michael saulnier Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 For anyone who doesn't know him, (he rarely posts in this forum), Fletcher is a real star "voice" on this site. He has strong opinions on most issues and is not shy about sharing them. His company sells all sorts of high end engineering equipment and the rep is that he's a good guy to do business with. Anyway... over in the Engineer's Roundtable Forum, they've been trying to get a MusicPlayer.com Compilation CD going. One that would be backed and promoted by the owners of the site and their trade rags. Long thread, lots of good ideas and debate, plenty of volunteers for both production and music... got all the way to the LAWYER'S... and died. Fletcher posted this... Originally posted by Fletcher@mercenary.com: Have you ever noticed that it's always easiest for the 'lawyers' to say "don't do it"...then they're never wrong. The lack of balls on the part of United Media isn't really surprising...look at all the fucking "happy talk/bullshit" that resides in their magazines. When was the last time you didn't see their lips firmly planted around Behringer's joint? [fill in whatever sub-par bullshit MFG. you'd like for Behringer...] Lord knows they're in this for their love of audio [and monkeys might fly out of my butt]...they're in this for the fucking money they can derive from you guys coming to this site [advertising revenue is based on demographic coverage, and quantity of repeat visitors...yep, I'm guilty of adding to their coffers too, but at least I have a semi-commercial agenda], subscribing to the magazines [everytime they send me a thing on why Mercenary should advertise in their books they always give a demographic breakdown, with all the numbers of how many people they reach, and what those people do...how about that] None of the moderators are here on the "volunteer basis", and the United Media machine isn't losing boatloads of money on their compensated participation. United Media is looking at this thing as a profit center, nothing more, nothing less. In case you haven't noticed...you're not in Ed and Chris's forum...at this very moment, you're in the "Sweetwater Expert Forum"...isn't that special. If you guys really want to do something like this, here's how you can do it. First; go to the usenet group rec.audio.pro. Second; look up Harvey Gerst and pick up the remaining copies of the 3rd r.a.p. compilation called: "RAP 3 Times" (lame but true). Third; suggest to the r.a.p. group that they should do a 4th compilation set...and guess what...you'll have the compilation set you wanted to do here without the corporate monkey boys getting in your fucking way. Imagine...you guys are supporting this horseshit machine by "hitting" this site which drives up the "monthly hits", which translates to 'advertising revenue' from the 'banner ads'...as well as giving them 'free fodder' to promote the site in their magazines...and they don't give shit back to y'all. Does the word 'sucker' mean anything to the members of the congregation? It should. They're giving you so much back in return...(not). The reason this "compilation" didn't fly was there wasn't enough profit in it to make it worth their while...nothing more, nothing less. If we could have guaranteed sales of 50,000 units, they'd have been all over it like a bad smell on shit. Fletch, I hope I haven't erred by reposting this here. I just thought some of us might not be cruising the Engineer thread, but still would want to read it. In my mind... no question... Fletcher ROCKS! guitplayer ------------------ http://www.mp3.com/acousticvoodoo Guitar Forum CD Info http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/Forum19/HTML/000537.html I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtrmac Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 He certainly has a way with words doesn't he? It rings of truth. Maybe I'll head over to the recording.org forums for a while. ------------------ Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan My Music: www.javamusic.com/freedomland Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 The difference between what they were trying to do there, and what we (and Bryce and others) is that they were trying to have something "Officially THE Musicplayer.com CD"...rather than, "We all hang at this forum, let's do a CD". The legal problems came trying to get the corporate lawyers to agree to put "Musicplayer.com " on it. But anything that isn't directly attributable to Musicplayer.com should be cool. "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbrock1san.rr.com Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 One reason Fletcher is here is for the money and potential customers he can attract. I don't have a problem with it, except it's hypocritical of him to rag on others trying to make a buck on this site too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod S Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 I dunno. I was following that topic in the other forum as well, and I got to agree with what alphajerk had said. Yeah, there are people trying to make money of this site. I don't care. The site is well maintained, I've only had a problem acessing the site once, the presentation is clear, and so forth. I joined it in december, after having cruised through a couple of other sites. I don't bother checking other ones anymore. I know I can get the information I need here, and the people are cool and helpful. The whole concept of the 'the internet should be free!' is bullshit. It costs money to maintain a site like this. They don't give shit back to you? Maybe I'm alone in saying that I GET A LOT FROM THIS FORUMS. A year ago I was ready to sell my gear and pick up another hobby. Now I'm actually trying to make my own music. Cool. Dave Bryce is a great moderator. The signal to noise ratio on his (and of the other ones as well) is very high. I've seen BBS's/forums where it just gets plain annoying. I think musicplayer has created a very cool community here, and his accusations don't stand. I agree with his frustration regarding the compilation CD. But generalizing that to this forum, is unfair. If people are trying to make money, so what? And hypocritical it is, as Steve said. I get a lot of help from technical sales/marketing people in my line of work whose main interest is to make money. But the help I get from them is priceless a lot of times. Nika (just to give an example) belongs to Sweetwater. I'm sure he's looking at getting new customers. I would have a problem if all he did was advertise for sweetwater (which he doesn't), but he is extremely helpful. Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II MBP-LOGIC American Deluxe P-Bass, Yamaha RBX760 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 I generally enjoy Fletcher's posts and appreciate his forthrightness and his opinions. However, being forthright and/or opinionated does not guarantee accuracy, as evidenced by his recent, lengthy post. As Chris Stone said, <> Damn right it's outside their area of expertise. UEM is NOT a record company. UEM's lawyers are NOT experts in entertainment law. A project like this, however well-intentioned, has numerous land mines. Who's going to handle publishing? Who will deal with BMI/ASCAP? How many of the participants ARE affiliated with BMI/ASCAP? Who's going to negotiate contracts with all the participants? What if someone was to get sued for plagiarism (I assume nobody here would consciously plagiarize, but it doesn't prevent someone from suing you)? What if one of these songs really breaks through and Sony wants to use it in a film? Does UEM get a cut for promoting it? Or suppose they say no, that's fine, no problem, we don't want a cut...then two weeks later, they're sold to a Sony rival, who decides to get petty. Or a distributor says "Wow, great CD, we can move 50,000 units!" So some poor sucker prints up the 50,000, they go to the distributor, who of course takes 120 days to pay...only problem is, the distributor goes belly-up before paying. Who's out the bucks? Who files the necessary papers to be at the head of the creditors line? Is this going to be mail order only? Then you need people to take orders, deal with fulfillment, handle complaints when something gets lost in the mail, etc. Want to go through stores? Then you need reps to work the stores. This is, quite simply, not the business UEM is in. Now let me address some of Fletcher's points. << Have you ever noticed that it's always easiest for the 'lawyers' to say "don't do it"...then they're never wrong. The lack of balls on the part of United Media isn't really surprising...look at all the fucking "happy talk/bullshit" that resides in their magazines. When was the last time you didn't see their lips firmly planted around Behringer's joint? [fill in whatever sub-par bullshit MFG. you'd like for Behringer...] >> One of the biggest manufacturers in the business just pulled out all their ads from all UEM publications because they didn't like something that appeared in EQ. This happens all the time. It's happened to Keyboard, Guitar Player, Bass Player, you name it. Manufacturers generally don't link to our reviews from their web sites because they consider us too negative and nitpicky. It's easy for people to sit there and bitch when they have no clue how much grief we get from manufacturers, and how much of a financial toll that takes. << Lord knows they're in this for their love of audio [and monkeys might fly out of my butt].>> I look forward to receiving the picture of monkeys flying out of Fletcher's butt. I just completed a major review for Keyboard and I calculate that given all the time I had to put into it, I made about $12.50 an hour. If I wanted to make money, I wouldn't be in this business. I'm in this business because I love this industry, and I can safely say that most of the people at the magazines (and dealing with this site) are fans of music as well. If they were mercenaries, they could find far more lucrative gigs. <<..they're in this for the fucking money they can derive from you guys coming to this site [advertising revenue is based on demographic coverage, and quantity of repeat visitors...yep, I'm guilty of adding to their coffers too, but at least I have a semi-commercial agenda], subscribing to the magazines [everytime they send me a thing on why Mercenary should advertise in their books they always give a demographic breakdown, with all the numbers of how many people they reach, and what those people do...how about that] >> I'm sure it's a major, startling revelation to everyone here that advertisers want to go where there are the most people. Yes folks, believe it or not, that's true! As much as this flies in the face of conventional wisdom, companies don't say "Hey!! Here's a magazine that no one reads/a web site no one visits, let's blow a bunch of bucks and advertise there!!" Why do you think companies pay millions of dollars for 30 seconds of the Superbowl? Because they like football? << None of the moderators are (sic) here on the "volunteer basis" >> You are wrong. For starters, I do not get paid to maintain my forum. The Spanish language forum is also being done on a volunteer basis, as is the DJ forum, drum forum, and others. However, some of the higher-profile people do get paid. << and the United Media machine isn't losing boatloads of money on their compensated participation. United Media is looking at this thing as a profit center, nothing more, nothing less. In case you haven't noticed...you're not in Ed and Chris's forum...at this very moment, you're in the "Sweetwater Expert Forum"...isn't that special. >> I think UEM would be much more likely to look upon this as a profit center if it made a profit. To say that UEM hasn't lost boatloads of money launching this is not only factually incorrect, it fails to give credit to the fact that it HAS been kept alive despite losses, the dot-com crash, and a few other details. We're just starting to turn the corner now, which never would have happened if the company hadn't kept their faith in us while just about every other dot-com was falling apart. It's intellectually dishonest to be upset that Sweetwater is helping pay the bills when *all* of you are logging on for free. Who do you think pays for servers, software, personnel, technicians, artwork, and all that? Folks, you're getting access to this site *for free.* You don't even have to register if all you want to do is lurk. That *is* special, and while we're at it, thanks Sweetwater and everybody else who has given of themselves to keep this show going. And that includes you too, Fletcher, for putting up the kind of posts that, whether fact or fiction, keep people coming back to this site. << If you guys really want to do something like this, here's how you can do it. First; go to the usenet group rec.audio.pro. Second; look up Harvey Gerst and pick up the remaining copies of the 3rd r.a.p. compilation called: "RAP 3 Times" (lame but true). Third; suggest to the r.a.p. group that they should do a 4th compilation set...and guess what...you'll have the compilation set you wanted to do here without the corporate monkey boys getting in your fucking way. >> It seems that a lot of the "getting in the way" has nothing to do with "corporate monkey boys," but with endless discussions about who should be allowed to participate, how long to make it, how many CDs, whether to master it, expecting MP.com to support it, etc. Astonishingly, tens of thousands of CDs manage to be released each year without MP.com's help. << Imagine...you guys are supporting this horseshit machine by "hitting" this site which drives up the "monthly hits", which translates to 'advertising revenue' from the 'banner ads'...as well as giving them 'free fodder' to promote the site in their magazines...and they don't give shit back to y'all. >> We are giving you FREE articles, FREE consulting, FREE forums, a FREE Web page, FREE classifieds, FREE downloads...all FREE, including the 7 FREE drum loops I just gave away in the Battery online seminar. Yeah, we don't give anything to anyone here. We just sit around all day in our BMWs deciding how we're going to spend all the wads of money we're making off of your labors. << Does the word 'sucker' mean anything to the members of the congregation? It should. >> Yeah, if they're being sucked in by some of the uninformed, cliched rhetoric found in Fletcher's post. << They're giving you so much back in return...(not).>> Please refer to previous comments. Maybe you're not aware there's more to this site than the forums. << The reason this "compilation" didn't fly was there wasn't enough profit in it to make it worth their while...nothing more, nothing less. >> I agree. UEM is not in the vanity press business, and whether anyone likes that term or not, that's what is being talked about here. Hello?!? UEM is a business. Yamaha is a business. AOL is a business. Do enough things that lose money, and you lose the business. << If we could have guaranteed sales of 50,000 units, they'd have been all over it like a bad smell on shit. >> 50,000 is not enough to keep an act on any major, or even most minor, labels. I honestly don't think UEM would have been interested if you had guaranteed sales of 100,000. This is NOT a record company. Where would the CDs be stored? Who would deal with distributors? Who would hire independent promoters? Who would score the cocaine and hire the hookers to give to the radio station managers? It think it would take more than $150,000 of infrastructure to properly create, promote, and distribute 100,000 CDs. And then what? Once that infrastructure is set up, then you HAVE to keep feeding it, or it becomes a gigantic loss. UEM does NOT want to be a record label. Of course, you could argue that you wouldn't need to set up an infrastructure. Great: so a couple hundred copies get sold to friends. It's not worth diverting our attention from all the other zillion projects we have going for that, either. You want to know how it's done? Check out Dr. Walker's forum. He's putting out a compilation CD. People send him tracks, he masters and assembles, then puts out the CD. He gets Amazon to carry it. He gets it played on the radio. He does interviews to promote it. And, he sends out checks to the participants when royalties come in. He doesn't whine about corporate monkeys, he doesn't expect support from MP.com, he doesn't engage in endless debates over protocol, HE JUST DOES IT. Maybe if people spent less time looking for villains where none exist, they could do it too. Craig Anderton Creative Director, MusicPlayer.com Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 <> If you detect a "ring of truth," I suggest you get tested for tinnitis. Any ringing isn't coming from the accuracy of Fletcher's assumptions. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedster Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 Craig... I think the Fletch is just P.O.ed. You know Fletcher, he gets p.o.ed rather easily. He'll get over it. No one's going to leave this site just 'cause Fletcher posted what he did. The comp CD ideas won't stop, they'll just take the "Musicplayer.com presents" out of it...and everyone will be happy. I'm happy already...so happy I could polka...nyuk nyuk nyuk... http://www.recordingwebsite.com/graphics/curly.gif "Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJ Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 I was skeptical at first when I saw the ads for musicplayer.com, but I checked it out. I must say that this is easily the website that I visit most often. From the freeflow of technical ideas and philosophical (sp?) discussions in the forums, to the product reviews, to the news releases, the lessons and the hilarious "Off the beat and staff" I enjoy the site immensely. I enjoy devouring as much information about topics that I am interested in and find alot of info on musicplayer. It blows my mind that I can virtually converse with people like Craig Anderton, Ed Friedland, Rick Turner et al whose work I have read previously. I am glad that my repeated visits results in more "hits" so that advertisers will continue to support this valuable resource. How much would it cost to go out and buy copies of all the magazines, books etc. necessary to rival the information contained on this site? If people really want to do a compilation CD, do it yourselves! With the attitude expressed in the Fletcher post (I realize I am reading it out of context and have not read the thread) it seems amazing that he would want UEM to support an endeavor such as a CD. Keep up the great work Craig! P.S. Thanks for the mousepad http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif ! ------------------ KJ ------------------- bari man low KJ ------------------- "50 million Elvis Presley fans can't be all wrong" - John Prine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 <> Yeah, I know. But when sufficiently provoked, it's hard to retain my usually diplomatic demeanor http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Gauss Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 <<50,000 is not enough to keep an act on any major, or even most minor, labels.>> i'm nitpicking for sure as it was thrown off in the course of a response to something else, but 50,000 is a respectable number for a lot of labels including astralwerks (home of france's crictics darlings AIR), alligator (premier blues label), etc.... -d. gauss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bob Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 I disagree with Fletcher that our hits to this site makes us suckers. I think if anything we get more educated and are therefore less likely to be suckers for that advertising. I hardly believe most reviews anymore but I think I have a good feel for some equipment from reading here. Fletcher's constant point is that any piece of equipment might be the right one for a specific task at hand. He apparantly lives in a world of U47's, C 12's, big time preamps, etc. While he is technically correct, the rest of us who want to cover the spectrum with three large condensors need to figure out what their signatures are. That said. I do enjoy his posts and even agree with them to a large degree. Does it bother me that he sells equipment? No. Does it bother me that he might be nuts? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtrmac Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 I have no problem with the idea of Craig Anderton or any of the other highly repected moderators on this forum getting paid for their time. $12.50 an hour does sound a little low though. The ringing I heard was the sound of cash registers I think. My hearing is fine, but my thinking might be a little fuzzy. One thing is clear, the publishers of this forum are here from necessity. Of all the media, print is the hardest hit by the popularity of the internet. I rarely buy magazines now. I can get more than enough information and entertainment with my computer. Television and music distribution are only immune until bandwidth increases enough to permit video and audio streaming. They are apparently making preparations for that. What puzzles me is why print publishers have not made subscription services available for electronic distribution. I would subscribe to a service which would have multimedia presentations of things which interested me. Imagine a microphone shootout with George Massenberg with audio comparisons that could be downloaded or a surround mixing demo by an expert on this subject.I wouldn't mind paying for stuff like that. And I wouldn't miss the paper since our cat died. If print publishers start truly embracing the "New Media" everyone would be happy. Well maybe Fletcher would still find something to complain about but he does it so well that I hope he doesn't stop. ------------------ Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan My Music: www.javamusic.com/freedomland Mac Bowne G-Clef Acoustics Ltd. Osaka, Japan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 Just wanted to say that I always get a kick out of Fletcher's posts whether I agree with them or not (hey, I've made some of my best recordings using 'shit on a stick' devices!) Also very thankful for Craig's presentation of the facts of this situation. This is a great place to hang! davecharles@musician.com -David http://www.garageband.com/artist/MichaelangelosMuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratman_dup1 Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Damn Craig, that darn near brought tears to my eyes. And MusicPlayer ROCKS!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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