Does the ProMega use additive or subtractive techniques to create its piano sounds?

[Jake Johnson]

If I understand correctly, the ProMega piano includes harmonics based on the velocity strike. Is this a matter of adding harmonics to a low velocity sample, or is the sample a hard stike, with harmonics reduced for lower velocities? (Or both...?)

[Immo]

Originally posted by Jake Johnson:

If I understand correctly, the ProMega piano includes harmonics based on the velocity strike. Is this a matter of adding harmonics to a low velocity sample, or is the sample a hard stike, with harmonics reduced for lower velocities? (Or both...?)

The harmonics are added via a proprietary model. I believe this model is built upon research GEM acquired via their partnership with a university. What the input of this model is (velocity or otherwise) I'm not sure about. So I believe when you press a key, the model scans what other keys are depressed and then the it determines how and what harmonics are played.

 

The acoustic pianos are a combination of physical models and sampling, and the electric pianos I believe are built using only physical modeling.

 

I'm sure someone else will jump in with more details and/or correct me where I'm wrong.

 

You can find more details on the http://www.generalmusic.com/ website. Navigate to the Promega 3 listing and it should tell you about the various models that are used on the Promega 3.

[DaveMcM]

Originally posted by Immordino:

The harmonics are added via a proprietary model. I believe this model is built upon research GEM acquired via their partnership with a university.

 

The acoustic pianos are a combination of physical models and sampling, and the electric pianos I believe are built using only physical modeling.

Hi Jake,

 

Thanks for your interest in the Promega 3.

 

As Immordino has mentioned, the computer models running in the Promega series were realized through a collaboration of GEM and the University of Padua in Italy. Much time was spent analyzing all of the physical properties of an acoustic piano and creating their mathematical equivalents.

 

The 5 DRAKE processors inside the Promega 3 have the combined power to recreate in real-time all of the subtle nuances that occur in its acoustic counterpart and allow for 320 note polyphony. The Promega 2 contains 3 DRAKE processors and has 160 note polyphony.

 

In a nut shell, the acoustic pianos work this way; high velocity samples are used as harmonic content reference points. A computer model then generates the overtone series that would occur based on the velocity of a key strike(s) and also creates the sympathetic harmonics based on other undamped strings to create the final sound. Another model controls the decay of individual harmonics as the string(s) loose momentum until they come to rest creating an authentic acoustic piano decay.

 

The result is a great dynamic range without the typical velocity switching that is used in some other digital pianos or the unnatural filtered sound that can occur when using a LPF to shave of the upper harmonics to simulate a soft key strike.

 

So to answer you question directly, neither additive nor subtractive synthesis by definition is used in the Promega series.

 

Again as Immordino correctly stated, the electro-mechanical keyboards in the Vintage section are entirely derived via computer modeling.

 

Best Regards,

 

Dave

[orangefunk]

and just to add... it all works very well indeed!

 

Just a thought, I was listening to the rhodes sample the other day and I'm sure I could hear a difference between hitting a chord while holding the sustain pedal (where string vibration of unheld notes would occur on a real piano) and not holding the sustain pedal

 

I'm sure a real rhodes doesn't do this, as the tines/tonebars don't really interact with one another in the same way a string does...

 

Its not a complaint, just an observation and I quite like the effect anyway.

 

Cheers

O

[fisheye]

I just recorded a chord with and without pedal on my Rhodes. I hear a difference, but very, very small. Strange thing is, I seem to hear the difference much more when playing over my old Roland Cube. Might be in my head.

 

here\'s the link to the recording (in wma)

[orangefunk]

Originally posted by fisheye:

I just recorded a chord with and without pedal on my Rhodes. I hear a difference, but very, very small. Strange thing is, I seem to hear the difference much more when playing over my old Roland Cube. Might be in my head.

 

here\'s the link to the recording (in wma)

Yeah I play a chord and then press the sustain on and off periodically and I can definitely hear new harmonics being added... haven't heard your mp3 yet..

[DaveMcM]

Originally posted by capnzoot:

In reality, the ProMega is essentially a very sophisticated version of that "between technologies" type of synth known as the "sample transient". Examples of which are the D-50, Kawai K-I and K-II, Ensoniq ESQ, and Korg DW...

 

The ProMega operates along this line in that it finds the sample, uses subtractive filtering to define the content

Hi There,

 

The D50, ESQ-1 and DW8000 were the first steps into digitally controlled filters (LP, HP, BP), envelope generators and LFO's. Additionally they used a new technology for the time to replace or compliment the common analog waveforms (Sine, Triangle, Square, Sawtooth, etc.) The [/]new technology[/i] was called sampling. Short samples were used primarily as attack transients and then combined with the usual analog type waveforms to create a closer facsimile to the acoustic instrument that was being synthesized.

 

As I remember, and I could be wrong here, the Kawai KI/II used additive synthesis to create its starting point and then the resultant waveform traveled through the normal set of synth parameters (ENV, Filter, LFO, etc.).

 

Both of these advances in technology boosted the capabilities of keyboards to more accurately emulate acoustic instrument properties.

 

BUT, to compare the Promega to any of these instruments is like comparing a Yugo (BTW-I used to own one and loved it) to a Corvette.

 

You comments are accurate but there are years of information and technological advances that you have left out. The original question in this post refers to additive and subtractive synthesis. The Promega uses neither of these technologies in their commonly thought of form. Yes, a computer model looks at the reference sample and then determines which frequencies should be present based on what is happening on the keyboard and damper pedal, so part of that could be though of as subtractive synthesis. Then again, when two or more keys are struck and/or when the damper pedal is depressed, the model determines the additional frequencies that would be created under these circumstances and generate those frequencies. This could be considered additive synthesis.

 

Using the terms additive and subtractive are not really relevant when speaking about the Promega, at least when thinking of those terms in their common textbook description.

 

Jake, may I suggest you just find a Promega and give it a try. That is the best way to know if it will fill your needs.

 

Phil, you know I love'ya. **Los Sanchez** one night?

 

Dave

[orangefunk]

Dave,

 

Can the Promega OS be updated at all?

 

I was thinking it might be good to expose other paramters to the user other than PAN and Filter..

[DaveMcM]

Originally posted by capnzoot:

Oh please, spank me, I've been naughty! Thank you sir, may I have another?

Where's Sue when you need her?

 

So anyway, the Yugo Corvette thing holds up well, too. Well, the Yugo didn't but the vette does.

I really did have a Yugo. It was based on a Fiat design and actually built quite well. It was loaded too; 5 speed manual transmission, rear defroster/wiper, air conditioning, 4 speaker AM/FM stereo w/cassette, reclining front bucket seats (no not plastic pickle barrels) . I bought it brand new for $2995.00 US.

 

Brad wants Los Sanchez, too.

 

Dan Gallagher and Denny asked about you last night, I told them you were still gay, but had a child for cover. No, really, just kidding. Hey,... that's not my burrito!

Is that a hint of what (or who) you will be doing?

 

And hey, I am a manly man. I don't even like holding myself when taking a leak.

 

See ya in Anaheim,

 

Dave

[Jake Johnson]

I'd certainly like to play one. Are there any distributers in or near Atlanta?

[DaveMcM]

Originally posted by orangefunk:

Dave,

 

Can the Promega OS be updated at all?

 

I was thinking it might be good to expose other parameters to the user other than PAN and Filter..

Absolutely. The O/S is in FLASH so any changes to the system can be sent in via the computer port on the back of the instrument.

 

As for adding additional control for deeper editing, the best I can say is I will ask and ask again to see if that could be a possibility in a future O/S release. capnzoot mentioned the soundboard parameter from the Pro1 and Pro2 and that would be cool to have again. However, the level of the sympathetic vibrations is pretty good to me the way it is, though it would be nice to crank it up a bit every once in a while.

 

Dave

[DaveMcM]

Originally posted by Jake Johnson:

I'd certainly like to play one. Are there any distributers in or near Atlanta?

Hi Jake,

 

I will check into the dealer situation in your area and let you know.

 

Best Regards,

 

Dave

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by capnzoot:

Dan Gallagher and Denny asked about you last night

Do me a favor, Phil - next time you see Gallagher, smack him on the back of the head for me.

 

dB

[gangsu]

Originally posted by DaveMcM:

Originally posted by capnzoot:

Oh please, spank me, I've been naughty! Thank you sir, may I have another?

Where's Sue when you need her?

I feel a new vocation coming on....

Send that Gallagher dude over, too!