KDFX Mode Resetting By Itself on the K2600

[Postman]

I've been busy lately trying to get my K2600 to work with Live. I'm coming to the conclusion that the K2600 is a great master controller and sound module, but it's not so hot when it tries to do both at the same time (mostly because MIDI transmission and sound generation for a given setup zone are inextricably linked).

 

One thing I'm seeing that is causing me some problems is that the KDFX mode resets itself to Auto from Setup on occasion. I want it to be Setup so that I can preview sounds in Program mode while the sequence is playing in Live. I can't figure out what's doing it or predict when it's going to happen. It can be impressive (read: ear splitting) when it does. Are there times when the operating system should be doing this or is it a bug?

[Mike Martin]

One thing I'm seeing that is causing me some problems is that the KDFX mode resets itself to Auto from Setup on occasion.

If I'm correct this can really only happen when loading "everything" or "master" files. Check some of the files you're loading.

 

Instead of using live from Setup Mode...edit your "Control Setup" and set it up the way you'd like. The "Control Setup" determines the way that the controllers function while in Program Mode. You can also force KDFX to lock to a particular MIDI channel rather than the "auto" setting that changes as you scroll through programs on different MIDI channels.

 

Good luck

[Postman]

Thanks for replying, Mike.

 

Let me see if I can explain my problem better. Imagine a three device system: a midi controller, Live, and a K2600. With this system it should be possible to call up a set of programs for a given tune on the K2600, drive some of them from Live, and play one of them using the controller while Live is running. Additionally, the K2600 should be able to bring up a different, customized Studio for every tune. By my reckoning this can be done three ways:

 

1) Create a setup and specify the Studio in the Setup's KDFX page. This allows for overriding the KDFX input for the program's contained in the Setup's zones for every tune without modifying the programs themselves.

 

2) Create a Song and a custom program for the KDFX Channel. To override the KDFX input for the other Programs, though, you'd have to go to the Channels page. This would have to be done manually every time a new tune was loaded (or you'd need to come up with standard channel assignments) if you didn't want to clone programs for every tune (which I don't).

 

3) Use program mode to set each channel's program, and switch the KDFX Mode to Master. While Live could be used to send program changes to the K2600, the Studio would have to be set manually per tune, and you'd still have to use the Channels page to override the programs' KDFX input settings (or clone programs for every tune).

 

Option 1 seems the most convenient to me, and would work fine if I were using a midi controller all the time, but I'm not. I want to use the K2600's keyboard from time to time. The problem is that if you play a Setup with multiple zones and the zones are set to Midi+Local (or just Local), all the programs that are in zones that are mapped to the keys you're playing will sound. If you set the zones to Midi (only) and use Live as a midi router (passing though only the channels you want to play) that works fine except for one thing: Setup Mode uses program changes to load programs into its zones. This means when you load a Setup into the K2600, all the channels need to be set to 'IN' in Live (or be in record and 'AUTO') or the K2600 won't ever get its own program changes. If you do that and leave the channels set that way, playing the keyboard plays all the sounds in the zones. Naturally, you can set all channels to 'IN' in Live and then reset them to 'AUTO' (except for the one you want to play manually) after loading the Setup, but that's hardly fast nor convenient in a live performance situation.

 

My solution was to set KDFX Mode to Setup, set the Setup zones to 'Local+Midi'(which takes care of the program change issue) and switch to Program Mode when I wanted to play one of the channels from the keyboard. This actually works pretty well (except for the fact that the K2600 uses the program's KDFX input rather than the corresponding Setup zone's override, so I still use the channel page occasionaly). My problem is that every once and a while for God knows what reason the KDFX Mode resets to 'Auto'. Some of the programs on my K2600 rely on pretty strong gain boost, thus the ear splitting I mentioned in my first email.

 

I hope that all made sense. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.

[Mark Peters]

Postman:

 

I don't have an answer for your KDFX mode change, but I have been trying to wrap my head around what you are trying to do.

 

First off, are you just using the K2600 to control your patch changes, or are you trying to make this happen via Live and/or the midi controller as well? Also, how many midi channels are you using at any given time?

[Postman]

Originally posted by Mark Peters:

Postman:

 

I don't have an answer for your KDFX mode change, but I have been trying to wrap my head around what you are trying to do.

 

First off, are you just using the K2600 to control your patch changes, or are you trying to make this happen via Live and/or the midi controller as well? Also, how many midi channels are you using at any given time?

I'm trying to figure out the best way to perform live with Live and the K2600. Live itself gives DJs great power to munge the music in real time, and I'm learning (slowly) some of those techniques. But at heart, I'm a player, and the thought of not only messing with the mix but playing along to Live appeals to me. Sorta like midi karaoke. My arrangements are typically drums, bass, rhythm of some sort, lead and vocals but the latter two I'd like to do live, so I'm not running out of channels. I don't mind loading files in Live and then manually loading a setup on the K2600, but I don't want to set either system up track by track. It's too slow.

 

The other thing I'd like to do is use KDFX. Each song would likely use its own studio, and I can't guarantee that the programs would be able to use the KDFX inputs they're programmed with. Rather than create a clone of each program for each song (I tend to use a given program in more than one song), I'd like to simply override their KDFX inputs.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read these long posts.

[Mark Peters]

Regarding the KDFX mode change, my gut feeling is that there could be a flood of MIDI messages caused by Live sending, say Program Change messages to K2600, which then sends MIDI back to Live, which then responds etc. I don't work with Live, but I've seen this kind of effect with other software and very strange things can happen.

 

I use a K2500R+KDFX rack unit, Roland XV-5080 (rack) and an Alesis QS8 as controller to do much the same as you are looking to do. The Setups are great for one-touch selection of the Kurz programs and effects. In my case, the I use the K2500R sequencer for the song.

 

A couple of things that I would try:

 

1. Is the MIDI out from the K2600 connected to Live? Is this necessary (e.g. you only play Kurz sounds via the keyboard)?

 

2. Is Live sending out Program changes when you load a song? Can this be turned off? You don't want Live and K2600 fighting for who is in control.

 

3. On the K2600 MIDI/Recv page, you want LocalKbdCh off.

 

4. You might want to use an empty program for the first zone of the Setup, as this is the channel through which you can send KDFX midi commands.

 

5. The K2600 Setup can do the Program Changes for up to 8 midi channels. That actually leaves the other 8 unscathed. It might be possible for Live to manipulate these other channels, leaving the actual zone channels for you keyboard use.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Postman]

Originally posted by Mark Peters:

Regarding the KDFX mode change, my gut feeling is that there could be a flood of MIDI messages caused by Live sending, say Program Change messages to K2600, which then sends MIDI back to Live, which then responds etc. I don't work with Live, but I've seen this kind of effect with other software and very strange things can happen.

That could happen if I left the K2600 zones in Local+MIDI and had Live act as a midi thru device. Yeah, I'm not sure, but it might get into a program change loop if the K2600 in setup mode passes program changes from its in port thru..ahem.. through to its out port. I don't think it does, but it might. Anyway, I have the zones set to MIDI and in setup mode, the K2600 relies on program changes (surprisingly) to load programs into its zones. If set to MIDI, the K2600 sound engine doesn't get the program changes directly.

I use a K2500R+KDFX rack unit, Roland XV-5080 (rack) and an Alesis QS8 as controller to do much the same as you are looking to do. The Setups are great for one-touch selection of the Kurz programs and effects. In my case, the I use the K2500R sequencer for the song.

And that would work for me, too. After giving (even) more thought to this, my problem boils down to this: on K2600 there is no way to specify which channel the keyboard (the controller) is using as distinct from the sound engine in setup mode. For example, if the setup has five zones (each encompassing the whole keyboard) assigned to channels one through five, I can't set it up so that external device drives channels one through four and the keyboard drives channel five. Muting a particular zone stops the keyboard from driving it, but it also stops the sound engine from responding to other devices. Program mode allows this, but I need to use setup mode so I can override the KDFX input settings for the programs I'm using.

 

A couple of things that I would try:

 

1. Is the MIDI out from the K2600 connected to Live? Is this necessary (e.g. you only play Kurz sounds via the keyboard)?

Yes, the K2600 is my favorite keyboard, and I like using it to record.

 

2. Is Live sending out Program changes when you load a song? Can this be turned off? You don't want Live and K2600 fighting for who is in control.

Live has the ability to send program changes when clips are launched, but it doesn't have to, and, really, I'd rather not have to set it up.

 

3. On the K2600 MIDI/Recv page, you want LocalKbdCh off.

Yes, there's really not much use for it on the keyboard versions of the K-series. I never use it.

 

4. You might want to use an empty program for the first zone of the Setup, as this is the channel through which you can send KDFX midi commands.

Yes, that's a good idea. Thank you.

 

5. The K2600 Setup can do the Program Changes for up to 8 midi channels. That actually leaves the other 8 unscathed. It might be possible for Live to manipulate these other channels, leaving the actual zone channels for you keyboard use.

I don't think the keyboard can drive any midi channels not associated with a zone (in setup mode).

Just some thoughts.

Much obliged.

[K K]

You may also check with the fellows on this other site.

[Mark Peters]

Originally posted by Postman:

After giving (even) more thought to this, my problem boils down to this: on K2600 there is no way to specify which channel the keyboard (the controller) is using as distinct from the sound engine in setup mode. For example, if the setup has five zones (each encompassing the whole keyboard) assigned to channels one through five, I can't set it up so that external device drives channels one through four and the keyboard drives channel five. Muting a particular zone stops the keyboard from driving it, but it also stops the sound engine from responding to other devices. Program mode allows this, but I need to use setup mode so I can override the KDFX input settings for the programs I'm using.

If I can extrapolate correctly from my K2500R, I believe that any MIDI channels that are not part of a zone will essentially behave like you were in Program mode, even when you are actually in Setup mode. Because they are not part of the zone, the K2600 controller will have no affect, but external MIDI can still drive them. And since there can be only one active Effect, this may be what you are after (except that the Kurz won't be able to load the non-zone programs for you). I suppose you could even associate a Song with each Setup and use this to load the non-zone channels.

 

If you don't manage to progress on this any further, definitely try over at Sonikmatter. The people there really know the ins and outs of the Kurz.