Two Teachers?

[mound]

I've been studying classical piano for the last year with a very good teacher, and have no desire to stop studying with him. I spend 2-3 hours a day practicing this material. the problem? I really want to learn jazz (performance, theory and composition) and my teacher is strictly classically trained. We every so slightly touch on jazz now and then, but his knowledge of that form is limited.

 

I was thinking about finding a jazz piano teacher, but if I had two teachers, I don't know, I'd be conflicted about what to give more practice time to, and of course, my classical teacher probably wouldn't like my only giving him half of my attention!

 

Anybody out there ever take lessons from two teachers at once for the same instrument?

 

-Paul

[jazzyprof]

I tried that for a few months but I found that I couldn't do them both justice. I have a great classical piano teacher whom I've been studying with for about a year. But I also want to learn jazz so I signed up with a jazz piano teacher as well. After one month I realised that much of what my jazz teacher was teaching me I could learn on my own from books and instructional videos and software. Besides I was spending too much money and not enough time practising jazz to make the lessons worthwhile. The classical lessons however have taught me things I couldn't have easily picked up from books: proper posture, use of arm weight, technique for good tone production production, legato playing, etc. All that technique also transfers to jazz. I'm working on Bach Two and Three Part Inventions right now and I find that I'm developing a greater appreciation for polyphony, countermelodies, motif development. I listen to a jazz trumpeter like Clifford Brown now and I can hear a lot of Bach in the way he develops his lines. So, for now I've stopped the jazz piano lessons while I instruct myself from the Mark Levine book and Phil de Greg's book on jazz keyboard harmony. That, plus listening to a lot of jazz, playing along with Aebersold cd's, trying to transcribe solos...things I don't really need a teacher for. I figure that once I've achieved a basic fluency with jazz chords and progressions on my own, I will sign up for intermediate/advanced lessons with a jazz pianist, perhaps on a monthly basis.

[marino]

I've covered most roles in this plot - classical student, jazz student, classical teacher, jazz teacher. I find that having two separate teachers for classical and jazz can be great, given certain conditions. (Now, I won't attempt to explain all the hows and whys - bear with me )

 

I'd say, if you are a beginner on classical, it's a bit early to try to follow both paths at the same time. If possible, try to wait till you are surely on your own way as regard to reading and technique; let's say, a couple of years of classical studies, generically speaking. This is because the very early period of piano study is rather well defined on the classical side, and you could think that your two teachers are giving you contrasting indications, even if they're going to similar goals.

 

My advice: Try to concentrate on your classical studies and technique; but at the same time, do *two* other things:

- Try to get your feet (well, hands) wet by attempting some very simple blues playing, with the advice of some expert player;

- Study all the chords in all inversions. This doesn't have to be fast, and it has nothing to do with theory or technique - only with visualisation at the keyboard.

 

You can do that at your own pace, so it will be not too time-consuming. So you will not not really play jazz in this first period; but the two concept of simple improvisation and harmony knowledge will be unvaluable when you'll decide to tackle serious jazz studies a little later. Those two concept will become one single concept, of improvisation over harmonies. Youll'have better technical basis, so maybe you will not need to discuss technique with your jazz teacher, except for a few specific thing.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Carlo

[mound]

thanks for the comments.

 

marino-

I'd say, if you are a beginner on classical, it's a bit early to try to follow both paths at the same time. If possible, try to wait till you are surely on your own way as regard to reading and technique;

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. My reading and technique are already pretty darn good considering how dedicated to practice I've been.

 

with the advice of some expert player;

you mean a teacher? ;-)

 

- Study all the chords in all inversions. This doesn't have to be fast, and it has nothing to do with theory or technique - only with visualisation at the keyboard.

Yeah, I've done alot of that, with the major triads at least. That's helped out alot with the simple pop/rock band I've been playing keys in.

 

it's just that I've spent the last 10 years (well, 9 until I started piano a year ago) playing bass in rock, and then world/fusion/"jazzy" settings. My ears are waaaaay ahead of my hands on a piano in non-classical settings.. The classical stuff, I can bring some complex pieces to performance level in 2-4 months time just by shear repetition and because of my knack for memorization, but I'm not finding it's helping me improvise at all as far as being able to find voicings for what I hear in my head. I've sat myself down in front of my real book, and trying to navigate chord changes in realtime that I'd walk all over on the bass is very difficult. I need to better understand how to voice chords (solo or bass-less voicing), using inversions to limit hand motion.. it's like.. I know what I need to learn, but I've never been good at learning music from books.. I'd go farther in 6 months with a teacher than I would in a year with a book.

 

jazzyprof:

I'm working on Bach Two and Three Part Inventions right now and I find that I'm developing a greater appreciation for polyphony, countermelodies, motif development.

Yeah, I've been working on the 2part inventions as well. Great stuff!

[marino]

Mound - now that you've made your situation a bit clearer, allow me some further advice...

 

Originally posted by mound:

with the advice of some expert player;

you mean a teacher? ;-)

Not necesarily - any good jazz player can give you some advice on this. On the other hand, if you find the approach too difficult, just feel free to ask further advice, or find your own solutions. There are many ways to start with keyboard improvisation - the important thing is to get your feet wet, and just playing/improvising a lot. The only steady points: Learn the blues scales, and be sure to keep time.

 

- Study all the chords in all inversions. This doesn't have to be fast, and it has nothing to do with theory or technique - only with visualisation at the keyboard.

Yeah, I've done alot of that, with the major triads at least. That's helped out alot with the simple pop/rock band I've been playing keys in.

OK, that's a good start - but you're not even at the first step, which is to have all 12 majors *and* minor chords in all inversion under your hands/eyes. You should be able to link chords keeping the common notes, using the appropriate inversions.

*After* that, you start doing the same with four-note chords, all six basic types; Maj7, min7, dominant 7, half-diminished, diminished, tonic minor (a minor triad with a major 7th). Practice all 72 (6 x 12) of them in root position first, then the inversions, then link them in progressions. It's a lot of work - it could take one year or so. But it's the basis for any jazz work. *Don't* practice rootless voices for now! You have to acquire a sense of the basic harmonies first.

[mound]

well alright then! I'll get started :-) If I can get all that under my belt over the next year I'll seek out a jazz teacher. I just wish there were a way I could structure practicing that stuff. Do you recommend any books that are good for folks who learn better from an actual teacher?

[jazzyprof]

I have found the book Jazz Keyboard Harmony by Phil de Greg to be an absolute gem. It is truly a workbook, like working with a teacher. He guides you by the hand with detailed explanations and exercises with suggested fingerings. Plus it comes with a playalong CD.

[mound]

thanks jazzyprof - I'll check that out!

[Dan South]

As marino said, as long as you're not a beginner, it shouldn't be a problem. You may have to prioritize, though. For example, maybe tell your "jazz guy" that you're doing this in tandem with a strict classical curriculum and that when push comes to shove, you'll have to dedicate rehearsal time to upcoming recitals, etc.

 

It's a lot easier to have a mistress if she knows that you have a wife.

[mound]

I have found the book Jazz Keyboard Harmony by Phil de Greg to be an absolute gem. It is truly a workbook, like working with a teacher. He guides you by the hand with detailed explanations and exercises with suggested fingerings. Plus it comes with a playalong CD.

Well, I just got a copy of this book. So far it looks pretty impressive, I like how it is so methodical.. To make the most of though, I can easilly see myself spending a solid year working through it, more even depending on how much time I want to take from my classical practice. I figure if I can honestly conquer every part of this book, no skimming or "cheating", then I'll look for a jazz teacher to take me from there.

 

Do you have any further comments/insights on how I should approach this book?