Gigging Ac. Piano

[part1sts]

Hasn't anybody thought about making a really light acoustic piano. Maybe if they used lighter materials and made it very compact. Coudn't they pull of a 88 key acoustic that weighed less than a 100 lbs.

[Dave Horne]

Who's going to go first ....?

[wmp]

Pipe dream. A nice one, though.

[Trill]

The only brand I ever played that fit that decription was Mattel of Fisher Price they only had about 13 keys though ,It would be nice though

[Carlito]

Since the strings weight and tension which require an also heavy and strong metal harp to support them are what makes the piano so heavy, they could start with nylon strings.I wonder if the first octave would sound at all.

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Who's going to go first ....?

Sometimes it's just not worth it, Dave... as tempting as it is.

 

Much like the idea of mic'ing an acoustic piano with a single SM57.

 

Cheers,

SG

[keyman_sam]

The Doepfer has an action that is the closest to the original piano AFAIK.

 

But it costs like 3 grand!!

[JeffLearman]

The Helpinstill/Aeolean Melodipro: a great little portable upright, made back in the 70's. I knew a woman who played great jazz/fusion piano and had a CP70 (same kind I owned & loved for decades). But it sounded terrible for her style -- too crashy and too much sustain, and her cluster-f**k chords and subtle runs just came out as crash/mush.

 

She traded it in on the Helpinstill, which had 3 strings per note and a wood soundboard, rather than 2 and no soundboard in the Yamaha. Sounded lovely! Sure, upright sound, but much more warm and natural, with a nice sharp attack so you could hear each note in her complex fast runs, rather than a musical sustained smear.

 

It had a 64 key board, and was an "easy carry" for 2 men, back in the days when the B3 was pretty much the limit for portability. I would have hated it, but largely due to limitations in my own style like a heavy left hand and overuse of sustain (more so then than now, fortunately). Note that the one I'm talking about was wood, not the more roadworthy Roadmaster 64

 

They made a portable grand , too, but the one I played was horrible, IMHO.

[burningbusch]

I had a CP70 in the late 70s. Even then I never throught it sounded very good. It sounds as much like a piano and as a banjo sounds like a guitar. The CP70 was in two pieces: top section 150lbs; bottom section 136lbs--obviously even heavier in the requisite Anvil cases.

 

I also picked up when of those mini uprights. I didn't gig with it, just had it in my apartment. It could have been the Aeolean. I paid $300-$400 for it used. I always thought the Helpinstill was way over priced ($3000-$4000)as they were just one of those mini uprights with pickups.

 

Bottomline, no you can't make an acoustic piano that weighs less than 100lbs that would sound decent. The strings need to be a certain length. The string tension on even a small grand is >30,000 lbs--requires substantial harp. The action is vastly more sophisticated (read: more parts, heavier) than a digital piano. You need a soundboard.

 

Busch.

[humannoyed]

Using modern composite materials instead of wood a piano could definitely be made lighter, but I couldn't see it ever being under 100 lb. - at least not a one piece instrument

 

I would love to see Yamaha re-introduce the 2 piece electric grand, but actually put a soundboard in it.

 

a specially designed high quality contact pick-up system would need to be installed on the soundboard to give it a very natural piano sound as opposed to the metallic sound of the electromagnetic pick-ups on the CP70.

 

I am very curious of opinions as to whether or not this would be a successful product?

...I'm thinking the average gigging keyboardist would still be using digital instruments for mobility reasons but... is there an untapped clientele for real portable grands and who would that be?

 

Day

[Dave Horne]

A I always say, the Yamaha GranTouch has the best of both worlds - a real grand action with a first rate sample. I practice (and perform) on a GranTouch and I _never_ tire of its sound. I believe the weight is about 100kg which would be about 220 lbs.

 

Why try and reinvent the wheel?

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by part1sts:

Hasn't anybody thought about making a really light acoustic piano. Maybe if they used lighter materials and made it very compact. Coudn't they pull of a 88 key acoustic that weighed less than a 100 lbs.

What about an electro-mechanical piano? That's semi-acoustic. A modern Rhodes. I mentioned this in another thread somewhere, but I have a vision of a new kind of rhodes which incorporates something like guitar strings. Think about it: bass guitars and guitars cover a pretty wide span of octaves, using relatively low-tension, short strings. That could probably be done inside a keyboard instrument, and made using lightweight materials. The only other problem to solve is how to strike the keys. Hammer or plucking mechanism? I like plucking mechanism for this fantasy instrument. I know plucking has already been done in the clavinet, but I envision this instrument sounding more guitar-like, more rhodes-like than the clav, and having longer, more pleasant sounding sustain tone, so you could use it like a guitar or piano. I name this instrument the Rhotar.

 

Why would anyone want to use this instead of a digital, you ask? Because it would be a real, mechanical, expressive instrument. Given the unusual design concept, it would probably have a unique sound.

[Dave Horne]

Floyd, as I was reading your post I had a slightly unrelated image of a zither, one with midi. I think the market's wide open.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Floyd, as I was reading your post I had a slightly unrelated image of a zither, one with midi. I think the market's wide open.

Hi, Dave. Zithers are similar to what I have in mind, but the instrument I'm imagining has a weighted piano keyboard. How the key-strike energy gets transferred to the string is an open question for me, it could be traditional hammers, or some new kind of plucking mechanism.

 

Zithers have a hollow, string-y sound that is not pleasant for playing complex jazz-like chords on, as far as I can remember. There's probably too many harmonics in the sound. You need a more fundamental tone, like Rhodes. How is it that guitars, electric jazz guitars in particular, have such a pleasant, fundamental sound that lends itself to complex chords? That's the sound I'm thinking of, somewhere between Rhodes and a Gibson hollow-body jazz guitar, or even a solid-body, Fender Strat let's say.

[JeffLearman]

Frankly, digital pianos are quite good and getting better all the time.

 

A good sounding piano is not easy to make. A very light instrument won't sound nearly as close to a big Steinway as digitals do. (It might sound more like a tinny upright than digitals do.)

 

I think the best product would be a more severe compromise than digitals are, and the market for it would be very small. As an investor I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole.

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

I like plucking mechanism for this fantasy instrument.

 

 

Given the unusual design concept, it would probably have a unique sound.

Yep, it would sound an awful lot like a harpsichord .

 

Cheers,

SG

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Sven Golly:

Yep, it would sound an awful lot like a harpsichord .

 

Cheers,

SG

I don't think so. Harpsichords have a light, stringy sound. They use long strings with a resonating soundboard. The instrument I'm describing uses shorter strings, and pickups. The material of the strings could be more solid and basic, similar to electric guitar strings, giving them more fundamental, and less harmonics.

 

Think of Rhodes, and electric guitar. Now combine elements from both.

[fisheye]

Originally posted by Sven Golly:

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Who's going to go first ....?

Sometimes it's just not worth it, Dave... as tempting as it is.

 

Much like the idea of mic'ing an acoustic piano with a single SM57.

 

Cheers,

SG

Mic'ing an acoustic piano with a single sm57 still gives a better playing experience than a digital.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by fisheye:

Originally posted by Sven Golly:

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Who's going to go first ....?

Sometimes it's just not worth it, Dave... as tempting as it is.

 

Much like the idea of mic'ing an acoustic piano with a single SM57.

 

Cheers,

SG

Mic'ing an acoustic piano with a single sm57 still gives a better playing experience than a digital.

Far, far better! Which goes to show how much all digital pianos really, truly suck.

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by fisheye:

Mic'ing an acoustic piano with a single sm57 still gives a better playing experience than a digital.

For the player, perhaps...

[Jazz+]

Didn't Yamaha already make what you are all talking about: CP-80

http://www.gigapolis.com/silkroad/kitaro/equipment/yamaha_cp80.jpg

 

http://www.cathedralstone.net/Pics/CP70B4.jpg

[Sven Golly]

The only thing that weighed less than 100 lbs on a CP80 was the sustain pedal.

 

Cheers,

SG

[humannoyed]

Originally posted by learjeff:

Frankly, digital pianos are quite good and getting better all the time.

 

A good sounding piano is not easy to make. A very light instrument won't sound nearly as close to a big Steinway as digitals do. (It might sound more like a tinny upright than digitals do.)

 

I think the best product would be a more severe compromise than digitals are, and the market for it would be very small. As an investor I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole.

Yes, digitals are getting better all the time and (I believe) will ultimately kill the production all all cheaply made uprights and grands, which face it, is simply the waste of a perfectly good tree

 

BUT... the best digital is still a very long way away from a fine grand. Look at the responses in other threads around here. If given the choice most players still prefer to play the real thing if it is a decent playable instrument that's in tune.

 

Depending of course on how well it is engineerered, I think a real grand piano that comes in two pieces like the CP70/80, BUT one that HAS a soundboard (and a longer bass string length) has better chance of sounding closer to that fine Steinway than any digital will ever be able to. The question is...will it be affordable.

 

I am sure that at some point using lightweight materials for certain things could start to compromise the tone, but I'll bet much of the weight in a piano's case, lid... possibly plate could be reduced with alternative materials without a noticeable difference than the tone of a grand of traditional construction.

 

Yes, there would be a limited market, but I think every instrument rental company would want one, as would colleges or anyone that has outdoor concerts.

 

Day

[StillFightingIt]

Thought I'd revive this thread.

 

Perhaps Carbon-Fibre casing would make this new portable piano a lot lighter. Carbon-Fibre is an extremely light and extremely strong and durable material. That surely would reduce the weight drastically, enough to add a soundboard and keep it the same weight.

 

Change the bass notes to 2 strings instead of the single and change the rest to 3 strings from 2.

 

I'm guessing the weight would be similar to the CP70/80 but result in a much truer grand piano sound. The general consensus is most of us would prefer to play an instrument with real strings and action over a keyboard. I'm surprised manufacturers aren't trying to cater for this.

[ITGITC]

You're kidding, right?

 

I'm not sure, but I'm thinkin' that IVORY plus a decent controller make a pretty nice pair.

 

Put that up against yer CP80 sportin' the new and improved "Carbon-Fibre casing".

 

Not only does Ivory + controller weigh a lot less, but once you amplify the CP80 wannabee, it'll probably STILL sound a lot like the CP80 - NOT a Steinway.

 

Of course, I could be wrong.

[Sven Golly]

Still:

 

The 'truth' as I see it is this. Physics and Acoustics notwithstanding (in other words, regardless of whether your idea would sound anything like a piano), the piano manufacturers are marketing to two distinct groups: home users who are looking for what is, ostensibly, a piece of furniture as much as it is an instrument; and institutions, such as concert halls and universities. Neither one of these groups is going to accept a departure from the traditional; what do they care about weight? They hire someone to move them, and once they're in place, that's it.

 

The professional market that is currently catered to by digital pianos wouldn't bear a large, unweildy piano when digital replicas that are 'good enough for the gig' abound. There will be a miniscule segment of the market for whom such an instrument would be a viable option, but my guess would be that they wouldn't represent a sufficiently large market to ensure ROI for a manufacturer to do on a larger scale. Perhaps a boutique mfg would craft a small number of them, but the cost per instrument would be prohibitively high.

 

Perhaps if economics were different, and society treated us musicians as artists to be revered and showered with money, such an instrument would find its way to the mainstream... alas, such is not the case.

 

Cheers,

SG

[StillFightingIt]

To Gas,

I'm not kidding. Personally I'd prefer to play an instrument with real strings etc. ANY DAY over a digital piano, regardless of whether it's ivory or whatever it is... I've yet to play a digital piano/controller or whatever that actually feels like playing a real piano.

 

To Sven,

I totally see your point regarding the marketing and I suppose I didn't give my comment enough thought in regards to catering for this niche. I suppose big enough names use real pianos, others use digitals.

 

In my (originals) band, I'm the lead vocalist from behind a grand piano (in the venues that have one, if not I use a digital). I think there's definately a visual aspect for audiences, I don't think it looks anywhere near as good playing a digital as a real piano (excluding Yamaha Grantouch and the like).

 

I don't know about outside Australia, but I see a lot of Australia's top artists sitting behind CP80s for live performances (not recordings), (eg. Delta Goodrem, Silverchair {Daniel Johns}, Missy Higgins, {not Australian} Daniel Powter, Evermore) so, does anyone care to speculate on why wealthy artists would be playing on a electric piano left over from the 80s if digital pianos do as good a job?

[Sven Golly]

Originally posted by StillFightingIt:

In my (originals) band, I'm the lead vocalist from behind a grand piano (in the venues that have one, if not I use a digital). I think there's definately a visual aspect for audiences, I don't think it looks anywhere near as good playing a digital as a real piano (excluding Yamaha Grantouch and the like).

Absolutely true, which is why a large number of touring musicians (including Paul McCartney a few years back) use an empty shell with an 88-key digital piano (or Kurzweil PC2X, in Sir Paul's case) to resemble a real piano. Sir Elton John does the same thing; white piano 'shell', and he triggers, among other things, a Roland MKS-20 piano module.

 

(a link to a previous discussion here about piano shells: clonk here )

 

On the flip side, Jonathan Cain (Journey) plays a real Yamaha grand piano, affectionately dubbed "The Whale", and his keyboard tech tunes it before every show. However, he's also got a 'baby brother' that is a red piano shell with a controller in it, for those gigs that don't support using the real thing (or if there's not enough time between one show and the next to get the piano there in time). Then they sub out the stand-in (a.k.a. "Shamu" ... something about marine mammals with Mr. Cain ).

 

If your touring budget is big enough to support hauling around a real grand piano, both in terms of truck space and manpower, then more power to you. I'd love to be in that situation, as I'm sure would any pianist. However, big names are choosing to go digital... there's got to be something to it.

 

I don't know about outside Australia, but I see a lot of Australia's top artists sitting behind CP80s for live performances (not recordings), (eg. Delta Goodrem, Silverchair {Daniel Johns}, Missy Higgins, {not Australian} Daniel Powter, Evermore) so, does anyone care to speculate on why wealthy artists would be playing on a electric piano left over from the 80s if digital pianos do as good a job?

There is a big trend towards 'old school' instruments recently (for example, the keyboard player from Keane uses a CP70); the CP's definitely have a sound and character all their own, and some artists really enjoy that... but not because they think it sounds like a real grand piano, by ANY means. The trademark sound of the CP70 can be found on a bunch of albums these days, hence their use.

 

I just pray to God that nobody decides the RMI 'piano' sound needs to be revisited...

 

For the record, I wish that I could play on a real grand piano on every gig... I'm just hypothesizing here as to why that isn't the case.

 

Cheers,

SG

[StillFightingIt]

Hey Sven,

thanks for your comments.

You're a top guy

[Tusker]

I used to play a CP80, and the sound stil intrigues me when I hear it. Required an army to get it from place to place though.

 

I once recorded a grand with an SM58 and submitted it to a compilation CD, somewhere. Oh wait, it was here.

 

I do think there is something about the tactile feedback that makes it a pleasant experience to play a rhodes/cp80. So you might think there is a need for a strung stage keyboard...

 

Sadly, I don't think it would happen. But I think there is the possibility of modeled pianos and maybe some kind of forcefeedback system that could be developed in a lightweight manner.

 

Jerry