Analyze this chord's function in "Wave" (theory thread)

[Dave Horne]

It's worth mentioning since most of us look at that Bb dim 7th chord as represnting A7, that Bb dim 7th chord (either as a Eø7 chord or A7b9), would seem to indicate D minor which is where we ultimately wind up.

[marino]

I usually avoid 'theory' discussions like the pest, but this time I'd like to have some "academic" fun (I am a jazz teacher, after all ). I'll include a didactic summary for non-jazzers..

 

I think the best explanation was given by Stoo Schultz, but I'd like to approach the question from another point of view.

 

To me, the Bbdim has little to do with a rootless V7b9; it functions, more simply, as a "leading' diminished chord.

 

Consider the following, abused progression:

Dmaj7 – Ebdim. – Em7 – Fdim. – F#m7

As heard at the beginning of “Easy Living” and countless other “turnaround based” songs (I've transposed it in the same key of “Wave” for the sake of this example);

here, the two diminished chords act as "passing' chords; they link successive chords belonging to the same key at a whole-tone distance, by "filling' the chromatic space between those chords with their root notes. For example, the root of Fdim fills the chromatic space between the roots of Em7 and F#m7.

 

But of course, you could also look at those chords as V7b9 of sort; more precisely (unless you really add the V7 root), they can be considered the seventh degree of the harmonic minor scale referred to the following "target' chord. For example, the Fdim (enarmonically E#dim.) can be referred to the F# harmonic minor scale – even if the chord that follows is not a minor tonic, but a m7; its minor quality is close enough to justify this analysis, as seen in hundreds of jazz standard where a dominant chord does resolve a fourth higher, but with a different function chord than the I (F7 to Bbm7, G7 to Cm7b5, Eb7 to Ab7, and so on).

 

So far, so good. But this kind of progression also works backwards:

 

F#m7 – Fdim. – Em7 – Ebdim. - Dmaj7

 

Please note that this succession of chords sounds very similar to the previous one! The "passing' function of the diminished chords is still very clear; but this time, it's difficult to say that you can treat them as rootless V7 chords, because those chords would refer to the *previous* one as their tonic; and a I-V progression, followed by another chord a minor third above (Em7 – B7b9 – Dmaj7 in our example) is unheard of.

Nonetheless, this progression is very much in use, for example in “Here's that Rainy Day”, (Am7 – Abdim. – Gm7), “All the Things You Are” (Cm7 – Bdim. – Bbm7), and in a lot of Duke Ellington turnarounds. Here, the function of the diminished chord is clearly of a 'passing' chord which add motion and color, and can't be referred to as a rootless V7b9.

 

Now bear with me: This type of passing function of the diminished chord is sometimes also found *without any particular 'starting' chord*; the important thing is its target, or resolution, chord, which root is almost invariably a semitone higher or lower than the root of the diminished chord. Some examples:

D7/A – Abdim. – Gm7 (“Corcovado”)

Emaj7 – Gdim. – F#m7 (“Chelsea Bridge”)

Bbmaj7 – Bdim. – Bbm7 (“Once I Loved” – I love this one! )

Etc., plus the usual turnaround

Cmaj7 – Ebdim. – Dm7 – G7

which you've improvised thousands of times between choruses.

 

In this case, the diminished chord act as a "leading' chord of sorts, providing tension and color before resolving on the following chord, whatever its function.

 

How all this applies to "Wave"? simple: Since the tune modulates to the fourth degree right after its start, the diminished chord adds a little suspension, or maybe a little "suspence', before the modulation. Think of the basic progression as such:

 

| Dmaj7 | % | Am7 | D7|

| G maj7 | etc…

 

The adding of the "leading' diminished chord in the second bar gives balance and interest to the whole section. And yes, I feel that it *has* to do with the lyrics!

 

Another consideration about that Dmaj7 chord leading directly to a Bb dim.: Just substitute the I chord with the vi (a common tonic substitution), and it suddendly appears more coherent:

Bm7 – Bbdim. – Am7.

 

Speaking of which – has anybody noted that the A section of Wave has something of a twisted blues form? 12 bars, starts with I chord, IV chord at the fifth bar, (sort of) back to tonic at the eleventh bar...

 

That said... “If it sounds good, it is good”.

 

Carlo

[Yoozer]

So whose homework assignment was this, and in what range does this question fall if it were given in class?

 

Because I'm not getting this at all. I'm hesitant to wish I would get it, if it involved typing out a 20-line answer . For the part of me that wishes to get a clue about this, tell me please if it's novice level or severely advanced so I can stop worrying (or start) .

[Jazz+]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

It's worth mentioning since most of us look at that Bb dim 7th chord as represnting A7, that Bb dim 7th chord (either as a Eø7 chord or A7b9), would seem to indicate D minor which is where we ultimately wind up.

Well, even sooner than D minor we arrive at D7, only 4 beats after the Bb dim. And D7 is simply preceded by its ii chord (A-7)

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Marino, I love Once I Loved, too!

 

Diminished chords are great, aren't they? I think it's normal for people to have differing opinions about them - I've have various discussions about them in the past, people can never seem to agree. They're so vague, so ambiguous! I think that's the point.

 

I can agree with viewing them as passing chords, but it's also natural to substitute other changes for them, like II-V's. I think both approaches must be considered.

 

Consider the following:

 

Bm | Bbdim | Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7

 

A common substition would be:

 

Bm E7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 | D7 | Gmaj7

 

Eb7's a tritone sub of A7.

 

Or, you could just leave it alone and play Bbdim. But you'd still have to decide what scale to play, and you'd probably pick the same scale as A7b9. (I argued for E7 in a previous post, but I was really just playing devil's advocate)

 

Once I Loved has beautiful use of diminished chords and inversions.

 

The sequence you mentioned goes like this:

 

Cmaj7 | Cm7 F7 | Bbmaj7 | % |

Bdim | Bbm6 | D7/A | Ab7#11 |

Gm7 | A7aug | Dm6 | D7 ||

 

(or at least, those are the changes I use).

 

I treat that Bbm6 as an Eb9/Bb, myself. (Eb7's a tritone sub of A7)

 

And when I'm soloing, I treat the Bdim as G7 chord.

 

So, simplified down, you could say it's

 

Cmaj7 | Cm7 F7 | Bbmaj7 | % |

G7 | A7aug | D7 | % |

Gm7 | A7aug | Dm6 | D7 ||

 

But if you play it that way, it doesn't sound as mournfully introspective and heartbroken as if you play all those diminished chords and inversions. But, when you're soloing on it, it helps to simplify it. Or should I say, to approach it from a couple of different points of view at the same time. Then you have choices. At least, that's my approach.

 

Also, I don't know about you, but when stating the melody (or playing behind someone else stating the melody), I will play voicings one way, so as to support the melody. But when soloing, I might feel more free to interpret the changes differently, or to substitute other changes.

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

It's worth mentioning since most of us look at that Bb dim 7th chord as represnting A7, that Bb dim 7th chord (either as a Eø7 chord or A7b9), would seem to indicate D minor which is where we ultimately wind up.

Well, even sooner than D minor we arrive at D7, only 4 beats after the Bb dim. And D7 is simply preceded by its ii chord (A-7)

I don't look at that D7 as a harmonic goal per se, it is (as you've mentioned) along with Am7, the ii7 V7 of IV or G major .... though a major IV chord is certainly indicative of major and not minor.

 

The A section ends in D minor. The bridge starts with a ii7 V7 of III ( Gm7 C7 going to F) if we look as that in D minor. (Actually the modulation of i to III in minor is the only natural modulation as it uses no accidentals.) The tune also ends in D minor as well. For me, that Bb dim 7th chord is a key chord - it seems to say, enough of this major business, I'm giving you a hint of minor, just be patient ... or something like that. That's my take on it.

[coyote]

It's second-level in elementary jazz harmony. I'll explain my position, briefly:

 

We're all familiar (presumbly) with the basic building block of jazz harmony, the V7-I resolution. The doowop guys in the 50s built a whole slew of songs around the first [/i]standard progression[/i] based on that: I VI- II- V7. (Example: "Why Do Fools Fall In Love".)

 

The second-level use of that progression is to substitute some chords which contain similar harmonic elements. Here are a couple:

I #Idim7 II- V7

I bIIIdim7 II- V7 (this is the one Jobim used in the 'Wave' example).

 

Understand that theory exists only to atempt to explain why something sounds 'good' to most of us. There are principles that are good to know an do generally apply, but they are not rules.

 

Originally posted by Yoozer:

So whose homework assignment was this, and in what range does this question fall if it were given in class?

 

Because I'm not getting this at all. I'm hesitant to wish I would get it, if it involved typing out a 20-line answer . For the part of me that wishes to get a clue about this, tell me please if it's novice level or severely advanced so I can stop worrying (or start) .

[Yoozer]

Thank you for the additional information . I've only taken a brief improv course on jazz, and they assumed I'd either pick up the material (some older standards) fast enough either through practice (I can't read notes at an acceptable speed here, but chords are so-so) or osmosis (there was another more experienced player who taught me a few tricks) or trust my memory for the main progressions and stuff, but the actual 'formula' behind it as you wrote it down here never got specific attention. Still, I learned a lot from it and it's working through until this day.

 

Looks like more interesting material to study . I regularly see material here that's deeper theory-wise than on Harmony Central, and it's cool.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by coyote:

It's second-level in elementary jazz harmony. I'll explain my position, briefly:

 

We're all familiar (presumbly) with the basic building block of jazz harmony, the V7-I resolution. The doowop guys in the 50s built a whole slew of songs around the first [/i]standard progression[/i] based on that: I VI- II- V7. (Example: "Why Do Fools Fall In Love".)

 

The second-level use of that progression is to substitute some chords which contain similar harmonic elements. Here are a couple:

I #Idim7 II- V7

I bIIIdim7 II- V7 (this is the one Jobim used in the 'Wave' example).

Sorry to nit-pick, but the progression in Wave is actually I bVIdim7 Vm7 I7 IV etc. Unless you're thinking of it in the key of the IV chord (G), in which case, it's correct.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

(using John McLaughlin Group voice:)

 

I and V7 chords are strong and manly.

 

Diminished chords are soft and squishy.

 

Agree or disagree?

 

[Dave Horne]

The second-level use of that progression is to substitute some chords which contain similar harmonic elements. Here are a couple:

I #Idim7 II- V7

I bIIIdim7 II- V7 (this is the one Jobim used in the 'Wave' example).

Not really. The biii dim 7 in D major would be F dim 7th (or B dim 7th ... actually Cb dim 7th) and the chord in question is Bb dim 7th ... unless you're talking about something else entirely(?).

 

Also, the examples you give I, #I dim 7 .... or I, biii dim 7 all have ii as their immediate goal. The Bb dim 7th chord in Wave goes to Am7 (which I look at as the ii7 V7 of IV or G major).

[coyote]

If you look at my earlier posts, I stated that the key is temporarily displaced, that the Bbdim chord is indeed functioning as the bIIIdim of the coming G major. Looking at it that way gives a soloist a different harmonic frame of reference; given that we could then sub for any of those four chords (or toss secondary dominant turns into it) the soloist may "play the changes" outside the key and then return to the melody and it sounds natural. Instead of simply playing the melody of the first 5 measures on the page we could play a sax line whose harmonic content would look something like this:

|: D Maj7 | Ab dim | B-7 E7 | A-7 D7 | G Maj7 |

 

with a goal of landing at that Gmaj7 as your temporary key center.

 

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Not really. The biii dim 7 in D major would be F dim 7th (or B dim 7th ... actually Cb dim 7th) and the chord in question is Bb dim 7th ... unless you're talking about something else entirely(?).

 

Also, the examples you give I, #I dim 7 .... or I, biii dim 7 all have ii as their immediate goal. The Bb dim 7th chord in Wave goes to Am7 (which I look at as the ii7 V7 of IV or G major).

[Dave Horne]

Got it.

[Dave Horne]

Coyote, your explanation makes sense. I apologize for not reading everything before I posted. When you look at G major as a target, the Bb dim 7 doesn't see so strange at all.

[Jazz+]

My view is that the A7b9 (Bb dim) behaves as V (A7) of V (D7) in G.

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

Originally posted by Dan South:

These are the chord changes for the first four measure of Tom Jobim's "Wave." Can you explain the theoretical function of the Bb diminished chord in the second measure.

 

|: D Maj7 | Bb dim | A-7 | D7 |

The function is clear if you think of it as a substitute for E7. Consider...

 

Dmaj7 | E7 | Am7 | D7

 

Nothing surprising there, right?

 

Let's alter the E7 to E7b5b9

 

Dmaj7 | E7b5b9 | Am7 | D7

 

E7b5b9 comprises the notes (E, G#, B, D, F). Drop the E and put B in the bass, and you have Bdim7 (B, D, F, G#). Drop the G# and you have Bdim (B, D, F).

 

Result of E7 substitution:

 

Dmaj7 | Bdim | Am7 | D7

The only problem with that explanation is that you end up with a Bdim instead of a Bbdim

Oops! You're right! I shouldn't post when I'm half-asleep! I didn't even spell the E7b5b9 chord properly.

 

 

Hmm, Bb dim is Bb, C#, E, so it's probably a substitute for A7.

 

The base progression would be something like this.

 

Dmaj7 | A7 | Am7 | D7

 

Bbdim works as a substitute for the A7.

[Dave Horne]

I know I am not alone in thinking that the jump from D major 7 to the Bb dim 7th chord is a bit jarring. If Jobim had inserted a Bm7 between the D major 7 and the Bb dim 7th chord, I wonder if we would even be having this discussion.

 

Try playing the first bar two beats each - D major 7, Bm7 and you'll hear what I mean.

[coyote]

I can see where you'd think that.

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

I know I am not alone in thinking that the jump from D major 7 to the Bb dim 7th chord is a bit jarring.

I tend to think of the Dmaj7 as sort of a preamble. It's a statement of intent; it really doesn't lead anywhere and does nothing but say "hey, at some point this song's gonna come bak to this". It's a chord that has basically resolved itself - as we know, once you've resolved to a tonic you're free to do anything else you'd like if the melody supports it.

[Jazz+]

A I chord is fully resolved, therefore it can go anywhere.

[stoo schultz]

Another nice feeling in the tune is the chromatic descending inner voice throughout the A part, that sort of binds all the chords together:

 

Chord - voice:

 

Dmaj7 - D

Bbdim - Db

Am7 D7 - C

Gmaj7 - B

Gm7 Gb7 - Bb

B7 - A

E7 Bb7 - Ab

A7 - G

Dmin7 - F

 

So if you wanted the second chord to be diminished to support that lyric "try to fight the rising sea" it would have to be the Bb, to carry that inner voice.

[marino]

Excellent insight from Stoo again.

 

It made me discover something too: In the English version of the lyrics, the concept of the "Wave" is *not* on the ascending arpeggio melody on the diminished chord. In the Portuguese version ("La Onda") it is. It works better in the original to me.

 

Also - I would ask members partecipating in this type of thread to take the time to read all previous posts before posting themselves... there are a few posts on pag.2 which do nothing than repeat concepts already debated to death.... thanks.

[Dave Horne]

Also - I would ask members partecipating in this type of thread to take the time to read all previous posts before posting themselves... there are a few posts on pag.2 which do nothing than repeat concepts already debated to death.... thanks.

I'm guessing I'm guilty here and I apologize. I went back and read (skimmed also, sorry) page one and the first person to mention the biii dim 7th of G major (as the function of that Bb dim 7th) chord was Coyote.

 

Coyote wrote ...

In this context, it's a bIIIdim7 which subs for the VI- chord, with A-7 D7 being the II- V7 in the temporarily displaced key.

The second person to say essentially the same was Cnegrad ...

2) It's simultaneously functioning as Flat-III-diminished in the key of G (the target key of the moment), naturally descending to it's II, followed by it's V and ultimately the new I chord, G.

For my money, that's the function of that chord. My explanation, after some thinking, was not on the mark. For Coyote, the 1st prize is one week in Philadelphia, for Cnegrad, the 2nd prize is two weeks.

 

(Saturday night and no job, great credentials, right? I am playing playing Monday night of all nights - go figure.)