NAMM Observations

[MikeT156]

Busch:

 

It could be that Korg has developed a completely new ROM set that is 3 to 10 times larger than the current competition. Isn't the sample frequency the same as the "competition" is putting out? They're trying to remain compatible with the current CD techology. Even if they went to a higher frequency sampling, I don't know what they can achieve by say doubling the current sample frequencies, which in effect, would just provide higher frequencies that can't be pressed onto CD's or heard by the human ear. We've probably reached the usable limits of sampler technology. Physical Modeling might be an avenue to explore to more accurately model acoustic instruments.

 

Full color display-It may belong in a studio, I don't know how it would work on the road. Its nice that the screen is larger than what else is out there, color is overkill as far as I can see. I've done sequencing on small screens, its workable and affordable. Larger would be nicer. I thought the MOTIF ES's screen was to small when I looked at it on the web, and thought I'd just have to use the PC screen editor when I got it. Haven't had to so far. No doubt the color screen is a nice luxury.

 

The processing power may prove to be enough, I really don't know. It depends on how much demand you put on it.

 

The "open architecture" is certainly a potential advantage. Provided enough people develop useful things for it, and the Oasys doesn't belly flop because it doesn't sell enough. The concept is great, I'd be hard pressed to invest that much in vaporware. Korg's got to start somewhere with it.

 

One of the reasons I bought the Motif ES8 was for a common interface so I could have my B&B sounds, performances, sampler, and sequencer on the same machine. I can add a breath controller, use smartmedia cards for storage, or get an USB hard drive if I want, or forgo the expensive if I don't need it.

 

I'm not anti Korg or ever had the intention of being a Korg basher. I don't see the Oasys in my future because I really don't need what it does. Busch my friend, if you have a need for it, and the bucks, your musical requirements are different than mine, as well as your bank account. Go for it.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike T.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by MikeT156:

Busch:

 

It could be that Korg has developed a completely new ROM set that is 3 to 10 times larger than the current competition. Isn't the sample frequency the same as the "competition" is putting out? They're trying to remain compatible with the current CD techology. Even if they went to a higher frequency sampling, I don't know what they can achieve by say doubling the current sample frequencies, which in effect, would just provide higher frequencies that can't be pressed onto CD's or heard by the human ear. We've probably reached the usable limits of sampler technology. Physical Modeling might be an avenue to explore to more accurately model acoustic instruments.

 

Mike T.

Sample frequency and bit size are not the issue. The whole reason disk streaming is such a big deal is sound designers no longer have to compromise their instruments in order to fit it into x amount of ROM. They can sample each and every note, wait much longer before they loop or not loop at all, sample at more velocities. From what I've read about the OASYS the idea is not to provide gobs of new sounds (ala Triton Extreme) but to rather make them more detailed and with less compromises. Whether they've inched sound quality forward or made a significant leap has yet to be determined (for me anyway).

 

I might have been too flipant in the previous post. I will buy it if it inspires and sounds great. My studio is extremely small. I can only fit a few keyboards in it. Quality over quantity in my case.

 

Busch.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by MikeT156:

A note to db:

 

Quote:

=====================================

One of the things I mentioned (and Mike Martin also brought up) was that some people seem to be forming some pretty hard and fast opinions much more these days without actually trying the piece, though.

 

Between manufacturer web sites, mp3s and user forums, there's no doubt that the internet makes this an easier proposition than it was in the past; however, there's still no substitute for sitting down at an instrument and seeing if it cranks yer prop.

=======================================

 

Dave, something I want you to consider is that I live in a rural area in central PA. I have to depend upon the Internet to get a feel for what's available on manf. web sites to give a listen to their products, read forums and compare notes with other players.

Understood.

 

Obviously, there are going to be instances where people do not have the wherewithal to try everything they want. I was more reflecting on a general trend, not addressing a specific individual.

 

In your situation, the internet is obviously going to play a vital part in your purchasing decisions. I'm guessing that's not the case with everyone.

 

Thanks,

 

dB

[jerrythek]

Hi Mike:

 

I can certainly empathize with the hassle of trying to gather info on a product when you're not near a store to try it out for yourself.

 

You've thrown so much out here now that's it's hard to even know what to answer, coupled with the fact that you already seem certain that the OASYS is not for you. Fair enough. So why bother to try to "sell you" on it?

 

:-)

 

Seriously, I want to try to answer some of your questions/comments - you deserve that.

 

You mention again "the same system" when referring to the three different sound-producing engines, so I wonder if you're still missing my earlier points...there are three different sound engines, each utilizing different forms of sound making, both digital synthesis and two forms of modeling.

 

The product absolutely needs a hard drive, regardless of whether you want to do audio recording, so you're not going to lose that to save money. It would be like buying a computer without a hard drive because you got a good deal. Cheaper? Yes, but non-functional.

 

And the 511 MB large memory piano we ship as a bonus resides there, as would any of your samples, or the expansion sample libraries we will produce, or AKAI libraries or other sound collections you want to use. The system boots off the hard drive, it's a great place to save/back-up your sounds/songs etc. so it is an important and integral element of the system.

 

CD drives are important for loading sampled sounds, sampling from audio CD libraries, it's how we will provide OS updates and new EXi/EXf/EXs libraries etc. Plus it's a very affordable form of data-archiving. Not just for burning audio CD's from the MIDI/audio recording that you don't plan to do. Plus a CD drive isn't all that costly, especially compared to the benefits it offers.

 

I'm not going to cost out each piece of hardware, but if you don't think color enhances an interface, especially when done with some taste and subtlety then I have no rebuttal - different strokes for different folks...

 

Our ROM has always been at 48kHz, not 44, and if the only way you can judge the quality of sounds is by the sampling rate, and you question the benefits of more ROM possibly providing both more variety of sounds, longer/better samples, and the benefits of some well-done velocity switching than I can't see how my words will sway you. I respect the fact that you're not really looking to be swayed anyway, right?

 

So who am I talking to?

:-)

 

Anyway -people that actually listen to the quality of sound, see the diversity of functions, experience the many hardware controls/pads/etc, and already know the quality and equity of what Korg is able to produce in other forms of synthesis that we are promising by the open architecture will make up their mind about the price/performance of the OASYS. It's simply too early to make a final judgement before a product is in the stores, and it is impossible to try to completely quantify all of this simply on paper and on a forum.

 

So I wish you good luck with your music, and the gear you have chosen - it seems that it is serving you well and I'm truly happy for that. As we develop other products in the future I certainly hope that you will check them out, I'm sure some of the other things we will make will be a better fit for your needs. And I hope you remember our dialog and think that "that guy" from Korg tried to answer me honestly and treated me with respect, let's see what they come up with next.

 

Please don't mistake my couple of jokes in the message, I'm just having fun with myself and trying to keep this informal so you understand that I'm not arguing with you.

 

Happy music-making!

 

Jerry Kovarsky

[fisheye]

When I read that first post of capnzoot, I kept thinking: well said, but I've heard this before.

 

This is not something that holds for NAMM and this forum. It's everywhere in live. For example, me playing before an audience after years and years of practice, while the people in audience are saying 'it doesn't swing', 'they need a drummer', 'I don't know that song, why don't they play standards', etc. Or the listeners to my demo-cd, judging me on the first 20 seconds of it.

 

Or people buying a Mars, because there was a pretty looking girl in the adds.

 

It's just how people work; we are stupid, fast-judging, selfless, etc. An open internet forum will reflect that. People have always been that way, but nowadays it gets thrown into the world through mordern communication.

 

On Northern Sounds Forum, a lot of sample-makers are present. No one says anything bad about their samples, since people are usually decent enough to not criticize hard when the maker is present. It results in an uninteresting forum.

 

Try to relativise the things said on this forum. But not too much, since the truth is somewhere in between the politenesses and hard criticisms.

[MikeT156]

Jerry:

 

I very happy that you are taking the time to answer questions for the folks on this forum, including me. I may not be a potential customer for the Oasys, however, I've looked at other Korg products, and back eons ago, I had an analog CX-3 that served me extremely well, and allowed me to retire my Hammond and save my back. It sounded great through a pair of wooden Leslies, and it wasn't near as heavy. I've done my share of comparing the Hammond XK-3 to the CX-3, and being the bargain hunter I am, I have a liking for the CX-3 v2 because I think it does a great Hammond thing, has a nice leslie simm, and being there's a lot of serious organ guys jumping for the XK-3, a buyers market for used CX-3's. The price of new ones aren't too shabby either. I could capture one for about 3 or 400 bucks less than a new XK-3. Being that I mainly play piano, I don't need the latest and greatest Hammond. Any kind of organ is not in my immediate future, as I'm eyeing the DSI KB Evolver next, but don't rule me out as a future customer.

 

The concept of the Oasys is a good one, I really wasn't aware that there was any system modeling elements in the new KB. It's difficult to distinguish the sonic value of the new PCM synth or a new VA synth from one video demo. I didn't know or understand of what you are trying to achieve with the huge amount of room in the ROM for sample libraries. But, it sounds like a good thing. I can certainly see that having a hard drive is a benefit, as well as a CD, and you're correct, they're not terribly expensive. I like having the option of adding a hard drive via USB to my Motif if I would ever need it, but typically, I would find plenty of space on a Smartmedia card or two for what I'm going to store, primarily patches, performance setups, and sequences. I realize from past experience than an internal hard drive is quicker because its connected directly to the bus, rather than connected via a cable to an external unit. The USB 1.1 on the Motif isn't going to break any speed records anyway, but that doesn't matter. My needs are a lot more simple than what can be achieved on an Oasys class workstation. For me, the Motif ES8 was the best solution for my musical needs, because I could add to the system as I need to, and not have to pop for all the hardware at once.

 

Obviously, theres been a lot of verbal slams unncessarily thrown at the Oasys, and I hope you continue to take the time to explain the difference between the Oasys and the current crop of workstations. There's a lot of players on this site that can see a need for the new workstation, so it would be worth your efforts.

 

Thanks for listening. I'm sure your experience on this forum will improve, there's nowhere to go but up.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike T.

 

Edit: Fisheye-quite true, very appropriate.

[Geoff Grace]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

One of the things I mentioned (and Mike Martin also brought up) was that some people seem to be forming some pretty hard and fast opinions much more these days without actually trying the piece, though.

Dave, before I got my hands on the keyboard Poly Evolver at your place, I was more of the mind that the rackmount unit would be the one for me. After trying the keyboard, I became much more enamored with owning the keyboard itself. In other words, I agree - there is a lot to be said for hands on experience.

 

Originally posted by jerrythek:

After stating a number of times that the voice architecture of the HD-1 engine is completely new (new osc design, new filters, new EG, LFO's etc. etc.), with many things done in response to user requests, and to develop a completely new VA engine in the AL-1, along with many new effects and Stephen's 2 years of development into new KARMA functions - to have all this new development called repackaged technology is ill-informed.

Jerry, would you liken the new OASYS to the current Mac OS X in that the modern Mac OS has completely different underpinnings via its UNIX core and offers new features, but it still retains enough of the look and feel of its Mac OS 9 predecessor to be considered a "Mac" OS? I caught the OASYS demo twice at NAMM, and while I acknowledge all you've written above, wouldn't you say that it still retains a certain amount of the sound and feel of its KARMA, OASYS, and other Korg predecessors? Obviously while we're not talking about "repackaged technology," we are talking about a special heritage here, and I think that's a good thing.

 

Originally posted by burningbusch:

What if, due to the fact that the OASYS capabilities are not burned into hardware as they are on other synths, the functionality of the OASYS in 12-24 months is significantly enhanced from what it is today?

Busch, this is an important point because the OASYS concept has always been as much about potential and promise as it has been about what is. And with each new OASYS-based release (Prophecy, Z1, OASYS PCI, etc.), Korg has successfully upped the ante on OASYS realizing its potential.

 

At the same time, as a Z1 and OASYS PCI card owner, I've experienced some disappointment with the limits of Korg's follow-through on these products. Perhaps due to the increased power, flexibility, and price of the new OASYS keyboard, Korg will venture forth beyond version 2.0 in this instance; but then again, perhaps they won't. Only time will tell. However, my experience shows me that it's best to buy a product based on what it can do today rather than on hints of what it will be able to do tomorrow.

 

That being said, what the latest OASYS can do now is pretty impressive, and I still own my Z1 and OASYS PCI card - both their initial and final versions were quite good!

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Stephen Kay]

Originally posted by: Geoff Grace

I caught the OASYS demo twice at NAMM, and while I acknowledge all you've written above, wouldn't you say that it still retains a certain amount of the sound and feel of its KARMA, OASYS, and other Korg predecessors? Obviously while we're not talking about "repackaged technology," we are talking about a special heritage here, and I think that's a good thing.

That's true to a degree, but it's good to make the distinction between "repackaged technology" and "enhanced versions of previously existing technologies with new functionality." For example, KARMA existed before the OASYS. But the KARMA in the OASYS is not the KARMA in the Karma Music Workstation. It's a far more advanced beast, encompassing the last 4 years of my work. So I would say the OASYS builds on some previous Korg Technologies, in addition to having completely new technologies. You build on your strengths, keep the stuff that's good and improve it, the bad falls by the wayside - it's "evolution." Anyone calling the OASYS "repackaged technology" is not informed. Everything in there that has a basis in some previous technology has been expanded and improved. For example, it has the WaveStation wave-sequencing in it. But it's not the same spec that was frozen when that product was discontinued. It's got a bunch of new features, and editing capabilities that go far beyond the original implementation. I'm sure Jerry can go into more detail, but that's an example.

[MikeT156]

Stephen:

 

Try not to be offended too much by the "repackaged" technology references. It's difficult to hear a new technology from a short video demo. I don't know that I would just write off the Oasys as a repackaged Triton, its not fair, as well as uninformed.

 

I can understand how it would upset you, if I spent 4 years developing new technology and were dismissed without a fair evaluation of the new concept and design, I'd be jacked too. Hang in there, most folks are a lot more open minded on this forum than it appears. We'll be waiting to see what develops for the Oasys, and hope that you will keep us up to date.

 

Mike T.