DanS Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 I brought my laptop to the jam this weekend, and we horsed around with some loops. We're thinking of adding some elements to a few of the songs. any of you guys regularly do this live? Any pitfalls I should be aware of? What kind of click reference are you running to your drummers? Used the B4 for the first time with the band too, cool!! What we record in life, echoes in eternity. MOXF8, Electro 6D, XK1c, Motif XSr, PEKPER, Voyager, Univox MiniKorg. https://www.abandoned-film.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle ggurl Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 I have nothing concrete to add, but I posted a similar question a few months ago and it seems no one here really does much of this. However, some folks here directed me to a site that has lots of info, and you may be able to glean info there too -- it's called Looper's Delight: http://www.loopersdelight.com/loop.html Fool disclosure: I had to put this "live loop" project on the back burner to deal with getting the band CD done, so haven't spent much time at that site, I admit. BUT, it looks promising ... Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prague Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Are you just trying to get people to play to a click? Is that really a "high technology"? It's too bad musicians are using technology to have a machine play for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanS Posted October 25, 2004 Author Share Posted October 25, 2004 Next. What we record in life, echoes in eternity. MOXF8, Electro 6D, XK1c, Motif XSr, PEKPER, Voyager, Univox MiniKorg. https://www.abandoned-film.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle ggurl Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Originally posted by Prague: Are you just trying to get people to play to a click? Is that really a "high technology"? It's too bad musicians are using technology to have a machine play for themselves.No prague, if you read Dan's question, he wants to incorporate loops into the music. This is pretty common, actually -- and a lot of GOOD musicians do it; it's the same thing as using sequences! Rush really sucks, huh? What a shame they use a click sometimes. Must be because they have to ... OK, but on to the subject at hand: musicians obviously have to be in time with the MIDI clock the loops are running on, hence the click. For example, if a loop comes in only for measures 1 thru 24 of a song but then drops out for 16 measures, how ya gonna make sure everyone comes in properly on the "1" when the loop starts up again? Actually, the other solution is "tap tempo," which is much more interesting to me than click; Dan, that's the route I'm exploring ... let the drummer dictate tempo, and you or he "triggers" tempo at the right time for the loop to come in. Then of course, everyone's playing to the loop's tempo, but it's really the band's tempo 2 measures before, or whatever. The program I am looking at is Ableton Live because it does tap tempo and is "loop performance" oriented. Reason does not have tap tempo; that was another program I was looking at. So as you can see, Dan, I really haven't gotten too far in trying to apply this to real life yet. OK, as Dan said, "next" ... Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 One of our drummers had a device that would allow him to read beats per minute off his snare hits. It was a little box with a red LED. Not sure what it was called. But if we needed to get 120bpm by a certain point in the song (so he could trigger a loop or a sequence), he would use that to get us close. He preferred that to playing against a click or a loop. Also it made a difference to him if he triggered the loops rather than having someone else do it. Best, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangefunk Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 One problem I have with loops and sequencers on stage is the problem of knowing if they are actually playing live at all... I just saw Bebel Gilberto "live" and it all sounded like it was coming from a laptop at times... everyone was looking at the keyboard player to tell them when the changes would be and he had his eyes on the arrange screen on his laptop... bad sign.. Howver, I do think its possible to integrate it in a much better way, esp if there is someone dedicated to this kind of sound, instruments and so forth.. I've never come across anyone who can reallyu play this stuff live, y'know in terms of dynamics and knowing when to make the changes to match the music... Every guy I've used who uses these things seems to think its great to sound like Kraftwerk or a 1980s Detroit Techno LP when really I want someone to sound like a cosmic grooving drummer with world music influences.. it all gets old pretty quickly in my experience. I think with a lot of work and interaction it can really provide some great sounding material to the normal live band mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanS Posted October 26, 2004 Author Share Posted October 26, 2004 Thanks guys, and thanks Geek for taking the time to explain to the beloved but ignorant Prague. We're doing Need You Tonight (INXS), so I beat-mapped the tune in Acid, then looped the whole drum intro through to the end. I've put in a few musical cues for the guys to follow. We'll see how it goes this week. It just doesn't sound right with the drummer playing by himself. He wanted me to play a little handclap/hi hat pattern off my S80, that's when I thought of bringing the laptop along. I have no intentions of using the machine for more than a couple of tunes. We might do Fool In The Rain (Zep), so I was thinking of sequencing the big latin break in the middle, that sort of thing. There used to be a box on the market that followed the drummer's tempo, and sped up or slowed down the sequencer. Don't remember what it was though. I hear ya Orangefunk. I want to start doing some cool things with it, but don't want the band to feel they have to be slaves to it. What we record in life, echoes in eternity. MOXF8, Electro 6D, XK1c, Motif XSr, PEKPER, Voyager, Univox MiniKorg. https://www.abandoned-film.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Russian Dragon. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prague Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Originally posted by DanS: Thanks guys, and thanks Geek for taking the time to explain to the beloved but ignorant Prague.I'm a musician. Go figure. Keep in mind that using drum machines from 20 years ago presented the same "challenge". Ignorant means I simply don't know. I'll assume you meant to use a pejorative, which ignorant is not. After my 8th drum "machine" (hardware, software, and sequencers) ignorant simply isn't correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 One problem I have with loops and sequencers on stage is the problem of knowing if they are actually playing live at all... I just saw Bebel Gilberto "live" and it all sounded like it was coming from a laptop at times... everyone was looking at the keyboard player to tell them when the changes would be and he had his eyes on the arrange screen on his laptop... bad sign.. Couldn't have said it better myself. I'd rather be actually playing my parts than fiddle with laptops. Yuck. When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle ggurl Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Agent Cooper, what's Russion Dragon? Please elaborate. Yeah, sounds like we're all in agreement here, we don't want live players to be slaves to these things. As an aside, I was at a Journey show a few years back (I know there is/was a "Journey keyboards" thread up here recently which reminded me) and Jonathan Cain sometimes plays rhythm guitar and lets a sequencer handle the keys ... well, on "Chain Reaction" Jon steps out to front of stage with guitar to join Neal and Stevie, and Stevie starts singin' the verse ... but the intro keys part continues to play. Everyone on stage looked at each other in alarm like, "WTF is happening?" I still don't know if the singer just started too soon or if there was a glitch in the sequence, but that's the kind of thing you DON'T want happening. Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 I think this is what our drummer was using: http://home.att.net/~drums01/zz1.html Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g. Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 geekgurl, As I recall the first sync manipulator and (meter display) of midi timing was the Russian Dragon by Jeanius Electronics. I think it came out in '89 or '90. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Sayers Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 It could tell you if you were Rushing or Dragging to the tempo. Hence the name. cheers john Studio Design Forum Studios Under Construction Home Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted October 26, 2004 Share Posted October 26, 2004 Originally posted by Tusker: One of our drummers had a device that would allow him to read beats per minute off his snare hits. It was a little box with a red LED. Not sure what it was called. But if we needed to get 120bpm by a certain point in the song (so he could trigger a loop or a sequence), he would use that to get us close. Jerry: I also play with a drummer that swears by this device. He uses a Tempo Ref (apparently *used* to be called a Beat Bug, much like you linked to... ). More info can be found at: LugLock website I played around with this, and it came in handy for me, for things like keyboard or piano intros... helps to make sure you don't race the tempo too much (regardless of whether you're playing to any sequence or backing track or not... singers tend to dislike ballads at 182bpm for some reason. ). Cheers, Sven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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