOTATION is that a pianist can pick up a guitar part and get with it, and vice versa (with some changes made to reflect different ranges and limitations). Tab is a one-way street that doesn't aid musical communication past the instrument it was intended for.

 

I still think it is slower to read as well. Not that that always matters, as long as one can get what they came for. I think people who use it only and write it only tend {notice qualifier word: tend ;} not to have as strong of foundations in harmonic theory (because it doesn't clearly show relationships) and I wonder if the use of it also cheats them of better ear training...

 

Because the best tabs I've seen -- ones that include RHYTHM, written the way it is in notation by the way -- tend to be written down by people who also can read and write in standard notation.

 

OK, enough generalities for today : }  Not trying to diss anybody; great musicians can come from all walks. But it seems to me having notation as one of your skills can really help you in ways that tab can't easily handle.

[ManInTheBox]

Just my two cents. I think if you want to learn guitar, or if you want to learn music, it doesn't really matter wheter it is tab or the conventional way. I started reading tab,and now I work on staff music, not because of the rhytmic information, but to study how other instrumentalists articulate their musical ideas.

Tabs, staff,or listening to a cd, it's just different ways to communicate. There are many musicians who can't read either way, and just use their ears. To say they are less of a musician, or that they know less about music is absurd. They just can't communicate as effectively as someone who can read notation,tab,by ear, and is profiecient in getting their ideas from their head to their fingers.

[g.]

Being able to communicate fast and effectively is a big part of working with other musicians for many of us. We may love playing strictly from the ear with others who can do the same, but having the printed communication skills sure can come in handy when a CD or tape isn't available to get ideas and specific parts across.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Unfortunately very few musicians have had the kind of ear training that let's you know the other guy's in E flat and just went to an A major 7 flat 9 chord. Nice to be able to find that out by reading, even nicer to know it when you hear it. I can do some of each but I wish I could do a lot more.

Ted

[six_string_sally]

I'm only 4 months new to guitar but have been playing piano since I was a little squirt, so I can read standard notation.

 

I have to admit when I first saw TAB I thought it was a "cheaters way out" and it felt silly reading from it... it just didn't feel like I was looking at real music. But now that I've had some time with TAB I've come to accept it. It has it's place because let's face it, even though most of the TAB on the internet is wrong, buying tons of sheet music can get pricey. And for a beginner like me net TAB is a good place to start -- if you have a keen ear you can figure out the screw ups in the TAB and work it out yourself.

 

Although... I have found that turning notation into TAB helps learn the fretboard so...

 

what was the question again? lol!

[Tedster]

>>>It's not because the teacher was half my age it's

because during the entire "lesson" (if that's what it was?!?!?) I

didn't see one single note of music.

 

Why did you go for lessons? To learn to read music? To learn to play the guitar? Both?

 

Let me clarify my stance. To me, music comes from the soul, not from dots on a page, be they numbers on a tab sheet or notes on a staff. In that sense, notes, and tabs, are both forms of communication. I see standard notation as longhand, and tab as shorthand. They both have their place.

 

My mother-in-law is a pianist, church organist, etc. She can't play anything without the sheet music in front of her. She's good at what she does. I'm jealous of her sight reading chops to some degree, and she's somewhat jealous of my ear chops.

 

Moving on...

 

>>>We sat down and he was asking what kind of music I wanted to play. I

couldn't imagine what this had to do with learning music or to play

the guitar

 

Is learning to play classical guitar the same as learning to play the blues? Is one form more valid than another? Do you want to play jazz? Learn to shred? Wouldn't it be valid, if you wanted to learn piano, whether you were more interested in classical, jazz, boogie woogie, whatever?

 

Moving on...

 

I agree with Jim K's statement:

 

"I think what makes a teacher "worth it" or not doesn't depend on if he/she uses TAB. It depends on whether or not your learning things you can apply"

 

And, expounding...a teacher needs to tailor the lesson to the student's ability and desire to learn. That said, the teacher needs to get an idea of the student's potential. One lesson is generally not enough to do that. I don't believe that most people who take "guitar lessons" are looking to become the next Segovia. They wish to know enough to play their favorite songs, in a passable manner. Excessive studies of modes and scales will be useless for the most part for this category of student. You'll only bore them to tears...unless they start grasping what you're teaching and become thirsty for more. For those that seek to go further, that is also available.

 

My two cents.