bvdd Posted July 5, 2001 Share Posted July 5, 2001 In another thread concerning 'soloing', 'modes', 'scales', etc. .. I found this comment: "I really believe you should concentrate on individual notes. If you get to the point where you can play what you can sing, try to hear what note should come next. If you can't do this, you are playing faster than you should." In my opinion this an absolutely PERFECT statement. Why do we think listeners are interested in 50 notes played in 2 seconds, when no one can tell what a single one of them is or how it relates to the song? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted July 5, 2001 Share Posted July 5, 2001 "I really believe you should concentrate on individual notes. If you get to the point where you can play what you can sing, try to hear what note should come next. If you can't do this, you are playing faster than you should." In my opinion this an absolutely PERFECT statement. Why do we think listeners are interested in 50 notes played in 2 seconds, when no one can tell what a single one of them is or how it relates to the song? Are you serious? Y'know, lots of listeners can hear 50 notes in 2 seconds. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif There should be room for everything in music...sometimes you play slow...sometimes you play fast...as long as you play what you hear instead of just copying someone else, you're being creative...If you're being creative...you're probably making music. How many more posts of rules are you gonna put on this forum and do you really expect everyone to follow your vision of what's right and wrong? http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvdd Posted July 5, 2001 Author Share Posted July 5, 2001 "How many more posts of rules are you gonna put on this forum and do you really expect everyone to follow your vision of what's right and wrong?" Hey Steve, what the hell are you talking about? I'm just expressing my thoughts about things that matter to me and that I see happening around me. If you think I'm dictating rules or looking for followers, then you are taking my posts COMPLETELY the wrong way. I'm sorry if there's something in my words that makes you think that I only enjoy it when people agree with me .. but you're way off base with your assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 5, 2001 Share Posted July 5, 2001 (SQUAWK) "EMERGENCY VEHICLE LOCAL FIRE DEPARTMENT RESPOND TO CALL OF FLAME WAR...MUSICPLAYER GUITAR FORUM..." I personally have never had the problem of playing too fast, except for a couple of times I've been known to get sloppy and play a little too much ahead of the beat. But, I'm a slow player anyway... Guys, relax...have a beer. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvdd Posted July 5, 2001 Author Share Posted July 5, 2001 Yea, let's relax and have a beer. I'll buy the beer. My apology to anyone else who thinks I'm looking for trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted July 5, 2001 Share Posted July 5, 2001 Ted....bvdd lives in NH......duty free liquor....I'd say the beer was on him!!!!!!!!!! I play fast when I really need to use the bathroom........ Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo-x Posted July 5, 2001 Share Posted July 5, 2001 I think the point in playing "fast", per se, is to transcend the ordinary..... then after that, you have to measure how well the transcendence occured, how masterfully it was done, whether it made a musical statement or not..... the guitar is so simple to play, everyone, just about, should be able to pick it up and more or less play something musical on it with the smallest amount of practice....... but to get to the point that you can play what you "hear" in your brain, well, that takes some real talent and dedication. personally, i think the art and music of playing the guitar has gotten "dumbed down" in recent years, as an obvious reaction to the unmasterful wankings of the 80's through 90's popular music.... there is some great music thriving out there, outside of the popular radio culture...... This message has been edited by gonzo-x on 07-05-2001 at 06:17 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvdd Posted July 5, 2001 Author Share Posted July 5, 2001 That's right ..there's no booze tax in NH ..Y'ALL COME. Good point gonzo, I've certainly heard SOME 'lightning' solos that seem to perfectly fit their vehicle, but it would appear that although many players can copy a Van Halen type speedwise, they often miss the emotional glue that sets the line apart. That's half of what I was originally reffering to .. the other half is that 'just playing really fast' seems to have become an expected given over 20 years, just because we can. Young players are probably the most vulnerable to this (I sure was at age 22)..the rest of us old farts probably enjoy the glue more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted July 5, 2001 Share Posted July 5, 2001 bvdd, I'm sorry if I came off too harsh...I woke up with a hangover this morning. I missed the part where you said you were just giving your opinion. Sometimes I play really slow and only a few notes...other times depending on what comes into my head I might play very fast and lots of notes...I try to let the music dictate that in all cases. Peace, Steve http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvdd Posted July 5, 2001 Author Share Posted July 5, 2001 No problem, Steve, Sometimes it's hard to read somebody's motive when you have the words but can't hear the voice. And I also appreciate your retraction because it shows how professional this forum is. All is fine. ... I LOVE YOU MAN! (sorry, couldn't resist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHAN Posted July 5, 2001 Share Posted July 5, 2001 Music is an art form. I like to use the Outback Steakhouse philosophy. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/redface.gif ****************** NO RULES, JUST RIGHT ********************** ------------------ ----------- KHAN (Always hopeful, yet discontent) www.floydtribute.hpwebhost.com This message has been edited by KHAN on 07-05-2001 at 04:42 PM So Many Drummers. So Little Time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanner Posted July 5, 2001 Share Posted July 5, 2001 as i listen to wot i do, it works out to about a note a second... anything faster and i git lost. from~stanner the ham-fisted guitarer~ AMPSSOUNDBETTERLOUDER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 5, 2001 Share Posted July 5, 2001 Originally posted by bvdd: Yea, let's relax and have a beer. I'll buy the beer. My apology to anyone else who thinks I'm looking for trouble. Oh, I didn't think you were looking for trouble...it was just one of those threads that got off to a testy start. We happenin' now... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clockwirk Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 ya'know, i don't really think it has anything to do with hearing the notes individually. Don't get me wrong, I love to just listen to the tone of a single note. but, what's really of value to me is hearing where the note is going, and how it fits into the line. The last thing i want to think when i solo is "note..pause..note..pause..........note..pause" unless that's specifically the line that I hear. I love lots of fast solos. I love to hear how dozens of notes can be strung together to create a vibrant, living, musical line. In those cases, it's not about hearing each individual note, it's about hearing them all moving into each other. See the bigger picture. Has anyone seen those screen savers where it looks like your flying through space with different colors and nebula and stuff? That's what playing fast feels like to me. You don't always drive your motorcycle at 20 mph in order to enjoy every square foot of scenery. Sometimes you just wanna haul ass by everything and experience the blur!! ~clockwirk~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 By the same token, I've heard some dudes live that were quite speedy on their records, and when they'd take a solo live these fast runs sounded like: "CHCHCHCHCHWEEEWEEEHCCHHCHCHCHCHCHCHCHCHWOWOWOWOWWWCHCHCCHCHCHCHCHC" You see their fingers moving 200 mph and all you hear is CHCCHCHCHCHCH...etc... May be bad auditorium acoustics, too much distortion, whatever, but, I hate it when stuff like that is lost in the translation... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Yeah Ted...I do make a conscious effort to slow it down a bit when playing live...sometimes...depends on the situation and who I'm playing for. If I'm playing my stuff, the only control comes from mysterious music gods who take over my body until the shows over. This message has been edited by Steve LeBlanc on 07-05-2001 at 08:59 PM http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BK_dup2 Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 Originally posted by KHAN: Music is an art form. I like to use the Outback Steakhouse philosophy. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/redface.gif ****************** NO RULES, JUST RIGHT ********************** Another jem from the almighty KHAN! I heard this guy in Guitar Center today - he was an eighties throwback kind of dude. He played all that stuff and he was really good. I can't deny that this guy has really worked his butt off even if its not my bag - or atleast not anymore http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I think guitarists are the worst at building eachother up. I know a ton of drummers that are really collaborative and helpful to their peers. Maybe its the whole Gunfighter syndrome that alot of guitarists have towards their instrument. peace BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 If I follow the meaning of the original post, it was discussing technique, not aesthetics. I think the guy was saying that in order to really connect with your instrument and become a fluent soloist, i.e. to be able to play anything that comes to mind, you have to connect your head to your fingers. The way to do this is by playing at a speed where you can think about each note. With practice and experience, this rate should increase. Regarding the taste question, a cascade of fast notes has an effect even when you can't hear every note. Think of a Spanish guitarist strumming very quickly of a pianist sweeping across high speed arpeggios. The effect is something that you can't achieve with half notes. I personally like a mix. Jeff Baxter's solo on Steely Dan's 'The Boston Rag' is great. It starts out very slowly, then eventually goes all over the place. Listeners zone out after a few seconds of relentless superfast playing. You have to vary the pace to keep them interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted July 6, 2001 Share Posted July 6, 2001 I really love Steve Morse's playing on Day 444, and John McLauglin's early Mahavishu (spelling?) stuff. I think what made some folks not care for the lightning guitar riffs were the guys doing all the tapping stuff, prevelant in alot of 80's hair bands. It got to be somewhat of a caricature of itself after a while. Not unlike any other genre though at times. It seemed that even ballads had to include a blazing lightning fast solo, and the guys doing the one big note were looked upon as not as talented. My experience with that was hearing a spandex clad rocker dissing ZZTop in San Diego (though I don't care for Eliminator era). Tasteful play is subjective, and I even like the anti-lead guitar movement some guitarists were sporting for a bit, but it does come off as guitar wanking at times. Technically incredible though. Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted July 7, 2001 Share Posted July 7, 2001 How about the greatest "minimalist" guitar solo ever recorded? Neil Young's "Cinnamon Girl". One note...hehheehehehehehe... "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted July 8, 2001 Share Posted July 8, 2001 Whatever is appropriate. I don't want to hear B.B. King soloing over Metallica. I don't want Kirk Hammett soloing over a slow blues. Playing TOO FAST *does* have a use, if one wants to make a funny statement. For instance - "can I play so fast it will make everyone in the room laugh?". That's when you're fast. That's also when it's time to have fun with another approach. People take things so seriously that are.... subjective interpretation, while ignoring other aspects. The bottom line is making a musical statement, which can be done an infinite amount of ways. If one discounts playing fast, one does so at one's own peril; Hendrix played a very zippy passage in the solo to "Voodoo Chile", and it has as close to a perfect match to the vibe of the song as one could want. What makes playing fast *bad* is that so many people in the 80's made it a "preset". Like a musical batch file. They didn't choose what they played for musical reasons but to see where they could fit something. "Flawless execution" is the betrayer here; you don't flawlessly execute anything when you're going for it. This is a fundamental concept that divides a lot of people: it's why some people liked what Vernon Reid did (I do), and why other people think he "sucks". As long as someone is going for it, the *conviction of attitude* puts it over, nothing else. I've heard wayyyyyyyyyy more people play crummy slow than fast - it's just not as obvious. A preset lick played slow is no better than one played fast IMO. So to me, any discussion pertaining to "speed" should *really* be about that Conviction of Attitude: is it there or not? ------------------ New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve LeBlanc Posted July 8, 2001 Share Posted July 8, 2001 it's why some people liked what Vernon Reid did (I do), and why other people think he "sucks". I love Vernon Reid...have you heard his playing on The Family Stand's album "Moon In Scorpio"? Man, Vernon just jams. http://www.youtube.com/notesleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvdd Posted July 8, 2001 Author Share Posted July 8, 2001 "So to me, any discussion pertaining to "speed" should *really* be about that Conviction of Attitude: is it there or not?" That's exactly right. A perfect example of that for me is the solo in Zeplin's "Heartbreaker". It's not metal speed, but it's about as fast as my brain can follow and still hear the attitude with total conviction. Every tone and phrase of it is an extention of the rest of the song, yet it has NO boundarys whatsoever. A perfect story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted July 8, 2001 Share Posted July 8, 2001 It's funny that you mention Jimmy Page in a "playing too fast" thread. Of the rock "gods", imho Page is among the weakest at "fast" playing. He's maybe THE BEST riff writer, arranger, composer... (I really like the guy), but when he tries to be the "guit-slinger, fastest gun), he's pretty sloppy. Of course, as Chip mentioned, if you're really pushing the edge, you're gonna make mistakes... and Page apparently didn't care since he let his "mistakes" get released. But to me, whether Page played too fast and made some mistakes doesn't matter at all. It's all part of the Page vibe, his personal statement. No matter what your style, level of technique, emotional statement, or whatever... some people are going to appreciate your music or they're not. It's crazy if YOU LIKE "shredding" to give it up or whatever because someone else doesn't like it. In the same way, if you're a "slow hand" player... and YOU LIKE IT, then why care if someone else can rip off three minutes worth of 64th note riffs. Let your heart, ear, soul be the guide... Make music that makes YOU happy... and guess what... the RIGHT PEOPLE, (the ones who like what you do), will naturally gravitate toward your tunes and the "Wrong ones" who will NEVER like your "style" will naturally be unmoved by your playing. The only thing you can do is to try to play in places with some number of the Right People... a room full of the Wrong Ones could end up being a real "Chip" experience. guitplayer I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WFTurner Posted July 9, 2001 Share Posted July 9, 2001 I kinda like the philosophy of Mozart in the movie Amedeus, when the Emporer suggests perhaps his opera has too many notes. Mozarts response is somewhat in the line of "Too many notes sire? But the music has as many notes as it requires!" I don't know how much of that movie is fictional... it doesn't matter.. doesn't matter whether you're talkin a lot of notes or a few notes.. it's a good philosophy... one surely built on an individual artist's unique way of expressing his/her story. No rules required http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif ------------------ William F. Turner Songwriter turnermusic This message has been edited by WFTurner on 07-08-2001 at 08:13 PM William F. Turner Songwriter turnersongs Sometimes the truth is rude... tough shit... get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted July 9, 2001 Share Posted July 9, 2001 Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: I love Vernon Reid...have you heard his playing on The Family Stand's album "Moon In Scorpio"? Man, Vernon just jams. Vernon's amazing! "The Cult Of Personality" blows me away every time I hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bvdd Posted July 9, 2001 Author Share Posted July 9, 2001 It's funny that you mention Jimmy Page in a "playing too fast" thread. Of the rock "gods", imho Page is among the weakest at "fast" playing. He's maybe THE BEST riff writer, arranger, composer... (I really like the guy), but when he tries to be the "guit-slinger, fastest gun), he's pretty sloppy. Of course, as Chip mentioned, if you're really pushing the edge, you're gonna make mistakes... and Page apparently didn't care since he let his "mistakes" get released. But to me, whether Page played too fast and made some mistakes doesn't matter at all. It's all part of the Page vibe, his personal statement. That's just what I meant. He's certainly not shredding on that song but he's playing licks a lot faster than I would (or could) play. And sloppy or not - it's in perfect sync with the total sound around him and with the 'attitude' of the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylver Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 I find that the meatiest guitar solos happen when I slide a salami quickly enough across the strings to slice it in to cold cuts. The grease helps you play faster, too. And after playing, I'm always a little hungry. But seriously, I think as long as the lead truly matches the music, then speed is fine. Steve Morse and Randy Rhodes did some amazing things in context that I just love. Yyvingie Malmstein (Or however you spell it)just never made musical sense to me. He was like a parody of Rhodes and other fast, tasty players. Of course, put on "Dogs" from the "Animals" album by Floyd, then try to talk while it's on and I'll give you such a pinch. Gilmore gives me chills like no other player, and he doens't play anything fast. I really don't know what to put here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip McDonald Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 Originally posted by Sylver: Gilmore gives me chills like no other player, and he doens't play anything fast. Gilmour is it; any superlatives laid upon Clapton always seem to make more sense pertaining to Gilmour IMO. ------------------ New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/ / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat0124 Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 Bluegrass pickers to me rip circles around alot of rock players, however I don't expect a "Man of Constant Sorrow" to have a lightening speed ripping lead on it.....it's all about tasteful play....in ANY genre. I think a guitarist really shows his stripes in a small combo....without a freaking orchestra of musicians behind him. Not that a good player doesn't sound good in that setting.....just when you strip off all the paint, you can hear the real deal. Probably the reason Eric Johnson performs live the way he does. Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.