fet Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Let's not get caught up in this fast guitar thing. It's really a strange concept. You play as fast or as slow as your music requires, and that's IT. Imagine the bizarreness of a bunch of vocalists asking each other "Who is the world's fastest singer?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 To that end...the goal should be to translate what you hear in your head to what you play on your fretboard...basically. If you can do that, you're all set. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't... Forever endeavor... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvdd Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 I agree, it's a bizarre thing. My original point was based on the fact that I got caught up in this 'too fast' shit back in the 70's. There was nothing wrong with that on it's own .. but in my case I stunk at it. And everytime I think I'm pretty hot, I pull those old tapes out to straighten myself out. I was too young and wild (and horny) to consider whether the music I was making was really touching my soul. It wasn't. Around 1980 (interestingly after a near death experience) I suddenly realized that me trying to play fast was not representing my true self at all. I've heard some great blazing licks that I wish I had in my bag to use at just the right moment ..ones that compliment my more subdued style now and have plenty of emotion. But time is too precious now and we're all very busy. So basically I was just taking a stab at the quantity vs. quality syndrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvdd Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 popmusic, I couldn't have said it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Dude... Tell us about your near-death experience. Did you see the light and the tunnel and all that? Just curious... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Posted by popmusic: >>>I think that's where guitarists who practice a lot of fast stuff get defensive... They believe you can scientifically measure musical ability by how many notes you can play in 10 seconds... Like any of this music stuff is objective... --------------------- This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Chip McDonald is a "Shred Master" and I never hear him react this way. He always talks about how he has fun playing Pink Floyd and other beautiful melodic stuff. Some people here have even called some of my mp3.com stuff shredding, and I play in a Floyd tribute. It has been my observation (look at recent posts) that it is the people who haven't developed the ability to play fast that question the validity "great chops", not the other way around. I'm glad I practiced my ass off when I was younger, It gives me another color to the musical palette. It's just another way to express yourself. Guitar is the only instrument I have ever heard of where so many people say that learning technique or music theory hurts their playing. Ignorance is not bliss!!! Can you imagine a concert Pianist or Violinist telling the conductor "we cant do this piece, I can't play in three flats" http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/redface.gif ! I'm all for each musician "realizing themselves" in any way that they feel comfortable with, but these debates over the last couple of days have been a complete waste of time IMO. www.mp3.com/Surbigger ------------------ ----------- KHAN (Always hopeful, yet discontent) www.floydtribute.hpwebhost.com So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott from MA Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Originally posted by fet: Imagine the bizarreness of a bunch of vocalists asking each other "Who is the world's fastest singer?" You mean like yodelers, or square-dance singers? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Scott (just another cantankerous bastard) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Posted by popmusic: >>>>I meant it in terms of guitarists who look at things in simplistic terms like "lots of notes"=good, "not many notes"=bad... C'mon, you've met some guitarists like this, haven't you? -------------------------- It has been my experience that almost all of the "technically strong" musicians (any instrument) that I know personally have been very humble about their playing. The arrogant assholes usually don't play too well (whether they try to play fast or not). I guess Dave Mustaine may fit into the category that you talk about. Luckily, I have never met him. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/redface.gif Either way, IT'S ALL GOOD!!! Just do what makes you happy, and the rest will fall into place. ------------------ ----------- KHAN (Always hopeful, yet discontent) www.floydtribute.hpwebhost.com So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Flier Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Khan wrote: It has been my observation (look at recent posts) that it is the people who haven't developed the ability to play fast that question the validity "great chops", not the other way around. Actually, if you don't really dig listening to "fast playing" you have little incentive to want to develop it. It's not necessarily that people who "can't play fast" like to diss shredding because they're "envious" (although I'm sure there are individuals who are like that), but that the reason they don't learn to play fast is because they never liked hearing it in the first place. I've said this before, but apparently no one believes me. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif That said, I do agree with the general consensus that whether one plays slow or fast doesn't have much to do with whether you're a good player. There are times when playing fast is totally appropriate of course. And like everybody says, if it makes you happy, do it. It's just a matter of personal taste whether others will like it or not. I'm glad I practiced my ass off when I was younger, It gives me another color to the musical palette. It's just another way to express yourself. Indeed. But (and I've said this before too), don't assume that because a player can't or doesn't "shred" they didn't practice their ass off. I practiced my ass off and then some - it's just that "shredding" wasn't what I practiced. There are other colors to add to the palette too, besides the ones you chose. --Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Hi Lee. I agree with you 100%. (no, really, it's true http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif) I never meant to infer that everyone who who doesn't play fast wasn't dedicated to their craft. David gilmour comes to mind. I take pride in my rhythm playing, and trying to be emotive in my solos. I was trying to point out (on this forum anyways) that it seems there is alot of debate about the validity of fast playing. I don't see alot of topics called "playing TOO SLOW" here. And I have never heard a "pro-shredder" say that you or anyone else are not "valid" if you can't (or don't want to ) play fast. ------------------ ----------- KHAN (Always hopeful, yet discontent) www.floydtribute.hpwebhost.com This message has been edited by KHAN on 07-06-2001 at 03:24 PM So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvdd Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Every response I've read here is valid, which is exactly what I'd hoped for. It is not however, a debate .. there is no 'right and wrong'. My inspiration for starting this talk, is somewhat of a continuation of the Rhythm vs. Lead thing. Here in New England, MOST-BUT NOT ALL guitarists I've seen ignore rhythm guitar totally ... and MOST-BUT NOT ALL shredders overplay to the point where the song is ruined. Hell, one guy I know keeps shredding a full 5 seconds after the last downbeat of the song. This tells me that at least in those cases, the player is not interested in helping to make a song good or in being part of an ensemble. I've lived in Nashville, LA, Virginia, Colorado, and Florida .. and it wasn't like this anywhere else. So I enjoy hearing the opinions of all you folks because it helps me keep my own shit in perspective. (Not because I want to challenge or debate you) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 <> I have to respectfully disagree. I can play sorta fast, albeit in a different style than some, but I save it for when I can tastefully throw a passage in, not all the time!!! I used to be all about playing fast too, in my teens and twenties. These days it's all about feel and groove rather than the speed. I respect those who can rip out 64ths at 200 beats per minute....it just loses something for me personally. This message has been edited by strat0124 on 07-06-2001 at 03:23 PM Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvdd Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Considering solos, one way that works for me is that I use nearly the whole section to build something that's as slow, bluesy, and melodic as possible .. then on the very last 5 change I let it rip. It only lasts for 2-4 seconds but if I do it right, (and my head isn't up my ass that night) it slams the song down perfectly and gives the audience just enough dazzle to keep 'em there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 7, 2001 Share Posted July 7, 2001 Originally posted by popmusic: Well, I'll be the first to admit I don't play fast... It's not a goal of mine either, so maybe you could write it off as envy. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Pop and Khan... I will confess, I've got a couple quick licks. Not as fast as Chip or whatever, but... My point is...it depends on who you grew up listening to. If you grew up listening to Schenker, Eddie, etc. then you're more likely to aspire to that style. Me? I grew up listening to Duane and Dickey. That's what I fell in love with. My copy of "Fillmore East" had deep grooves where I'd picked the needle up and set it back down copping licks. So that's what I play like. I'm happy with that! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Nowadays, it's not so much the speed, although I admire that, but the, oh, what's the word, "inspiration" of the lick...it's intrinsic musical interest. May be fast, may be slow...but if a lick I hear grabs me and makes me think "That BASTARD, how'd he think of playing that?" http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif then it's a good lick!!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif And he/she is a good guitarist!! And if a lick makes me howl, (we've all heard someone hit something and you just can't help going "OWWWWWWOOOOO!!!!") then IMHO they're a GREAT guitarist! "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 7, 2001 Share Posted July 7, 2001 Originally posted by Scott from MA: You mean like yodelers, or square-dance singers? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I remember in my "money making country" days...there were some people who didn't think you could sing unless you could sing Leroy Van Dyke's "The Auctioneer". Kinda like what "Wipeout" (ugh) is for drummers... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 7, 2001 Share Posted July 7, 2001 And speaking of "fast singers"...how 'bout the R&B divas who take the word "Love" for instance, and make sure it has 168 syllables? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted July 7, 2001 Share Posted July 7, 2001 Ted said: >>> And he/she is a good guitarist!! --------------------------- Ted, you forgot "it". http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/redface.gif But that was another thread from another time http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ------------------ ----------- KHAN (Always hopeful, yet discontent) www.floydtribute.hpwebhost.com So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 7, 2001 Share Posted July 7, 2001 Originally posted by KHAN: Ted said: >>> And he/she is a good guitarist!! Boy, I really ate it on that one, huh? How was I to know that one of the guys that posted probably knew the person in question? That's taught me well to keep my trap shut. Lesson well learned... (sheesh...) thanks for reminding me... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted July 7, 2001 Share Posted July 7, 2001 TED SAID: >>>(sheesh...) thanks for reminding me... -------------------- "IT" was my pleasure... ------------------ ----------- KHAN (Always hopeful, yet discontent) www.floydtribute.hpwebhost.com So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted July 8, 2001 Share Posted July 8, 2001 <> we're talking about sex right? 'cause i am the fastest! never thought it was a bragging point though... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted July 8, 2001 Share Posted July 8, 2001 Kahn - thanks for the kudos.... Speed is relative. What's "faster", an 8th note at 210 BPM or a 16th at 105 bpm? As far as I'm concerned, once you've played more than one note that has a shorter value than a whole note it's an open field for the subjective interpretation of "fast". It's relative. It's always a burden to be revealed as a "shredder" and then have to fight the stereotype. I *can* shred, but it doesn't mean that's all I'm about. Speed is really easy to me, but it's not *in lieu of* something else. I agree that "shredders" for the most part have horrible tastes. If I had to attribute a visual metaphor to it, "flourescent" comes to mind. I don't mind some things being flourescent - but I don't want to live in a flourescent house, for example. What I hate is having to be conscious of the ramifications of it. I used to not even consider that, until it occured to me that people were holding it against me. It's also annoying because a few years ago I noticed people started pulling this routine that works along the lines of "well, you've got the chops but *I've* got the taste" - as if playing "slow" or ignorantly primitive automatically warrants "taste", and having the ability to play "fast" means one can't play "slow". That's a dumb stereotype I can hope to have the chance to prove wrong eventually. ------------------ New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 8, 2001 Share Posted July 8, 2001 All this shit about playing fast or slow is like Baskin Robbins. Fast = rocky road Slow = pecan peach melba What's your favorite flavor? Rocky road? Maybe, but not all the time... Pecan Peach melba? Not all the time on that either... If I can't do it, I appreciate listening to someone who can. There's one blues guitarist that when he starts playing faster, he gets REALLY sloppy. So I'd prefer to hear him play slowly. But someone that can rip has got my blessings. On the country side...saw a video of Albert Lee and Ricky Skaggs (and someone else...Will Ray, maybe?) gettin' down. Serious shit. Just a load of fun! Took the fire dept. a week to put out their fretboards. But, I wouldn't want to listen to it all the time, either. Do what you do the best you can...have fun, play music. If you play a billion notes in a 10 second span, or one...play with your heart, your soul, and your balls (or ovaries as the case may be)... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted July 8, 2001 Share Posted July 8, 2001 Posted by Chip: >>>Kahn - thanks for the kudos.... ----- No problem. You deserve it. To anyone out there who hasn't checked out Chip's mp3.com site you owe it to yourself to do so. Passion,finesse and great chops all rolled into one. One thing though. It seems that the new and improved music coming soon declaration has been up there quite a while. How about a progress report. Also posted by Chip: >>>I noticed people started pulling this routine that works along the lines of "well, you've got the chops but *I've* got the taste" - as if playing "slow" or ignorantly primitive automatically warrants "taste", and having the ability to play "fast" means one can't play "slow". That's a dumb stereotype I can hope to have the chance to prove wrong eventually. ----------------------------------- Well said. Thanks. ------------------ ----------- KHAN (Always hopeful, yet discontent) www.floydtribute.hpwebhost.com So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 Originally posted by KHAN: One thing though. It seems that the new and improved music coming soon declaration has been up there quite a while. How about a progress report. wow, thanks again... Frick. I've had a number of sticks in the fire. I think in terms of "projects" I think I can pull off. It seems I'm currently stalled on most all of them for various reasons.... the latest being a blues-oriented project that needs a singer - and the singer I had lined up isn't working out. So I've got about 4 unfinished things laying about, unfinished for various complicated and bozoish reasons beyond my control. It's getting really aggravating and depressing, but there will be something new "soon"... ------------------ New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald This message has been edited by Chip McDonald on 07-10-2001 at 10:39 AM Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Posted July 11, 2001 Share Posted July 11, 2001 I guess I'm just way more into melody and emotion than whether it's fast or slow. I am more impressed with Lindsey Buckingham than say Al Dimeola though. I hate these guys that have an Em7 to A7 progression going and just noodle over the top. About as boring as it gets in a lot of cases, no matter how technically proficient they are. Of course I'm into vocal music and not instrumental so much unless I'm reading or writing (words not songs, and then I want chamber music, not shredded acoustic guitar). So when Lindsey plays that solo 'Big Love' on 'The Dance' it blows me away cos it's a cool solo guitar bit AND the guy is singing at the same time. To me that's way more impressive than anything Eddie Van ever did (don't get me wrong, I like Edward...). One of the reasons Albert Lee is one of my all time favs is because on his solo albums, he not only blows my mind on guitar, but he has a marvelous singing voice AND plays great piano and mando. I guess in my world, a complete musical individual is just way more impressive than the best soloist in the world. I really don't care if bits (instrumental or vocal) are fast or slow as long as they make musical statements and 'make part live for young Indian Brave.' -David http://www.garageband.com/artist/MichaelangelosMuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Originally posted by popmusic: In the case of a band like Low , they play extremely slow, but their use of empty space between notes (not the actual notes they play) makes them great musicians IMO. Funny, I just made a post mentioning the Melvins.... Who *have* to be the *slowest* band ever. They play some really technical stuff structurally, sort of like slacker grunge Rush... but are really into "sludge". Heard them do a breakdown at a show and they were doing an accent that happened every 3 seconds or so... Black Sabbath's "Electric Funeral" maybe 1/3rd the original tempo... Hilarious stuff, but a significant part of influencing a lot of the Seattle vibe from a seriously "heavy" standpoint. Kids still don't get it today. "Heavy" isn't playing super fast, it isn't p;aying super sloppy, or (as of late) super low - - it's about playing s l o ooooooooooo o o ww w w w. ------------------ New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJ Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 If it were easy to play slow, more people would do it. ------------------ KJ ------------------- bari man low KJ ------------------- "50 million Elvis Presley fans can't be all wrong" - John Prine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emile Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Originally posted by Tedster: And speaking of "fast singers"...how 'bout the R&B divas who take the word "Love" for instance, and make sure it has 168 syllables? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Yeah and even worse all tha R&B boyz who do the same thinking they're divas. Man I'm sure Marvin Gaye and Otis Redding are rolling in their grave with that crap being coined as R&B. Someone missed the point somewhere... Oh yeah on the subject of speed...oh never mind. Harmonic minorly your, Yngwie Gilmour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Originally posted by Chip McDonald: It seems I'm currently stalled on most all of them for various reasons.... the latest being a blues-oriented project that needs a singer - and the singer I had lined up isn't working out. What type of blues-oriented singer? "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Originally posted by Tedster: What type of blues-oriented singer? My big priority is the "putting across conviction", I can't stand the "polished television commercial blues" sound... "Blues oriented" meaning blues accented but open to non-traditional melody. Someone who's going to try to steer around cliches a bit... and non-traditional since I'm doing more of a psychedelic bluesy thing anyhow. Hmph. For some reason Jim Morrison just came to mind... It's such a trick. This guy I'm *trying* to work with has a lot of different angles to his voice, and he tends to know how to use them.. and his intonation is pretty good. The big thing is the blend; he's familiar with the music where I'm coming from, which is I suppose "modern/2nd generation blues" and the pop element as well. So the hybrid approach isn't off putting or weird to him. It doesn't have to be just a straight blues deal, and he doesn't get antiseptically into a pop territory either. As a fan of music he's pretty diverse stylistically which helps enormously. He can sell it, which is the closing argument. I'll see Tuesday I suppose. Otherwise... man, I keep getting psyched up to have a creative outlet, then it gets torn down. I really *need* this kind of a creative outlet right now, I don't like to do *just* instrumental music. ------------------ New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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