thoughts over action

[zephonic]

I've been watching many of you go on about digital piano actions, and it strikes me as funny that everyone seems to agree that none of them are like the "real" thing.

 

Fact is, that no two acoustic pianos have the same action, you can play two Yamaha's (who are arguably the most consistent because of their automated manufacturing processes) from the same year and find that they do not respond the same way.

A Bechstein Grand's action is nowhere near as heavy as a Steinway's, and some classical pianists prefer it that way.

In short, you can not tell me that there's any such thing as a "benchmark" acoustic piano action, with all the variety out there.

 

So what anybody expects any digital piano to emulate... I see a market for a small digital piano manufacturer, who builds them on request and to customer's spec. Every single unit will be unique, and over time some of these models will become sought-after vintage items, famed for their particularly musical sound and intuitively responsive action. Collectors will pay mega-bucks to own one of these, while aspiring owners will argue in forums that the 110 Volt model made in the year 2011 sounds way better than the 220 Volt model from 2039...

Of course, purists can only but salivate over the battery-powered model especially made for Gregor Krozniak's African Tour.

[phatmann]

Yes, piano actions differ greatly, but they all feel like the "real thing". If someone could make a digital piano that felt just like a Bechstein, I doubt anyone would complain that it did not feel like a Steinway!

 

Okay, they might, but I can only dream about a time when the comparisons have reached that level :-)

 

If the whole fluid-based approach to actions takes off, it might be possible to adjust the pressure via a knob, thus simulating different acoustic pianos.

[Carl Lumma]

The differences between pianos has much less to do with brand and much more to do with regulation.

 

The difference between any MIDI instrument and any piano in good regulation is much greater than that between pianos in good regulation.

 

The piano is probably the most expressive keyboard instrument to date, but it is not the only one worth emulating. A MIDI instrument that played as expressively as a real Hammond, EP, or Clavinet would be most welcomed by this player.

 

Groundbreaking work on how to make an action feel like a piano was done by Brent Gillespie...

 

http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~brentg/

 

Unfortunately this work has been ignored by the keyboard industry.

 

-Carl

[Prague]

I doubt people will pay for it in any appreciable numbers. Free downloads and cheap controllers are the market these days.

[yabbadabbadoo]

I don't see it as any funnier than most people agreeing they don't sound like the real thing either.

 

I'd expect most digital piano manufs to be emulating each other and making what they know will sell moreso than they'd feel a need to innovate towards some lofty piano ideal.

 

Yamaha for e.g probably said "This year I bet we could add 20 to the model number and sell them" and someone said "What about people on low budgets?" "We'll add 10" and that'll probably be enough for now for models in that price range. The vast majority of forums I see with "digital or acoustic?" for example rarely mention any other make because everyone replies with "I've got a yamaha clav or p-xxx"

 

Each group of people looking for one has their own ideas about what a digital piano should have on it, and the results are a range of models "portable, furniture, professional, cheap" as well as each model trying to fit into some sort of middle ground, lots of sounds useless for the group that wants "a piano and nothing else, just a piano" whereas another group are raving or moaning about the rhodes sound on a particular model, others about the weight, others about the action, others about the sound etc etc.

 

Then a few niche models that aim for specifics [like Grandtouch having a real action for e.g]

 

But the idea of someone creating a digital as close as you could today in all aspects isn't something you're going to sell, because although that looks like what the idea should be, all but a small group would reject it on different aspects - along the same lines [but for different reasons] that people make pianos that are exactly like pianos and folk are buying digitals.

[Carl Lumma]

Originally posted by Prague:

I doubt people will pay for it in any appreciable numbers. Free downloads and cheap controllers are the market these days.

Mass production tends to reduce the cost difference between designs.

 

-Carl

[yabbadabbadoo]

Originally posted by Carl Lumma:

Mass production tends to reduce the cost difference between designs.

That's only true up to a point. The price you see on £2k digital pianos and £2k+ acoustics with real actions is because of mass production.

 

In the latter case that's been since the early 1900s. Real piano actions are already cheap and widely available today.

 

The sound is easier in that respect, that gets cheaper. ram / rom and processing power is probably already over-charged for in some digital pianos and without a doubt anything that approaches a real piano using computing power will mass produce to peanuts and, if need be, reduce to the size and weight of Gary Glitter's morality. At which point a real piano action starts to look like it's big and expensive perhaps.

 

[Fat kids playing computer games all day might appear to be illiterate buffoons, they might die in their 30s from heart failure and perhaps one or two will shoot each other. But it ensures faster computers and thus better and cheaper digital pianos. This is the kind of key benefit the Daily Mail et al fail to see when they attack the games industry - Tommorrow's story "How eating Turkey improves the gearbox on the Vauxhall Astra - what Paul McCartney doesn't tell you]

 

Thus, innovative sound, you can stick aspects of in the budget, lightweight and whatever other models and potentially sell shedloads of them.

 

I don't see that happening with our hypothetical action though. Certainly not if phatmann is right in the other thread.

 

It seems clear that the actions are good enough at the price ranges that matter for manuf's to sell them. Otherwise why don't Yamaha just make the CLP-range like the Grantouch and let mass production make it the same price. They seem to make the acoustics and silent acoustics they sell in the UK in china, indonesia, milton keynes and japan if not elsewhere, so they should already avoid a need to design a new action or find people that can manufacture it. We might think weight matters w.r.t stage pianos and thus an action needs to innovate specifically with that in mind, but there's a big market in furniture models where light means "weighs less than a baby elephant" - that uses the same stage-piano action mostly.

 

I'd say that's because they can't make it cheaper and because anyone who really cares will pay a lot more. That's what kawaii hope too.

[phatmann]

Regulation can make a difference in how the action feels, but the make of the piano is still a major factor. For example, a Steinway has a relatively heavy action. You can lighten it up a bit through regulation, but there are limits, due to the materials used, the geometry of the action, etc. There are guides one follows when regulating, and certain adjustments allow a range of settings. But ultimately regulation is about getting the action within the guidelines, and not for "customizing" the feel.

 

Another way of saying this: there can be a large difference between a poorly regulated Steinway and a well regulated Steinway of the same make and model. But there should be little difference between the two models if both are well regulated.

[WastedYears]

Originally posted by yabbadabbadoo:

I don't see it as any funnier than most people agreeing they don't sound like the real thing either.

I feel the same way.....I also think once you get to a certain level, all these arguments are more about ego than anything else.

[kanker.]

Originally posted by yabbadabbadoo:

reduce to the size and weight of Gary Glitter's morality

This has to be the line of the year.

[Carl Lumma]

Originally posted by phatmann:

[QB] Regulation can make a difference in how the action feels, but the make of the piano is still a major factor.

An instrument can be made literally unplayable with regulation. Brand alone tells you almost nothing, as brands change their designs over the years. Brand+model+year is better, but regulation and condition will still overwhelm. And of course if the piano has been restored its brand is now that of the technician who restored it.

 

For example, a Steinway has a relatively heavy action.

I'm not sure what weight you're referring to. For years Steinway used Renner actions, just like the majority of artist-quality brands today (Bose, Mason, Baldwin...). Renner builds actions to spec, but all modern actions are of virtually identical design. Different manufacturers call for different "down weights", but down weight isn't a very good measurement of action feel.

 

There are guides one follows when regulating, and certain adjustments allow a range of settings. But ultimately regulation is about getting the action within the guidelines, and not for "customizing" the feel.

Tell it to David Stanwood!

 

Regulation guidelines are a lowest common denominator for uncrating instruments and getting them onto the sales floor (few shops do even that, these days). About as useful as the food pyramid is for nutrition. Any serious artist has their instrument completely retuned after purchase.

 

If you were fortunate enough to have played a Steinway at Steinway Hall before about the year 2000, you know that they were among the lightest-feeling actions on any piano. This was achieved by the old gaurd of technicians, who have since retired or been forced into retirement, who probably didn't even know the regulation guidelines.

 

there can be a large difference between a poorly regulated Steinway and a well regulated Steinway of the same make and model. But there should be little difference between the two models if both are well regulated.

This is probably true, but almost zero pianos you're likely to encounter are well regulated.

 

-Carl

[Jazz+]

Thank you, Carl. You are right on the mark. Horowitz has his Steinway action set so light that you could almost blow on the keys to make them drop. I love that ultra light action setting on a Steinway.

[zephonic]

I would love to have a digital piano with real ivory keys though...

I live in Kenya and can assure you that elephants are far from extinction...

[Carl Lumma]

I would love to have a digital piano with real ivory keys though...

I live in Kenya and can assure you that elephants are far from extinction...

My 1923 Lester grand has ivories in good condition, and they are far nicer than any synthetic keys I've played. I can't say I approve of harvesting it from elephants, though. These days it shouldn't be too difficult to synthesize a material with similar properties, I should think. Too bad Yamaha got burned on their earlier attempt.

 

-Carl

[zephonic]

...I knew that would ruffle somebody's feathers....:-)

[CyberGene]

Originally posted by zephonic:

I would love to have a digital piano with real ivory keys though...

I live in Kenya and can assure you that elephants are far from extinction...

Imagine aliens who make their drums from our skin. And They can assure you that we are far from extinction.

[zephonic]

Hmm, fancy one of those drums. Let me know when their on sale.

[hichakhok]

"I never choose a piano for a concert....

 

take a piano as one takes life"

 

 

Sviatoslav Richter