frenzy1971 Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Ok, so I picked up my 1959 Hammond M3 today. I locked down the tone generator, just like it says i should. When I got it home I played it for a few minutes- all was working properly. I went to run an errnad. When I got back, I couldn't get it to run. I would hold the start button then turn on the run. When i would hold them both down I got a loud hum, controllable by the expression pedal, and when I hit the keys. When I let go of the start switch.. nothing. I opened her up and looked for broken or missing wires. It had been serviced recently, it's clean inside with oil in all the right places. You can hear the capacitors when holding the start switch. Any ideas why it would do that out of the blue? I'm just sick, got my new toy and can't play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedly Nightshade Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I couldn't tell you off hand... it's always worth wiggling all the tubes in the backand making sure they're seated well. Even if they look right, contacts get dirty and wiggling helps. You can turn it off first and then pull out each tube and put it back in a couple dozen times each- that cleans the contacts. I remember standing on stage with a Hammond that refused to make a noise- I was about losing it, I said "I don't know what to do!" Drummer said, "get a synth?" Just then a friend who knows little about anything leapt up and pushed a tube back into the socket. Voila! we had contact! Everything was OK after that. Congratulations on your M3- that's a very fine instrument indeed. A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM! "There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenzy1971 Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 Cool, I feel better. We did find that one of the tubes apparently burnt out while I was running my errand. That's wierd, but it's true. They were all lighting up before, and one wasn't now. Gonna replace it tomorrow and see if that fixes it. please please please. I'm dying to throw some groove tubes in it and line out it to my Kettner and Hughes Rotosphere, stereo out of that to our PA. Yes! I'm just aching to tear up some uriah heap on this thing. Thanks so much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 It's rare for a tube to "burn out" so that the cathode doesn't glow. I'd worry if the tube involved was the 5U4 rectifier tube. (The biggest one.) If the filament of that tube comes in contact with one of the plates, it produces a dead short across the secondary of the power transformer. M3s didn't come with a fuse or circuit breaker. The transformer can burn up when this happens. The power cord is usually badly cracked and needs to be replaced for safety. Don't pitch out your old tubes. They may be better than the Groove Tubes, even used. And good testing used American ones of these in-demand types sell well on eBay. Retubing the whole thing when there's no problem isn't a good idea. The tubes should be replaced individually when there's a problem IMO. "Preamp" tubes can last a long, long time. You should redo some adjustments on the amp when tubes are replaced. Check the service manual. It sure is a good idea to have spares of all of them on hand, though! (That's the Groove Tubes.) "A cheerful heart is good medicine." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenzy1971 Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 It's one of the small ones, of which there are several identical. We put another in the same seat and it lit and and got hot where as the other didn't. The power cord and everything else looks fantastic. Everything is nice and well oiled, all contacts look solid. It's even super clean inside. It had been serviced 2 weeks prior to my purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Are you sure it's not the starter switch? They can be flakey. I would think the tonewheel generator would try to start up regardless of the preamp tubes. Do you hear the starter motor and generators when you flip the starter switch? Servicing doesn't always mean replacing things that are suspect or intermittent. The problem is Ms don't bring a lot of money so they have to watch how much they put into it, as they might not recoup those costs. When you locked down the tonewheels for moving, you did release them after you moved it, correct? Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenzy1971 Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 I did turn it on for about 5 minutes with it locked down. I've read that it doesn't hurt it to keep locked, it just makes a little noise. Could I have damaged something? When the start switch is held, I can see things moving and spinning on the right hand side of the tone generator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammodel AV Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 OK, for starters on starting a M3/B3/C3/A100, there are no capacitors involved with the starting sequence (caps are on the L100/M100/H100). What you *should* be hearing are the tonewheels spinning. You hold the 'start' switch for a few seconds to get the tonewheels up to syncronous speed. Then you flip up the 'run' switch, immediately releasing the 'start' switch. The way that Hammonds are wired, anytime when you have the run switch on the power to the preamp/amps are on. If the tonewheels are not making it to full run speed (needs oil, I'll bet), then having the run switch on you will always hear a hum. If you don't get the tonewheels up to speed, don't hit the run switch, unless you are hooking up a crystal phono cartridge/turntable to the input on the expression pedal 'doghouse'. Thanks. Brian. Hammond T-582A, Casio WK6600, Behringer D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by frenzy1971: I did turn it on for about 5 minutes with it locked down. I've read that it doesn't hurt it to keep locked, it just makes a little noise. Could I have damaged something? When the start switch is held, I can see things moving and spinning on the right hand side of the tone generator. Does the generator continue to run after you go through the start procedure and release the start switch? If it only runs with the start switch held, then your run motor is not working. Could be a cold solder joint, or a dead run motor. It doesn't hurt to leave the generator locked down. You will just get a little 60 cycle hum acoustically transmitted to the cabinet. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I don't think you could have damaged anything by playing it locked down. It's just better to unlock it if you're not moving it. When you hit the starter switch you should hear the starter motor and also hear another 'motor' sound coming up in pitch, After five second or so, switch the main switch on and release the starter. In my experience, if the starter switch/motor is bad, you shouldn't be hearing any of these sounds. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammodel AV Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Just as reinforcement, the starter motor turns both the tone generator AND the run motor. For the run motor to continue to turn the tone generator, it has to reach A/C sync speed. If the tone generator is not turning due to low oil, neither will the run motor be able to turn. The start motor is at one side of the generator, and the run motor is attached to the other side. Below is a rough diagram: SM tone generator RM ======================= ======================= 0 ======================= 0 ======================= ======================= Hammond T-582A, Casio WK6600, Behringer D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 You do know the proper starting sequence? Hold the START switch for approximately 8 seconds. Keep holding it and flip on the RUN switch. After 4 more seconds, release the START switch. Wait about 30-60 seconds for the tubes to warm up. "A cheerful heart is good medicine." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenzy1971 Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Ricochet: You do know the proper starting sequence? Hold the START switch for approximately 8 seconds. Keep holding it and flip on the RUN switch. After 4 more seconds, release the START switch. Wait about 30-60 seconds for the tubes to warm up. yup, it looks like the culprit is the fact that the organs been sitting for a while not played, but covered. Everything looked well oiled, but the little pan with the sponge over the vibrato scanner didn't seem to have much. I'm gonna oil up the tone generator, and make sure it's doing what it should. Thanks, for all of your great help!! I'll post success / failure later. This is my first hammond or any drawbar ever, so thanks for your Noob tolerance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenzy1971 Posted June 3, 2005 Author Share Posted June 3, 2005 Ok, I took out and put back all the tubes, oiled it and stuck my fingers just a little inside the tone generator by the rod, (with it all turned off), and manually turned the gear there. When I plugged her in, started her up, she sang a sweet song of the Deepest Purple to me. And the she yelled something about Easy Livin. Thanks ya'll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Frenzy, The kindest thing you can do for any old tonewheel Hammond is to turn it on and play it regularly. It's amazing how the key contacts will repair themselves and the generator will turn willingly if the thing is not left to sit. There's no reason that these brilliant bits of design shouldn't last a hundred years. The B-3 in my basement has already made it 50 years no problem. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenzy1971 Posted June 3, 2005 Author Share Posted June 3, 2005 No worries there, I've lusted after one of these since I was 16. I'm 33, and finally in a position to play music again. This instrument will be played daily, I'm in a working band, so it will see tons of use and love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedly Nightshade Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 right on! A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM! "There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammodel AV Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 and my 1936 Hammond Model A, converted by me to an AV with Trek II percussion unit, is still going strong! When I got it, didn't have a single missing tone. I had some on my 1959 A-100, but once I did a bussbar shift, it worked fine. Good luck with the M-3 -- I have always had fun playing them. Brian. Hammond T-582A, Casio WK6600, Behringer D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 That's great, frenzy! Glad it's working! It's amazing how much of the stuff that's wrong with an unused Hammond will fix itself with a good oiling and some use! "A cheerful heart is good medicine." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenzy1971 Posted June 3, 2005 Author Share Posted June 3, 2005 Thanks all, you guys have been so helpful and friendly. I think I'll hang around this place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Soundsmith Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Good idea. Another great place to get good Hammond info is the Hamtech List. These guys service the instrument, and some of them actually used to work for Hammond building them. I apologize for not having the link handy, but I'm on a different computer. But, a note of caution - the cups you see where the oil goes - two vital things: use only Hammond oil, accept NO substitute. and the cups are just funnels, long tubes go to the oiling points in the organ, so the cups will not stay full, and it can damage to organ to overoil it - uisually once every year is enough. Enjoy your instrument. I have an A100 and an A103, and love them. One for the studio and one for the gig. So I know how much fun they are. Dasher - don't ask me about those other reindeer, all I can tell you is Comet's in the sink! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okharpman Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 We have an M3 that my oldest daughter who has a Piano Permance degree in Piano and has been coming out to our house and teaching lessons. She would show the kids the organ and how it worked and let them make sounds on it. Unfortunately, somehow the M3 was left on for over a week, and now it is not working. I hear no sounds when I press the first switch up, and then when I hold the other one up for 10 to 15 seconds, I can hear the sound of the amplifier and the moving sound, but none of the keys will make a sound. We had it making sound once, but as soon as you let the second switch down, the minute sounds went down minutely to neutered. Think the motor is out of one of the motors. I think you are talking about taking the whole back cover off to get to the rotars that make the music. okharpman If you have one, then play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 OK. The cover over the tone generator is the moulded Masonite thing over the top half of the back. Most M3s have the bottom half open so you can see the amp. The easy way to take it off is to just take the screws off on the bottom edge. You may have to loosen the top screws a little, but the holes they go through are elongated so you can just lift the cover up a bit and slide it off over the screws without removing them. Are you sure the thing's been oiled annually? Yes, Hammond oil is the recommended stuff, but in a pinch you can use lots of other light oils, including sewing machine oil, which is a medium grade "spindle oil," lighter than car motor oil. Put in about enough to fill each "cup" once. Don't try to keep them full, they're funnels and it runs down. If the bearings ran dry during that long run, it might be hard to get it started again without oiling. The "moving sound" comes from the start and run motors spinning the main shaft, gears and tone wheels in the tone generator. (The stuff that has to be kept oiled.) If you can hear it spin up when the Start switch is held for a few seconds, the Start switch and Start motor are working. If you then switch on the Run switch and let go of the Start switch, and you continue hearing a faint whirring noise inside that doesn't spin down and stop, the Run motor is working fine. If they're both working, you can pretty much assume that the tone generator's OK. The problem's in the amp. (So far, you really haven't needed to take that back cover off.) The M3 has a fairly basic tube amp, and if you're not familiar with working on things like that and don't have a Hammond tech nearby, most anybody who's familiar with working on tube guitar amps, hi-fis, radios and TVs could figure it out easily with the schematic from Captain Foldback's website. If you're lucky, it might just need a tube, which is a plugin job. The 5U4 rectifier tube, the biggest one, is the most likely to go, and the most likely to make everything go silent. (Any shop that sells electric guitars will have a 5U4 in stock.) You should see a dull orange glow from the ends of the filaments inside the two gray or black metal "plates" inside the tube. If the "plates" glow red or there's blue glow inside that tube, turn the power off immediately! If anything besides the tubes gets hot to the touch (the three largest tubes will get really hot!), turn it off immediately. The M3 doesn't have any fuse or circuit breaker protection. Lots of electronic stuff back then didn't. Tubes should have a silvery looking, or often a dark brownish, sort of "rainbowy" looking metallic film deposit on the inside of the glass, called the "getter." That's barium metal, deposited on the glass from a pellet that's heated when the air's pumped out of the tube in manufacture. It absorbs ("gets") stray air molecules in the tube, and it doesn't last forever, due to air molecules escaping from the metal structures inside the tube and leaking in around the wires passing through the glass at the base of the tube. If the getter spot is gone, usually replaced by a hazy white dusting of barium oxide and nitride, the tube's "gone to air" and won't work. (All the vacuum leaked out.) Replace it. Tubes' cathodes gradually lose their ability to emit sufficient electrons in normal use, and the rectifier's the first to wear out. The power cords in old Hammonds are bad about cracking off their insulation, and can short out. Take a look at it. "A cheerful heart is good medicine." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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