POLL: Best Digital Piano Sound

[Jazz+]

Most keyboardists here have played the various models live or in the stores. Perhaps not the Promega since it's rare.

 

You may listen to the same MIDI file as played by the MP8, RD-700SX, and Promega 3 This poll is not supposed to be based just on the Purgatory Creek mp3.

 

http://purgatorycreek.com/

[edp]

Does purgatorycreek have an S90 ES sample? Should we just listen to the Motif ES and assume they sound the same? Someone made an S90 ES recording of the purgatory creek sample and posted it in another thread. I could dig that up if necessary.

[Jazz+]

edp,

 

It would be great if you could post the S90-ES link, thanks.

 

J+

[Jazzwee]

edp, you cannot compare a Motif ES sound to an S90ES sound. The S90ES Piano is a new sound and the S90ES was only available last september (and really only widely distributed in December -- for a variety of reasons). The Motif ES piano appears in the S90ES as an extra sound but it is not the main piano which is called "Natural Piano".

 

It also cannot be compared to the S90 sound which is poor in comparison. I've done recordings on the S90ES and experienced listeners have been amazed.

 

The S90ES sound has the largest piano sample (58 meg) in the entire Yamaha family and also supports half damper pedalling. It also sounds better than any of the Yamaha plug-in cards. According to the experts at Motifator/Sninety.com, they believe the sound of the S90ES is better than the P250. I personally believe this as well from playing a P250.

 

I don't have enough experience with non-Yamaha models to criticize other brands.

 

Unfortunately, a poll like this may not be too helpful since it may just reflect the current distribution of the top keyboards in the population.

 

Based on sound alone from the Busch's site, which does not include the P250 or S90ES, the RD700SX sounded pretty good. But don't know how that same midi file would compare to the two missing keyboards. As discussed to death in the other thread, this does not speak to expressivity of the particular board.

 

I was blown away by the Ivory sound though. I thought heard even the tapping on the keys. It was so darn realistic. Maybe you should just use your old P250 as a controller and run Ivory!

[edp]

Note: This post has been corrected. The sample is from an S90, not an S90 ES.

--

 

OK, this is a sample originally posted by daBowsa in the thread "Vote off one of these pianos...".

 

This is a tweaked voice, based on the S90's much-acclaimed S700 voice.

 

S90: "Mojo S700"

[Jazzwee]

Here's some text from the Yamaha site.

 

The Most Expressive Piano Voice Available in a Synth

 

In designing the S90 ESs new grand piano voice, the focus was in creating a voice that produces naturally sounding long tones even when played at a pianissimo level. To realize this goal, a generous 53MB of memory was dedicated to this voice to use longer samples of a specially selected S700 grand piano a $250,000 acoustic grand handcrafted by Yamahas master artisans. Played at normal tempos and dynamic levels the sound of this voice is truly superb, but its at the opposite end of the tempo and dynamic range that the results are most stunning. The longer waves give each note a very natural sustain that, when used on ballads and slow, exposed pieces, plays expressively with a full, natural sound.

 

This voice also features stretch tuning and a damper resonance effect, which bring this voice even closer to reality by simulating the inner workings of an acoustic grand piano. Damper resonance simulates the resonance of the strings and soundboard when the damper pedal is pressed a factor that contributes to the unique sound of a grand piano. Using the sustain pedal on soft, slow pieces it adds a rich resonance to the pianos tone and enhances its natural sustain and decay.

 

Half Damper Capability

Some classic pieces call for a half damper technique, where the damper pedal is pressed half way down raising the felts only partially off the strings. As the sustain function on most synths is a simple on/off operation, such use is normally unavailable. The S90 ES however, is able to respond to small changes in the FC-3 foot controllers pedal position due to its half damper capability. This gives the performer greater control over the muting by the damper, and expressive freedom to create the subtle nuances required by the music.

 

[Clavinovaguyusa]

The Promega 3 files did not work for me. Is there a problem with them on the site?

[Jazz+]

There's no problem, I'm playing the GEM Promega 3 files at this moment.

[Jazzwee]

edp, I think DaBowsa sold his S90 not S90ES. So that sound is the old S90.

 

But here's the issue, although the piano on the old S90 sounds fine with this MIDI, I can tell you for sure that it sounds awful at higher velocities around C-3/C-4 (I forgot exactly where now). This demonstrates the weakness of testing using MIDI.

 

Like I said earlier, the sound to compare is the "Natural Piano" of the S90ES not the S700 Triple Strike.

[Dave Horne]

I will never make a purchasing decision based on a mp3 file. I did that once with the 'Coakley Perfect Piano Series' and got burned.

 

I have since come to the conclusion that there is a very valuable interaction between the sample and the controller. I have also learned that the sound system used is extremely important.

 

For me, at least, the only way to give a worthwhile opinion is to play the actual keyboard\controller connected to an excellent sound system. The samples at Purgatory Creek might seem like a good idea, but mp3 files are not the same as playing the piano through your own system. Playing the system in question on a job for an entire evening is probably the best way to go.

 

I'm basing most of what I have just written on my bad experience with the 'Perfect Piano'.

[Jazzwee]

You are quite right there Dave. The thunk thunk on the S90 can not be heard on MIDI because typically a MIDI is typically compressed to the middle range of velocity. In real playing, it will depend on how hard you play the keys.

 

For example, on the S90ES, the expressiveness on the pianissimo sounds is just exquisite. It won't be apparent on any MIDI because you will know this by feel.

 

Thus by the same token, many wonderful keyboards out there (Promega 3?) will not get the same attention since we are all focused on the tonality of the midrange velocity without attention to expressiveness.

 

That's why one has to respect an individual's choice on keyboards because we all express our music differently. Thelonius Monk would have no use for the dynamics of an S90ES. He was high velocity kind of guy.

[edp]

Jazzwee - you're right, that was the S90. Sorry everyone. Jazzwee, you don't have your S90 ES hooked up to a computer, do you?

[resigned]

This is just further proof that if you have ten different polls on pianos you'll have ten different results...

[Jazzwee]

edp, I have a hum and static on my current soundcard and it needs replacement. So that's why I'm not offering to make an MP3. It would sound bad.

[JeffLearman]

While the Purgatory Creek comparison is great and fun, you can't use it to tell which is the better piano.

 

You see, any decent player plays the instrument he or she is playing. So, when that guy recorded the piece, he was playing a given piano and responding to its nuances.

 

Playing the same MIDI file back on other pianos is not the same as a gifted pianist playing the same piece on the different pianos.

 

So, it's interesting and even useful, but not sufficient to pick between pianos you'd want to own or play -- even ignoring the feel of the keyboard (i.e., if you were getting a module-only version to use with your favorite master keyboard).

 

Too bad we can't all go somewhere with the main popular pianos set up and play them and then decide which we like best. (Of course, that still won't tell us how it sits in a mix with a band, etc.)

[Finale]

Yep, to choose a piano according to a MP3 demo or to other people opinions is one of the best ways to regret your purchase.

 

It doesn't matter if 20 other people vote for brand/model X if you personally prefer brand/model Y after playing it. Follow your intuition.

[Jazz+]

This poll is not supposed to be based on the Purgatory Creek mp3. Most keyboardists here have played the various models live or in the stores. But maybe not the Promega since it's rare.

 

The Purgatory Creek demo plays a wide range of dynamics, registers and textural densities. It was composed to reeveal a digital pianos qualities not market a product the way manufacturer's demos do.

[Bridog6996]

Well, case in point:

 

Based on PurgatoryCreek alone, I'd say that the RD700SX sounds the best, and I voted as such. However, having personally played all of the keyboards in question (except the 90ES), the one I would pick is the MP8. All of them have a different character when you actually play them, and the MP8 sounds and feels the best for me.

[Moonglow]

I know in polls such as this there is always the issue of where to draw the line, but I was wondering why a Kurzweil model was not included. Not that I'm overly attached to the Kurzweil piano sound.....actually, I'm a GEM fan.....just would liked to have seen how it fared in comparison to the others.

[daBowsa]

Originally posted by learjeff:

You see, any decent player plays the instrument he or she is playing. So, when that guy recorded the piece, he was playing a given piano and responding to its nuances.

Don't forget, that guy is our own BurningBush.

 

Yes, my sample was the Mojo 700 from the S90. edp - you should correct your original post. Not everyone reads threads all the way to the bottom to look for corrections.

[JeffLearman]

Gee, I didn't realize that. Good for him! And now the first post makes more sense to me, but frankly I'd rather see the whole list of the best candidates.

 

Not having played any of the top candidates, though, I won't vote. I have played RD700, Yamaha P80, and Clavinova though, and like my trusty old Ensoniq MR76 better than these. (MUCH better than P80 and Clavinova, but I could probably get used to the DR700 and end up liking it better.)

 

I guess I'm a bit out of date!

[JeffLearman]

OK, I can't view the results without voting. Should I cast a random vote?

[Jazz+]

Current Vote:

 

Roland RD-700SX 52% (12)

Yamaha P250 (CP300) 4% (1)

Yamaha S90-ES 17% (4)

Kawai MP8 9% (2)

GEM Promega 3 17% (4)

[Stephen Fortner]

Hi people,

 

I wanted to offer a clarification, seeing as one of the choices is "Yamaha P250 (CP-300)." Contrary to one rumor, the CP-300 is not the same piano sample as the P-250. In fact, the main stereo grand sound is nearly double the wave size, with almost every key sampled.

 

I don't have one in for review yet, but I will soon, and you'll be the first to know how I think it sounds.

[keynote]

I think the new Roland RD-700SX Acoustic Pianos are probably the best out there for a Digital Piano. For a traditional Workstation I would have to say the Korg OASYS is near the top as well as the Roland Fantom X in my opinion.

[Jazz+]

"The 16 bit linear equivalent for the P250 Grand Piano #1 is in the neighborhood of 34-37 MB uncompressed, compressed it is 22MB."

 

"The Yamaha CP300 is the flagship of the stage piano series. It features a 40MB 3-Layer stereo piano sample with sustain and key-off, and graded hammer action keys."

 

Is the 40MB the compressed or uncompressed waveform data?

Will it be able to trump the nice new piano in the S90-ES?

[eric]

The new Yamaha CP300 looks very cool and I'm looking forward to trying it. Too bad it is so heavy!

[Jazzwee]

Given that there is no compressed or uncompressed statement on the CP300, and there is similarly no similar statement of compression on the S90ES, one would assume that the 53Meg samples on the S90ES is larger than the CP300. Do you know when the CP300 was released? There have been other improvements in samples in the middle of the S90 and S90ES and it was placed in the PLG150-AP plug-in board. Perhaps it was also used in other models.

 

As far as I know, at the time the S90ES was released in September, no other Yamaha instrument was using these S90ES samples because it was stated like that in advertising.

[Jazzwee]

I see that the CP300 is a new model, after reading the Yamaha site info. As usual, it has the graded hammer action which is different from the S90ES's balanced hammer action. Both have half damper, which do not appear in older Yamaha models (pre-S90ES) and 128 polyphony. There is suprisingly no mention of the piano sampled while the advertising on the S90ES always refers to the custom $250,000 piano used. So reading betweeen the lines, it sounds like another new sample. This wouldn't be so suprising since the piano on the Motif ES series was always different from the P Series. Though I am curious about the logic sometimes. Since this is the new flagship Stage Piano, I would imagine it would also have sounds that are better than the P250. And since they have always broken out the P Series market segment away from the Motif/S Series it wouldn't suprise me if the were parallel piano sounds maybe with a different character.

 

BTW, on both the S90ES and the CP300, the improvement over the older models is the damper resonance insertion effect (which I'm guessing is alternate wording for sympathetic resonance). This was what I was referring to in the other thread about modeled sound added to sampled sound.

 

If I'm going to make a guess based on their prior marketing, the S90ES would probably have lighter keys than the CP300.

 

It would be interesting to see what's new here. I'm just doing guesswork for fun. So don't anyone flame me about this later.

[edp]

DaBowsa - I fixed my post. I didn't realize you could do that actually, thanks for the tip. Sorry for the confusion.