Notation vs Tabulature (long post)

[Wrave]

I went for the first guitar lesson I've had in 30-some years last

evening and all I can say is that I feel like I am suffering from

"Culture Shock"! It's not because the teacher was half my age it's

because during the entire "lesson" (if that's what it was?!?!?) I

didn't see one single note of music.

 

We sat down and he was asking what kind of music I wanted to play. I

couldn't imagine what this had to do with learning music or to play

the guitar but I humored him and replied that I like all kinds of

music but lean towards the standards, and jazz with some blues thrown

in for good measure and I'll put a new age CD in when I want to

relax. I like old R&R and fifties be-bop and some rock-a-billy

stuff. He smiled and said, "No problem." then he grabbed a sheet of

what I assumend to be staff paper and wrote on it and handed it to

me. I was looking at a six line staff which he informed me was a "tab

sheet" and that the numbers written on the strings indicated what fret

I was to play and on what string. I asked him what finger and he said

he'd show me. I am not sure I am going back.

 

Let me back up a little. I took lessons in the mid-sixties and was

taught to read music. After about a year I was hired at my studio to

teach beginners. Soon after that I started working with my first band

and between learning tunes with the band and teaching beginners, my

own studies suffered. I don't consider myself a player but I know a

few chords and can struggle through a sheet of standard music, easy

piano or something like that. I was hoping to pick up where I left

off. I even expressly told this kid I wanted to learn music when I

called and set up this first lesson. I played bass professionally for

about 20 years and know how to work out a tune by ear. That's how we

did 'em all. But I don't want to work that hard any more.

 

Let me tell any of you who disdain learning to read music that you are

really making it harder for yourselves in the long run. But the fact

of the matter is that this tab stuff is so new to me that I have been

thinking about it all evening and now most of this morning.

 

First off I'll admit that learning to read music is difficult. It is

not impossible. The teacher last night explained that whenever he gets

a new student, the student wants to learn to play the guitar. Well,

all I can say is "Duh!". That's why I started lessons. But,

apparently, I was willing to invest a little in the learning process

and instead of walking out of my first lesson back all those years

ago, knowing how to play five or six notes of my favorite song, I

walked out ready to learn the notes on the first string in the first

position.

 

Now, if I were to choose to continue taking lessons from a teacher

that can only teach tabulature, I am not going to learn anything that

will take me beyond what the teacher has to offer. In fact, who needs

a teacher if ya got tab music?

 

Please don't turn this into a flame war. I'm not trying to do that. In

fact, I can see where tabulature has it's uses. But, to develop

musicianship, I feel like I gotta learn to read music. I'm already

halfway there. I am currently taking piano and my reading skills have

improved thanks to that. Still, I was hoping to find a skilled guitar

teacher not someone that was going to teach me by saying "Now put the

first finger of your hand here."

 

Tabulature is a time honored way to notate for stringed instruments. I

am guessing, but I suspect that this is true, that tabs were around

before notation. I imagine that notation grew out of the need to find

a way to share music across instruments since tabulature is instrument

specific. In fact, written music, whatever the transcription method,

grew out of a need to preserve and share the melodies and harmonies

that early musicians were inventing. Notation was finally the best

solution possible (although, on the deepest level, it lacks the

sensitivity of nuance that may be intended by the composer and this

can only at best be suggested by the notator) and it has become the

lingua franca of music. OK, enough theorizing.

 

Here's what I am asking myself, "Am I missing something because I feel

like a teacher that is teaching only through tabulature cannot provide

the depth of music knowledge that is there to be gained from a teacher

that teaches notation reading?"

 

Is notation unnecessary these days thanks to the ready availability of

recorded music and should I concentrate more on "ear training" (which

I can see tabs to be very helpful with) and take a few lessons from

this guy just to see if I can pick up some stuff off him?

 

Just for me, I think I'd feel like I was turning my back on music if I

take lessons from this guy. What do you think?

[g.]

Tabs suck. There might be a little more time up front learning to read real notation, but once you understand the basics you can look at a sheet and actually see the relationships harmonically, melodically, and rythmically. Tab makes it almost impossible to even represent rhythm -- let alone dig it out quickly if it has been attempted. The unspoken assumption with tab is that you've heard the music before and just need training wheels to actually reproduce it ; }

 

And that is ironic, because 90% of the tab I've seen on the net is riddled with the wrong chords, formatted by people who aren't far enough along with their ear-training to be of any help. There are occasional jewels of course, but the average is remarkably low. I suspect that learning to properly read and write notation would also help develop the other skills quicker too...

[pauldil]

Good topic, Wrave. I am a terrible reader, but I do try to read something daily for at least 5-10 minutes. I find that its a great way to warm up because I have to play things so slowly when I read . I dont play professionally any more, but even when I did, I rarely had to read other than maybe a rhythmic figure here and there on a jobbing date. Would being a better reader make me a better player? Well, in the sense that I would have more musical literature to draw from, maybe. But if Im hearing someone play really well, if someone is really moving me, I never think whether or not that player can read. And yes, tabs are full of wrong chords, but then again, so is a lot of sheet music. Its only as good as the person who transcribes it.

 

As far as the teacher asking you what kind of music you want to play, I think the vast majority of beginning guitar players who sign up for lessons want to learn to PLAY as quickly as possible. Trying to teach them the type of music they like will help keep their interest and theyll probably practice more and continue with the lessons. You are abviously beyond the beginner level, and seem have a wide range of musical tastes, so you might consider looking for a little more advanced teacher.

 

Regards,

 

Paul

[Mile]

Tabs... Who needs them?!

Well, kids do. They bring me all kinds of tabs. I want to learn this, I want to learn that

Than, I explain them the power of the notes: You can't tell whether if it's eight or half note from tabs. I like combination of both. Notes and tabs. That's where programs like Power Tab come in handy. From sheet you can tell harmonies, key in which you play... Everything. From tab:nothing.

But kids want to know new MTV hit ASAP. And they don't care were can you play G on second string

I agree that lot of tabs are wrong, but there are some that are right. You can find even classical stuff in tabs (Heaven forbid ) I'm fighting my personal war with the music workshop I work in.

They put in there books tabs under the notes of Tarrega and Sor. It pisses me off (maybe 'cause I'm classically trained guitarist who turned to dark side and start taking interest in other kinds of music )

Anyway, have notes and tabs together but not under classical music. Who wants to play Asturias or Recuerdos Del Alhambra should firs learn how to read staff.

Enough said.

[Rim]

wrave,

 

I can read both tab and musical notation and I think both have their place. I get the feeling that the guitar teacher did not do a good job at writing tabs. And greenboy, I agree with you that tabs that are found free on the Internet have errors and rhythm may not be included. These are just examples of tabs used inappropriately or incompletely. The tabs I like are professionally done. They have rhythm notated and all markings of music notation (measure, repeats, codas, etc.). Grab a copy of Guitar World or Guitar One magazine where they transcribe 4-6 songs each issue and check them out to see what it looks like. For guitar music, tab notation is actually better since there are standards for notating a pull-off or a hammer-on, finger tap, artifical harmonic, natural harmonic, etc. I don't think regular music notation can notate all that.

 

Check out a professionally-written guitar tab music before giving up on it. Guitar tab can represent guitar music better than regular music notation.

[cincinnatirock]

For what is being played on the radio today, it is not a necessity to learn how to read music. A lot of gigging musicians don't read music. Personally, I don't sight read very well anymore, but I do find it beneficial to know the notes. At bare minimum, I think that everyone should learn the notes on the staff and also be able to determine key signatures. It is beneficial to know this to understand basic music theory such as how to play in key and basic chord formulas

[JimK]

I think what makes a teacher "worth it" or not doesn't depend on if he/she uses TAB. It depends on whether or not your learning things you can apply. If your teacher is just going to show you how to play songs, then you're waisting your time. But if he shows you how modes are derived from scales, what chords and progressions work with what scales, shows you techniques, tips, excercises, etc., then he's worth it. You don't need musical notation to learn these things. To some people it may be clearer that way, to others it won't.

 

Don't worry about the TAB stuff. Worry about whether or not you're learning things that wouldn't have been obvious to learn on your own.

 

Just my $.02.

 

Jim

[Wrave]

Thanks to you all for your comments. I understand exactly what you are saying Mile about the kids bringing in tab sheets. You're right, they want to learn a song and they want to learn it NOW!

 

When I taught, nobody ever brought in tabulature. When I had young kids come in (most of my students were under 15 yrs. old) it was often because their parents brought them in. I had one little guy (he was small even for his age and he was only six or seven yrs. at the time) who was dragged in every week (mostly because his brother was taking accordion lessons at the same time and it gave the parents an hour or so away from the kids...or so it seemed) even though he never progressed at all to the best of my recollection. They had bought this kid a half-size guitar. It was a cheap one though and even hard for me to play. But the point is that there was no tabulature that he could have been taught at least one song and maybe, just maybe, he'd have had a little fun and worked a little harder. Still, I don't think I'd have given him a steady diet of tabs.

 

Without a doubt, tabs might help if I was interested in learning some specific song. But, I was beginning to learn inversions so I could harmonize any melody line I had the sheet music for and tabs aren't going to show me how to do that are they?

 

Like I said, I played bass for a long time and tabs would have made working up an arraingement with the band a whole lot simpler if they'd been readily available. (Would have probably helped settle some arguments as well but so would have sheet music and we couldn't afford to wait for the publication or to purchase it when it did come out. We just bought the album and picked it up by ear.)

 

I'm here in the middle of nowhere now and there aren't lot's of choices as to teachers. I have thought about setting up a weekend lesson in one of the bigger cities near by and that way I'd have more choice as to the teacher and stand a better chance of finding one that could teach stuff more like Burrell plays or Pass. If all I wanted to play was contemporary music, I think this kid could teach me a lot. But I suspect that if I mention "Here's That Rainy Day" or "'Round Midnight" to him he's just gonna look at me and go, "Huh?"

 

So now I am wondering if there is a good course, either video or DVD or even a book that I could work my way through. I've got a couple of the Grimoire books and after reading in them I find that his teaching method is to teach to "play" first and then read music later on. They just look like scale tab books to me.

 

If I were to "rank" my abilities I'd say I was an early intermediate player (who's way out of practice!) Has anybody been working with a good book lately that they've found useful and that might be appropriate for someone that can read a little, someone that knows basic barre chords and knows the difference between a C7 and Cmaj7?

[D_dup3]

Firstly, I would have to agree that standard notation is more valuable than tablature---not only is it the regular profession tool you'll encounter but it presents the music of other instruments. However, I do find value in tablature for at least two reasons:

(1) When presented (as in GP & other magazines) along with standard charts, it can demonstrate position, which is not only helpful in the sheer technique of playing but can also be important to timbre, especially for acoustic playing (we all know that the "g" on the first string/third fret doesn't sound the same as the same pitch at the twelfth fret/third string.

(2)I think that anything that helps someone learn is good.

 

Additionally, we should remember that music happens in our ears & minds. I personnally think that it's an emotional or spiritual art rather than an intellectual one (but of course it can be that as well).

Incidently, ear training/recognition is more valuable as a learning tool that any notation but who among us would like to be overly criticised for needing notation ?

[GuitarWolf]

Yea... im taking lessons right now and all i get is tab, but i could really care less... right now i just wanna play awesome guitar riffs from songs i know, and i have other musical backgrounds so i could pick up how to read guitar notation easily... i have all the notes on the fretboard memorized so...uh... yea, i guess im just sayin that tabs fine with me right me

[Mile]

I forgot most important thing: When you know your notes, you can talk with other musicians. How are you going to explain to keyboard player what harmonies are you playing or melody? Not to mention drummers. "Play eight triplet in 3rd beat!"

GUIT "What chord are you playing?"

KB "I don't know how to name it but you have E, G, Bb and c#."

GUIT "Can you write me a tab for that?

[Dave da Dude]

I agree that tabs have their place. They are essential to the newcomer to keep their interest.

 

I learned by the "copy cat" method. A friend of mine in college showed me how to play "A Soalin'" an old English Christmas carol. It uses the E and B strings only from the 1st to 5th fret. I didn't realize it at the time, but it also taught proper usage of fingers on the frets (although I didn't use 5th, or pinky, finger on the 5th fret until much later).

 

I've taken lessons with varying degrees of success. My most succesful time I could ALMOST sight read (VERY slowly). This was because I found a very good teacher / player. He majored in music in one of Boston's better conservatories and then went on to "..try and become a rock star." He finally realized that being a rock star was very unlikely and not what he really wanted. He still played gigs every week, but had given up "being a star".

 

He had an extremely good groundwork in music and PLAYED extremely well. He started off asking me what I wanted to play (it IS important that you address the student's style).

 

I mentioned the Stones, and when asked for specifics, he ripped off a beautiful riff from "Honky Tonk Woman". Then he asked me to play something. I played "Alice's Restaurant" with a Folk picking sequence off the chords. He said, I don't know how to play that, but I know the song and that's a real good "fake", but it's not completely accurate. I knew he was right. This was why I could learn from him. He could actually PLAY better (and more accurately)than I could.

 

Tabs are good. They keep the "fire burnin'". This is after all an "art" form. Notation is necessary if you want to become an "accomplished MUSICIAN", not just another guitar player (no I don't read it well, but I don't pass myself off as a musicina, just a guitar player). There's nothing wrong with not being a musician, it's just another level. Decide where you WANT to be.

 

Lessons can do anything YOU want them to. Just paying money to someone every week (or month) makes you work more at it so you don't waste the money. Wheter you learn tabs or notation is a choice, not an absolute. Find an instructor that can work with you the way that you want to work, keeping in mind that they may actually know more than you (I didn't WANT to learn notation, but it was good for me).

 

What an instructor CAN do is teach you proper technique, fret fingering, picking, using the pick, rythm, timing, etc. and that is just as important as all the rest.

 

Sorry I got so wordy, diareah of the mouth. I'll stop now.

 

Keep the fire burnin' !!

[D_dup3]

Originally posted by Mile:

I forgot most important thing: When you know your notes, you can talk with other musicians. How are you going to explain to keyboard player what harmonies are you playing or melody?

Not to sound too high-falutin' ('cause believe me I could stand to improve a lot---personally, I find it much easier to transcribe music than to sight-read) but this is the value of good ear-recognition.

If you saw my earlier expressed opinion, you know I value any form of notation but lots of excellent players can't verbally articulate what they do (have you seen a book called "Cherokee Mist" ? It has copies of Hendrix's notes to himself about song arrangements &, boy, are those arcane !).

[Dave da Dude]

Yeah, it doesn't matter HOW you do it, if you can REALLY play.

 

The notation reading is only for personal satisfaction IF you want to be a more accomplished MUSICIAN.

 

There's nothing wrong with not being able to read notation (I can't), just that it's more (whether or not that's good is up to the individual).

 

And I don't mean to sound "hi-folutin'". It's just the way I type. I play by "ear" and "the seat of my pants".

[Christopher]

Learn both.

[Mile]

Originally posted by d:

Not to sound too high-falutin' ('cause believe me I could stand to improve a lot---personally, I find it much easier to transcribe music than to sight-read) but this is the value of good ear-recognition.

If you saw my earlier expressed opinion, you know I value any form of notation but lots of excellent players can't verbally articulate what they do (have you seen a book called "Cherokee Mist" ? It has copies of Hendrix's notes to himself about song arrangements &, boy, are those arcane !).

I do both: transcribe and sight-read. Sometimes it's easyer to transcribe and sometimes it's not. I agree with you that there are some great harmonies and chord structures put together by people which couldn't read staff if their life depended on it. What I wanted to say is that you can't comunicate (on certain level) with other musicians if you don't how to read/write notes...

It's not SO important to know how to do that but still, it's a good thing to know. That's all I wanted to say.

[Wrave]

I went shopping over the weekend and found a couple of books that I picked up. (And paid for! ) I don't remember the authors right off the top of my head but one of them is already proving to be very useful. It's title is "Scales over Chords" and it's purpose is to help a player learn improvisation.

 

So far it is explaining things I had always known but not been able to put definitions to. It gives both tabs and notation for all of the exercises and it also comes with a CD with a track for each example in the book. I had learned the minor pentatonic scale years ago but didn't know that it was called the "minor pentatonic scale".

 

Of course, among the main reasons to learn and practice scales are increased dexterity, ear training and key recognition. I think a book like this is going to be very helpful for me. I think pauldil is right that the only way to really learn to read is by reading. The keyboard lessons I have been taking have helped me to become more familiar with the notes on the treble and bass staves but having something like this in your head is a whole lot different from having it in your fingers.

 

So, I am not sure about returning to this particular teacher again. I recognise the fact that I do tend to learn quicker and better if there is some structure in the educational process. And maybe I am not all that good at setting goals and a teacher can tell me to "go over these pages in the book and put some more work into yada, yada, yada" and I will do just that. I guess I am still looking for a teacher but until I manage to find one I have a pretty good book to get going with and I've got some sheet music to practice reading and then there is always you all, my bullitin board friends, who I can ask questions of and get advice from.

 

Now if I could just quit the day gig and spend the next year wood shedding I could be ready to jam with y'all by this time next year!!!

 

Thanks folks...

[Sylver]

I haven't sight read in years. It's funny, I was getting pretty good at it, but then, if you don't use it, you loose it.

 

BUT, while it would take me forever to sight read the pitch notation, the rhythmic notation is a different story. I think learning a pieve from tabs is a lot harder without the rhythmic notation above it, espcially when the piece is complex. I like the tabs because when they are good, they can show you the correct fingering.

[Wrave]

Ya got that right Sylver! If ya don't use it ya lose it. That's why I like what pauldil does and I am going to also spend a few minutes of each practice sight reading something. And for me, sight reading means that it hast to be something fairly unfamiliar. When I have a keyboard assignment I know that in a few repetitions, I begin to have it memorized.

 

At that point I am no longer "sight reading" it is more like I am "sight reminding" myself. So I need to keep fresh musical material around with which to practice the reading part.

[g.]

Just curious why some think position and string can't be handled by stave notation. It can.

[Tedly Nightshade]

What throws me is some classical pieces where they retune the guitar.

Dropped D's are no biggie and I can accomodate easily enough for the bottom half octave, but when they retune a couple other strings I become very disoriented looking at g# and thinking where is that on this retuned guitar?

Tab might be handy there.

Ted

[JonnyM]

I really think that 1 single year of guitar lessons at age 9 made a hellava difference in my future enjoyment of music.

 

Of course there was no "tab" then, so my teacher, who could just barely play the guitar (although he could just barely play nearly every instrument and some quite well) taught me right out of the Mel-Bay books how to read music.

 

During my formative years, my buddies and I would buy song books to learn our favorite tunes, ala Beatles, Neil Young, etc. Our approach was chord charts over the top of the staff to immediately be able to sing the song with accompanyment, and the melody line if we wanted to play an instrumental version or verify we were singing in the right key. Very basic stuff, didn't take that long to learn the basic concept of this dot in this position on the staff relates to this string and finger position on the guitars fretboard. Really good stuff to know, and makes so much historical music available, including music written for other instruments particularly piano. I think we got the best of both worlds in those day, as song books were usually published for both guitar and piano.

 

As time progressed some publishers would include some extra pages of notation for the "riffs" with hints on how to sound like your heroes, but in the last decade we seem to have suffered from the freedom (accent free) of the internet to become very tabish. Tab can be expressed in a simple text file very easily, traditional song notation doesn't work very well, you need a more sophisticated file format. Future me generations also want the quick fix, I still remember all anyone wanted me to show them in high school guitar class (circa 1972) was how to play the riff from the song, now how to play, or how to play the whole song. Most tab has no interest for me because I want to give my own interpretation of the song, not copy someone elses including the song writers. Exceptions prove the rule, but when I search for songs on Olga or whatever, I looking for the basic lyrics plus chords, nothing more. The beauty is all those years of playing out of songbooks with chord charts is I rarely need the chord charts anymore to know how to play the basic chords ( at least in the root position) and in many cases the writer includes odd chord shapes in the intro for non-standard chord figures. ...but the tabs that are just someone listening to the song ad infinitum to figure out how JonnyHOtPlayer played that riff, just not a big deal.

 

Knowing how to read music, at a very simple fundamental level....priceless

 

Wrave, find a teacher that teaches in the way you want to learn. Don't settle, life is too short.

 

JonnyM

[TurboDog]

I learned to read music at a pretty young age. Now, I have lost that ability (for the most part) and it doesnt bother me a bit.

 

When most people read tabs, it's for songs they know by ear, but have not figured out how to play. If you show them the notes and chords, they can put them where they need to be. It's no big deal.

 

I hate to be contrary on this one, but it's kinda your own fault for taking a lesson from someone without finding out how he teaches. If you wanted sheet music or notated lessons, you should look for somebody who teaches that way. I'm sure there is still plenty you can learn from this guy.

 

I have a friend whose brother plays classical professionally (part time). This guy says any real guitar player has to know how to read music. I think that's funny, seeing how many amazing guitarists never read or wrote a note in their life.

[pauldil]

Originally posted by wrave:

... I am going to also spend a few minutes of each practice sight reading something. And for me, sight reading means that it hast to be something fairly unfamiliar.

Hey wrave, clarinet books are great for guitar single-note reading studies. The note range is pretty similar, and there are tons out there.

 

Paul

[LDSGuitar]

About good books for sight reading. I haven't been to a lesson in quite a while, but my teacher recommended some books for me which have excellent reading material. For improving technique while improving reading skills, Frederick Node's series on solo guitar are excellent. He also has his name on a lot of good collections of classical guitar pieces (Including the works of Heitor Villa-Lobos, highly recommended). Also is a collection of pieces by Matteo Carcassi, published by Mel Bay. Contains 25 etudes which cover many playing techniques and provide excellent, musical reading material. Hope those help you Wrave!

[Tedly Nightshade]

Villa Lobos is incredible and has a lot to offer for anyone from deathmetal to classical.

No it's not deathmetal, but steal the appropriate ideas and you too can be the great originator!

 

Classical sheetmusic is priceless for showing you all kinds of voicings and finger placements that would not have occured to you otherwise. Some time spent with Bach sheetmusic has improved my jazz, rock and blues playing immensely.

 

This reminds me of how important it is to get the genuine article, none of this "easy guitar edition" stuff. For a piano analogy, I don't care if I can't get through it, I learn so much from seeing where Beethoven put his fingers on the keys, or Debussy. These voicing ideas can be used on any instrument, and if you compose it's priceless.

 

Tab is useful, but there are WAY too many guitarists studying and listening to nothing but guitar music. You can steal great ideas from anywhere, and you should!

 

Ted

-------

The good borrow, the great steal!

[g.]

Right on, Ted!

[Wrave]

First off, thanks to everyone for all of your excellent comments!

 

I went to my usual piano lesson last evening. There is nothing going on there that I cannot apply to my guitar playing as well. What better place to learn theory than on the keyboard? But, I still need to have the guitar in my hands, put my fingers on the strings and pluck the right ones so the instrument does the things I want it to do.

 

If all I do is randomly play chords, what am I learning? It's better for me to have some structured goal towards which I am working.

 

I think I mentioned this earlier but the reason I am doing all of this is because I started coming up with melodies on the Native American flute, decided to begin recording some of them and I felt sure that I could find some accompanying instrumentation that would compliment it's timbre. Too poor to hire an orchestra I did the next best thing and bought a synthesizer. Taking lessons on the keyboard reminded me that I had let my guitar (and bass) playing lapse. It was just the joy of being involved in music once again that caused me to question the many years I spent chasing an education and then a career, at the cost of one of my true loves, music.

 

So I am back at it and picking up the guitar once again is a true joy. I didn't realize how much I missed it. It's nice because I can actually play guitar a little (it's the keyboard that's giving me fits!) and the frustration I felt with the one lesson I took and the teacher has turned out to be a good thing for me. Exchanging thoughts with the participants in this forum has given me alternatives that I would not have thought of by myself.

 

I have some old sheet music that I bought a long time ago and it is perfect for me to practice guitar with. I know enough that I can read the melody line and can construct harmonies (with some effort...OK, lots of effort ) but I think for now that's gonna be a good start. In the mean time I can shop around for a GOOD teacher, one that will teach me guitar music. And I can save the use of tabs for when I need 'em. But I have decided that I am not going to pay someone to teach me by writing out tab sheets of the pentatonic minor scale. I can read tabs and in this past week I've seen some that are done pretty professionally...complete with the notation and even accompanied by CDs of audio examples.

 

And eventually, you'll see me posting a tune so you can all hear what it is I am trying to do.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Excellent. Glad to hear it!

Ted

[pauldil]

Originally posted by wrave:

And eventually, you'll see me posting a tune so you can all hear what it is I am trying to do.

I'd love to hear your stuff, wrave. Keep us posted.

 

Paul