you don't need no teacher...

[delirium]

Hey beginners out there, all you need is talent and will. If you dont have both no teacher will help, but if you do - teacher can mess you up.

 

If I read e.g. about Errol Garner earlier I wouldnt take lessons in my childhood (in fact I took whole school of lessons) and now I dont play like Errol

 

A self-taught pianist who never learned to read music, Erroll Garner was nevertheless one of the most popular jazz musicians of the 1950s.

 

Erroll Garner proved that it was possible to be a sophisticated player without knowing how to read music, that a creative jazz musician can be very popular without watering down his music, and that it is possible to remain an enthusiastic player without changing one's style once it is formed.

"I find Garner as important technically as Horowitz or Chopin perhaps was," continued Moore. "The fact is that Chopin had a fixed technique when he was 26 years old and the same is true of Garner. Very early on he had this extraordinary mobility on the piano."

Errol Garner

[Dave Horne]

Exactly! That's the spirit!

 

I propose a book burning - just theory and scale books. There's nothing like a good book burning to bring people together in a common cause.

 

(It will take some time for those extra jobs to show up, but this is the best way to achieve our goals. Next meeting, my place - Thursday evenings at 7 to discuss more strategies.)

[delirium]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

I propose a book burning - just theory and scale books. There's nothing like a good book burning to bring people together in a common cause.

Dave, that's a really great idea, there are so many junk book out there! And when you look into history - so many good things started with burning

 

p.s

7 pm at your place is OK with me, since I'm just visiting Europe

[stepay]

Hmm. So much to say on this. [and yes, I realize delirium that you are kidding with this thread]

 

1) Erroll Garner was a musical genius. Most people who learn to play an instrument are not. He took it a step further than even I would suggest, but that's because he had boatloads of talent (genius level). To try to follow his path for most people would be silly. Glad HE did what he did though. Geniuses should NEVER be held back by using books (and other learning methods) that other non-geniuses wrote. The world needs geniuses to pave the way -- that's how we press on as a society.

 

2) MOST people (as in the vast majority) should involve a teacher. This can even be a situation where the student is more talented than the teacher but just doesn't yet know as much as the teacher. This learning should involve theory, proper playing technique, scales, and practice, practice, practice -- and lots of that can come from books even.

 

A musical genius following traditional learning methods is like a multi-millionaire cleaning his own bathroom. In the case of the multi-millionaire, his time is worth much more money than it would cost to pay a maid to clean it. Erroll Garner should have been self-taught. Most people shouldn't be.

 

I get MISTY just writing all this.

[Joe Muscara]

Speaking of teachers, I'm friends with one, and he has a student that's very advanced, perhaps as good or better than he is. Why is this student going to him? For an outside opinion, someone to make suggestions and give him ideas, watch his technique. This kind of thing can work as long as the student and teacher generally agree and the teacher can help the student in whatever areas they see fit. I think it's pretty cool. You can always learn.

[SilverDragonSoun]

Well maybe not a piano teacher but saying "you don't need no teacher... " is a double negative so a teacher to help refresh our grammar isn't a bad idea.

[delirium]

Originally posted by Silver Dragon Sound:

Well maybe not a piano teacher but saying "you don't need no teacher... " is a double negative so a teacher to help refresh our grammar isn't a bad idea.

really? It is perfectly proper grammar. Have you ever heard "another brick in the wall" ?

here you are:

 

We dont need no education.

We dont need no thought control.

No dark sarcasm in the classroom.

Teacher, leave those kids alone.

Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone!

All in all its just another brick in the wall.

All in all youre just another brick in the wall.

 

We dont need no education.

We dont need no thought control.

No dark sarcasm in the classroom.

Teachers, leave those kids alone.

Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone!

All in all youre just another brick in the wall.

All in all youre just another brick in the wall.

BTW, There is some wisdom in that song...

[mate stubb]

Actually, "Don't need no" literally translates to "do need a". Just sayin'.

[kad]

Originally posted by stepay:

Geniuses should NEVER be held back by using books (and other learning methods) that other non-geniuses wrote.

J.S. Bach learned from books. A genius leverages the knowledge of others in their field, then takes that knowledge to new and exciting places.

 

Oops - sorry Dave. What I meant to say was, no genius has ever used a book. Great composers work in a vacuum - no exceptions.

 

Just teasin' y'all. Was the grammar of that last sentence ok?

[ITGITC]

delirium,

 

That's called poetic justice.

 

Don't need no translates to Do not need no. This should be Do not need any or don't need any.

 

Regarding teachers, I've been playing piano all my life and I certainly could use a teacher - and/or a mentor.

 

You never stop learning & it's always a good thing to have a 3rd party objectively helping you improve.

 

Education is a good thing.

 

Happy Holidays Delirium.

 

Tom

[delirium]

Originally posted by mate_stubb:

Actually, "Don't need no" literally translates to "do need a". Just sayin'.

It's figure of speech, you don't always translate

literally everything. Thats the beauty of language and communication between homo sapiens...

What you'd end up with if you've tried to take poetry literally...

[stepay]

Originally posted by kad:

Originally posted by stepay:

Geniuses should NEVER be held back by using books (and other learning methods) that other non-geniuses wrote.

J.S. Bach learned from books. A genius leverages the knowledge of others in their field, then takes that knowledge to new and exciting places.

True. Even Erroll Garner did that -- just not traditional standard notation. Sometimes a genius doesn't need to bother with the paths others have created at all and blazes his new trail. The work of others isn't always THAT important to all geniuses.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by delirium:

 

It is perfectly proper grammar.

Yes - poetic justice. Understood.

 

However, "Don't need no" is considered slang. It's OK for Pink Floyd to have a chorus of boys singing it in Another Brick in the Wall. But, if you were addressing the President of the United States, you wouldn't want to look like a fool by thinking that this is perfectly proper grammar.

 

"Don't need no" is NOT perfectly proper grammar within the english language.

 

You told me earlier that english is your second language. Please - don't take offense, but you need to check your facts before you start to argue these points.

 

Tom

[delirium]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

"Don't need no" is NOT perfectly proper grammar within the english language.

 

You told me earlier that english is your second language. Please - don't take offense, but you need to check your facts before you start to argue these points.

Tom [/QB]

do not agree anyway. I speak few other languages and double negation is OK. It IS proper grammar, even if the meaning can be opposite though.

 

Wow, I can hear everyday bad English, broken grammar etc in English speaking Americans so the fact you brought it up it's rather funny, because one has nothing to do with the other. E.g. how about Joseph Conrad?

 

But that's not the point of that post

We need to burn some books - bad teachers maybe not just yet.

 

Happy holidays to you too

[Billdar]

Musical genius of the magnitude that Errol Garner possessed is rare indeed. For the rest of us, I think that taking lessons from a GOOD teacher is the best way to reach maximum potential.

 

Cheers! And have great holidays!

[delirium]

Originally posted by stepay:

Hmm. So much to say on this. [and yes, I realize delirium that you are kidding with this thread]

Stepay, I wasn't kidding entirely.

Thats why I used "controversial" grammar in the header on this topic, which wasnt understood properly, and it had double meaning really.

[Eric Iverson]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Exactly! That's the spirit!

 

I propose a book burning - just theory and scale books. There's nothing like a good book burning to bring people together in a common cause.

 

(It will take some time for those extra jobs to show up, but this is the best way to achieve our goals. Next meeting, my place - Thursday evenings at 7 to discuss more strategies.)

Well, I like bonfires, myself - and it might inspire me to get rid of the hundreds of books I have I can't bear to part with.. the packrat syndrome!

 

Are there are any fellow packrats out there, who will pick up any piece of junk and add it to their collection, never to be discarded... (you can PM if you want to. Maybe we can start up a new organization... Packrats Anonymous!)

[stepay]

I agree with finding a good teacher -- might have to struggle with and fire a couple bad ones first. After traditional lessons and then learning to jam with a band, I studied with Detroit bluesman Rico Cooper, and he was GREAT. Got lucky there.

[Jim Alfredson]

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

delirium,

 

That's called poetic justice.

I think you mean "poetic license".

 

Anyway, do what works best for you. Finding a good teacher is difficult, but can be rewarding. I'm self-taught and so far that has worked for me.

[ITGITC]

Originally posted by B3-er:

Originally posted by Is There Gas in the Car?:

delirium,

 

That's called poetic justice.

I think you mean "poetic license".

 

Oooops. Poetic license, poetic justice.

 

We don't need no stinkin' poetic justice.

 

It's the stress.

 

I can't go on like this.

 

Somebody hand me a candy cane.

 

Goodbye cruel world.

[Jazz+]

It was a real struggle for Erroll Garner every time he tried to learn a new tune. Learning to read would have been an asset for him.

[lerber3]

You sure you're not no troll?

[stepay]

Regarding the use of double negatives, I can't tell if delirium is just joking or not, but double negatives are obviously not acceptable English grammar. As has already been pointed out, if you "don't need no teacher" then that means you DO need a teacher.

 

Of course if we go by what musicians sing in songs, then we're all in a heap of trouble.

 

"If I WAS to say to you" -- The Doors

"Just the two of us, you and I" -- Grover Washington

 

I have an M.A. in English Education, and used to teach middle school and high school, and the double negative thing always made my spine tingle. Unfortunately, the way people speak is determined more by what they hear in the home than what a teacher tells them (unless they REALLY REALLY want to change). My kids don't use double negatives, but only because they don't hear their mother or me at home use them. They will never really have to learn not to use double negatives. Though they will learn later WHY not to.

[Jim Alfredson]

Language is like music, always evolving. I don't buy into the whole "correct grammar" thing.

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by B3-er:

Language is like music, always evolving. I don't buy into the whole "correct grammar" thing.

Qqxz iii sknrt gruudl.

[kad]

My favorite quote of all time: "I have no respect for a man that can spell a word only one way." - Mark Twain

 

Here's a a good one for you: "But if this ever changing world in which we live in..." - Paul

 

Grammatical errors in the above:

 

1) The sentence begins with a conjunction, which should be strictly relegated to linking independent clauses.

 

2) The final word "in" is superfluous.

 

3) The final word "in" is the ultimate breach of grammatical etiquette in that it causes the sentence to end with a preposition.

 

See... when it comes to grammar, I ain't no dummy!!

[Eric VB]

If we can't have "correct grammar", even for the shortest interval of time, why bother having grammar at all?

[iLaw]

"What if God was one of us"? I bet Joan meant to use the subjunctive.

[delirium]

Originally posted by B3-er:

Language is like music, always evolving. I don't buy into the whole "correct grammar" thing.

exactly, great comparison Language is living thing. Like in music some chords were improper some time ago, now are very common.

 

The true beauty of language is found in poetry,

which is really equivalent of jazz improvisation.

[Blue JC]

Originally posted by delirium:

Hey beginners out there, all you need is talent and will. If you dont have both no teacher will help, but if you do - teacher can mess you up.

Hey, beginners out there: there are two sides to every story.

 

I suspect that there are more young people lurking than posting on this forum. If you ask around, I think you will find that players like Errol Gardner are the exception and not the rule.

 

In my opinion, you can become an excellent piano player without a teacher but it is much easier to do so with a good teacher - especially when you are just starting out. It is even harder to become an excellent musician without a teacher.