I'm on the verge of a breakthrough.......but I need your help.

[aframe9999]

I've been playing guitar for several years and have become a fairly proficient lead player. But I've always relied on the major and minor pentetonics.

 

---BORING---

 

Just recently I've started investigating modes. Everyone talks about them, so I figured that I better jump on the wagon. Now, I can see how using different modes over different progressions can add the different 'shades' to a lead.

 

Now, I completely understand modes, how they are constructed, how they relate to each other, and how to play them.

 

What I am struggling with is WHEN to play which mode. Are there any guidlines to follow? Do you figure out one mode to play over the entire progression, or do you change modes as the chord changes. I need to know for example, lydian vs ionian. or Dorian vs. aeolian. How do you know?

 

Once I get a grasp of the 'which mode to play when' delimma, I will become an entirely new player. I'm almost there, but I'll need some guidance. Everyone has the experience of reaching a plateau, not progressing, then finally breaking through to a new level. I'm right there and it's awesome!!

 

Thanks!

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by aframe9999:

Once I get a grasp of the 'which mode to play when' delimma, I will become an entirely new player.

 

Know that you don't force a mode on music, that music is in a mode to begin with. Know that the mind, if raised in the western hemisphere, wants to hear things relative to a certain group of 7 notes. Figure out what I mean by that and modes will be easy.

 

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New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Jimmy James]

Think of it like having an extra crayon in your box. You pick the crayon that you want to use. Over a Dm7th chord Dorian will sound one way and Aeolian another. What do you want to hear? Play what you want to hear as opposed to using a mode over a chord just because it's there.

 

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http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/144/oscar_jordan.html

[Dylan]

Modes can be a lot of fun and offer some very nice tonal options. But don't get caught up in the notion that you 'have' to use them to produce anything that doesn't sound "boring". In fact, if you abuse modes they can make your music sound too thought out or fatiguing to the listener. While experimenting with modes, you might also try experimenting with playing regular major/minor pentatonic scales over different chords. For example, play a D minor pentatonic over a G7 blues progression. This will give you some nice tensions that aren't present in a regular G minor pentatonic scale without having to learn any new scales.

 

Good luck,

 

Dylan

 

 

This message has been edited by Dylan Walters on 05-21-2001 at 04:08 PM

[clockwirk]

Originally posted by aframe9999:

What I am struggling with is WHEN to play which mode. Are there any guidlines to follow? Do you figure out one mode to play over the entire progression, or do you change modes as the chord changes. I need to know for example, lydian vs ionian. or Dorian vs. aeolian. How do you know?

 

 

Modes offer a change of color within a key without altering your basic tonality (Major vs. Minor, or changing tonic).

You can figure out modes to play over a given progression. Sometimes a progression will be written out of a certain mode. For example: If you are in D Minor, and the progression is d - F - G - C, you can play the dorian scale without worrying about having note clashes. Dorian is simply the minor scale with a raised sixth. The fact that you have a G major chord in the above progression implies dorian because in d natural minor, the G chord would be minor. The note that changes, B to Bb between G major and minor, is the sixth of the d minor scale being raised and lowered.

Sometimes you'll run into progressions that involve both. For example: d - C - Gsus - G - Bb - C - d. The first half of this prog. is in d dorian with the B natural in the G major chord. The second half is in d natural minor with the Bb as the 1 in the Bb major chord. You'll have to alter your mode when playing over this. Of course, you could just play the minor pentatonic over the whole thing with no problems because the minor pent doesn't have the sixth of the key in it, but as you said, that can get a little boring.

You can also use modes to change colors over a very simple vamp. If your band is just hanging on a d minor chord, you have the option to choose the dorian color, natural minor color, harmonic minor, phrygian, or any combination you want as long as it's based around the minor d harmony.

Some people think dorian when they're playing over a 2 chord in a particular key. For example: a ii - V - I in the key of C. The progression would be dm7 - G7 - CM7. Some would say you want to play in d dorian over the ii, G mixolydian over the V7, and C ionian over the I, but they're all really the same scale.

Mode differences:

Major modes - Ionian (major), Lydian (major w/#4), Mixolydian (major w/b7)

Minor modes - aeolian (minor), dorian (minor w/#6), Phrygian (minor w/b2)

Diminished mode - locrian (minor w/b2 and b5)

Hope this helps. Many people feel like modes involves too much theory. The danger of modes is that you can end up concentrating on "playing a mode" rather than listening to the music. Keep expanding your ears!!

[art]

Pentatonic scales don't have to be boring. Used in the right context they can sound really "hip". Check out Scott Henderson's instructional video "Jazz Fusion Improvisation". You need not be into Jazz/Fusion to appreciate this video. In it, he shows you how to apply simple major scales over simple and complex chords. He also goes over a number of ways of using simple minor pentatonic scales to play over different chords. Really cool stuff. Modes can be cool too when applied in the right context but minor pentatonics are so easy for guitarists to play. It plays so naturally on the guitar 'cuz the damn thing is tuned to Emin pentatonic. Just my $.02

[strychn1neaol.com]

It was easy for myself to become a modal player when i started listening to jazz. Listening to jazz opened up my ear and made it more natural to play outside the pentatonic box. Before i listened to jazz diminished scales would torture me but now i have incorporated many diffent scales. Harmonic Minor isn't a mode but is my personal fav.

[gtrmac]

I don't want to be a wet blanket here but I think a modal approach to improvisation can be dangerous in some ways. I have found that some players get caught up in modal "riffing" and their playing can lack a melodic quality. The players who I most appreciate seem to be immune to a modal analysis. Guys like Wes montgomery, Jeff Beck and Jimi Hendryx always seem to be playing melodies. You can certainly use a modal analysis to see how these melodies relate to the chord over which they are played but playing the same mode in a linear way is usually very boring in comparison. I had a teacher for a little while who would break the modes into small clusters of notes in one position and then asked me to practice making melodies with these small building blocks. I found this method helpful as far as trying to play melodically. The guys who seem to be running through a bunch of modes while improvising usually bore the hell out of me. Just something to think about.

[dansouth]

Modes and pentatonic scales are fine, but can you play over chord changes, i.e. can you pick notes from a suitable arpeggio or scale for each chord in the progression? This knowledge is vital. Modal soloing is kind of a step backward from playing over changes in that you're applying a degree of simplification by sticking to a single mode over chords that may or may not fit that mode closely. The modal approach works, but it works best when you first understand what you're simplifying.

[truebeliever]

This may be considered a step before, or a step beyond, modes, but I really believe you should concentrate on individual notes. If you get to the point where you can play what you can sing, try to hear what note should come next. If you can't do this, you are playing faster than you should. Modes are great, but don't confine yourself to mathematics, or it will show.

[D_dup3]

TRUST YOUR EARS ! When it sounds like what you want it to---THAT'S IT !

[Sylver]

Originally posted by d:

TRUST YOUR EARS ! When it sounds like what you want it to---THAT'S IT !

Amen.

[D_dup3]

I've learned a lot from the work I've done over the years studying theory & technique. They are great tools but music is what we HEAR.

[the stranger]

Trusting your ears and what you hear is good advice.

 

I say trust what you FEEL more than anything else. How does a certain combination of notes make you feel? What sort of spiritual enlightenment do you get from a solo?

 

When you can play a solo that makes peoples (your's included) hair stand on end at the peak of the solo, you'll know you got it right. Theory won't matter when you can reach out and wreak havoc on somebody's nervous system.

 

This message has been edited by dr destructo on 07-05-2001 at 05:35 AM

[evil_kinevil]

I don't have an answer, and two things occur to me here:

 

1. i am at a similar point to you. When you figure it out, let me know!!!

 

and secondly

 

2. Most of these guys are talking shit. Except the guy who said use your ears, because that is what music is about after all.

 

I reckon, keep going and you will get it. Getting there is half the fun. Apparently.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by evil_kinevil:

2. Most of these guys are talking shit. Except the guy who said use your ears, because that is what music is about after all.

 

Sigh...

 

 

 

 

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New and Improved Music Soon: http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Jason Poff]

Evil,

Simply because you don't understand what someone is talking about, does not mean they're talking shit.

[D. Gauss]

and for dessert, we have "shit a la mode"....

 

-d. gauss

[clockwirk]

Of course your ears are the most important tools you have when you improvise, but the fact is, most of us need a little help expanding what we can hear inside our heads. When i started playing, i didn't hear different modal sounds in my head as options to play with until this teacher made me sit down and write all of them out in every key until i understood what i was doing. my first reaction was, "this sucks, what am i doing?" but after playing with them with some understanding, it opened up a new arena of music to me. Now i just have another option when i play.

to me, learning the sounds and theory behind modes and "using your ears" are not two different things. They're part of the same process. It's also not a step backwards IMO from playing over changes. Just a different vibe. Miles Davis went from playing over changes to experimenting with modal music. Was he taking a step backwards?

Regardless, aframe wanted the modal system explained to him. Telling him why it's not legit doesn't help that much.

[art]

Using your ears is great advice. Listening to the music and opinions of other musicians can be a powerful learning tool. But if you don't LISTEN, then you're not using your EARS..........

[zboy2854]

One key to modes is learning which chords can be identified as uniquely modal. For instance, a Dorian progression could be distinguished from a standard minor progression by the II-7 and IV7 chords rather than the II-7b5 and IV-7 that are in a standard minor progression. A couple of examples of Dorian progressions are Moondance by Van Morrison and Holding Back the Years by Simply Red. For a Lydian progression, you'd look for a II7 and #IV-7b5 chord rather than the II-7 and IVmaj7 you'd find in a regular major scale. Try harmonizing each mode and seeing what chords are unique to each, and then you'll be able to better hear them.