string out of tune with itself?

[Martin O]

Does anyone know why a string (usually low E) would sound out of tune--with itself?

I'm tuning 5th string (A) to 6th string (E), it aint working out so I say to myself 'wait, just play the low E by itself'--THATS where the 'oscillation' is coming from. What to do? I know some will say replace the string - DONE that. Get it intonated - DONE THAT. Take it to the store and let their guy set it up - DONE THAT. The stores (G.C. Carle Place) set-up guy had no explanation / solution. This was on a new Gibson LP Studio. I even tried different Gibsons including Standards and they ALL did that. Picked up the Joe Satch guitar and it DIDNT do it. I've since returned the Gibson (and I really wanted a Les Paul), but I've got other guitars that do this to varying degrees. And it happened while recording last night on my friends bass. If anyone can give me any comments or info on this that would be really cool.

 

Thanks,

Martin

[Scott from MA]

Can you be a little more specific about the "oscillation" of the pitch? Is it sharp when you pick, and then goes flat... or is it actually oscillating (sharp, flat, sharp, flat, etc)?

 

All strings will change pitch slightly as they ring out. That's why you never tune to the decaying note. If you do, the string will be sharp when you pick. It shouldn't be THAT noticable though!

[Martin O]

Hi Scott. By oscillation I mean flat sharp flat sharp etc. Like the sound of 2 strings ringing out the same note together but slightly out of tune with each other. But in my case its just 1 string. Now, this 'oscillation' isnt extreme - its like an underlying crappiness that just makes it harder to tune using what I'll call the 'turn-tuner-till-oscillation-stops' method. Like what Rush's Alex Lifeson is doing at the beginning of 2112 ii. Discovery. (dont know if you like Rush or not..)

 

And thanks for your reply about the Sans Amp. Its probably something else of mine thats distorting.

 

Martin

[Scott from MA]

OK... you got me over a barrel on this one! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/confused.gif

 

The only thing I can think of that would cause a string to produce two notes, is if the string is making a slight contact (or losing contact) with something as it vibrates. I've seen that happen only once on a guitar that had a zero-fret that was worn down. The string would lift off the zero-fret, producing a slightly flat secondary pitch.

 

Check the areas around the nut and the bridge, and see if there is anything that the string could be touching. Other than that... you've got me stumped. I'll keep kicking it around in my head though.

[Scott from MA]

Oh, by the way... Yes, I like Rush. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Martin O:

Does anyone know why a string (usually low E) would sound out of tune--with itself?

 

Yep.

 

A string that is bent, or has a dent in it will do weird things. A dent will sometimes set up a secondary beat with itself, and a bent string will either go sharp or flat after it is struck.

 

Why do I know this?

 

I make *all* of my students tune as part of the lesson. Serves as ear training, and plus none of *my* students are going to be caught on stage going "duh.... I don't know if I'm out of tune, and I don't know how to tune, where's my tuner?". Lonnnnnnnnng ago two days in a row I noticed a string that was warbling - by itself - on a student's guitar, so I set out to figure it out. Figured it had something to do with the integrity of the string, so I did some experiments... So sometimes, a student has either damaged the string prior to putting it on, or has dented it against a fret - or they're so old and played that they're dented where each fret occurs.

 

So once more, a bit of effectively useless knowledge occupies a corner of my mind. However, if you get to listen to any strings that are *not* curled in a package - straight, or off a big reel, and compare them to "normal" strings you'll note they're more "solid" pitch-wise. The weight of heavier strings making them stiffer, less likely to deform - which makes the pitch more stable, which is what *I* think makes heavy strings sound "nicer". The "bloom" of overtones interacting in chords I think happens nicer when the pitch of each tone is steady(er).

 

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New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Sir Bob]

Try this little experiment: Pluck the string very lightly and then do it hard. The hard one should be sharp and then go to the normal pitch. This is normal.

[Martin O]

Thanks Scott, Chip and Sir Bob.

I am aware of the way a string will go sharp when hit hard, then even out.

Chip seems to know exactly what I was talking about -- 'warbling' is just the word I would have used if I had thought of it. Only problem is that I DID consider crappy strings as the cause. When I had this problem on the Gibson I tried changing the string, then changing all strings, intonating, taking it to setup guy who put on different strings. Problably went through 5 packs. I have other guitars that dont do this, and some that do it to varying degrees (I got lots of cheap guitars).

I had also considered Scott's idea that there was a problem at the bridge or nut. I examined those areas and couldn't find anything amiss (I put my finger on those areas while plucking the string to see if it made a difference).

Thanks for thinking about it. Maybe next time I'll try heavier gauge strings.

 

P.S. Chip - Majestic 12 rules! (is that a pun?). I heard it when reading 'Is Your Music Any Good Find Out Here' months ago. Its my favorite song on that thread, and I copied your artists.mp3 link to My Favorites. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Lisa]

You might also want to check and see that the pickups are not set too close to the strings. Sometimes a pickup with a great deal of magnetic pull will throw off the tuning, especially on the low E because it has the most mass. The easy way to tell is by lowering the pickup(s) at the bass side and see if the problem goes away.

[Scott from MA]

Oh, good call Lisa!!! Being primarily a single-coil user, I would have never thought of that.

[Lisa]

Scott - the problem is actually more common with single-coils, especially on the neck pickup.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Martin O:

When I had this problem on the Gibson I tried changing the string, then changing all strings,

 

I could say the obvious and ask "is it an SG with a particularly thin neck?"... but that wouldn't affect 1 string. Hmm. Pickup height does it, like Lisa says, but it sounds different.

 

Just to eliminate that (and to add to the knowledge base I suppose), the pickup/magenetic interference phenomenon gets worse the higher you fret a note. If the string sounded out of tune above say the 10th fret, but not below - I'd say it's the pickups, but I'm sure you've eliminated that.

 

Hmm. Improperly seated bridge, asymetrical nut slot (the string theoretically could be sliding/binding in minute amounts angularly in the slot). Also, strings twist as you tune them... It could be some odd combination of tensions created by this that is combining with a physical defect in the nut or bridge perhaps...

 

I'll stop now, I have to go to work where I get paid to expound on this kind of thing....

 

Majestic 12 rules! (is that a pun?). I heard it when reading 'Is Your Music Any Good Find Out Here' months ago. Its my favorite song on that thread, and I copied your artists.mp3 link to My Favorites. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

Cool, thanks! I needed that. Sometimes one thinks one is adrift....

 

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New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Scott from MA]

Originally posted by Lisa:

Scott - the problem is actually more common with single-coils, especially on the neck pickup.

 

 

Really? I would expect there to be more magnetic pull on a humbucker. Hmmm... live and learn! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Martin O]

Lisa, I didn't consider pickup height! Thanks for the great idea. I will soon use the accumulated knowledge of Scott, Chip and Lisa to get my guitars (with this problem) sounding decent. This I vow. I want a smoooooth note. Not a note that sounds like a ninety year old man singing. I meant to try these suggestions and then reply, but I may not be able to do that soon. But when I do I'll reply with the results. I know everyone will be on the edge of their seats until then (sarcasm). Again thanks to all.

 

Martin.

[the stranger]

Are you tuning to standard pitch?

 

Every guitar I've had always has notes that it is sympathetic to. Notes that become fuller after being struck because the guitar resonates with these notes more than others.

So the only thing I can think of besides the above suggestions is that maybe you are tuning the guitar just slightly off of a natural resonance point of the guitar.

 

In other words you are tuning the E string to 329.62755691286993 cycles per second, and it is close enough to be triggering vibration from the wood at

(say) 329.2etc....

Does this make sense?

It would be the same as when you play guitar and the snare is making racket. You know the guitar isn't perfectly in tune with the sanre but it is close enough to trigger sympathetic vibrations.

[Martin O]

Yes Dr. that sounds like another thing that could be doing it. I actually first noticed this when tuning a guitar to 'drop-B'. But then I tuned it up and it still did it. But in your theory, I should be able to lessen or worsen the effect by tuning it slightly up or down right? I will definitely keep this idea in mind. I know what you mean too - in my college dorm, my neighbor would crank Greatful Dead early in the morning. But what really bothered me is that whenever the bass hit a certain note my whole room would resonate an make that note extra loud! I've since gotten over this and can now listen to Greatful Dead again. If I have to.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by Martin O:

Yes Dr. that sounds like another thing that could be doing it. I .

 

A) Does this string warble on every note? If not, where?

 

B) You've eliminated pickup height? (Which generally affects the higher register, since the string is pressed closer to the pickup)

 

C) Have you changed strings to see if it's the string being damaged?

 

D) How low is your action? I've heard some weird things from the occasional weird fret sticking up...

 

E) Does this occur after you hit the string very hard? Do you have a floating tremelo?

 

F) Do you live near an earthquake zone or suffer from any stray magnetic anomalies?

 

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New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Matt.Hepworth]

I had this same problem and traced it to the pickup itself, not the positioning of the pickup. To test this, go into the quietest room you can find and put a condenser mic next to the strings and listen through headphones. If you don't have a condenser, use a dynamic and crank the input and run it through your PA (quietly) if you have to. That way at least you'll know if it's NOT the pickup.

 

Matt

No clever saying.