Professional Arranger Keyboards for $3.5K

[Carlito]

Please give me one reason someone would spend almost $4,000 on one of these.I have to understand.I'm talking about the average Joe here, not that rich person who doesn't know what to do with his/her money.Do you think Korg expects to sell 500 of these?

 

web page

[Dave Bryce]

You would actually be amazed at how many of these get sold. Last I heard auto-accompaniment keyboards were extremely popular...outside the US.

 

When I was touring for Alesis, many of the music stores that I would go into in Europe and Asia had the pro keyboards in a small room in the back, and the auto-accompaniment keyboards displayed much more prominently in the front. They also had these sort of vending machines where you could buy SMF files to use in them.

 

As it was explained to me, there are quite a few restaurants, nightclubs, karaoke bars, etc. outside the US that use these rather than having to pay a full band. I was actually told that more than a few "performers" don't even use the "minus one" feature (where they turn one track of the SMF off and play along with it) - they just disable local control and pretend to play.

 

If you're playing (or perhaps I should say using) one of these professionally several nights a week, I imagine it's pretty easy to justify spending a bunch of money to get a good one.

 

dB

[Dreamer]

The Korg PA 1 X pro is maybe a bit overpriced for its features, however I have to say that there are other arranger keyboards that offer "almost" the same features for less money. Given that not many arranger players will use the sampling or sample playback feature (also because it's very primitive, compared with a dedicated sampler), I think that the Yamaha Tyros is an excellent keyboard, with great sounds (on the same level as the Motif ES, which "borrowed" its Mega-Voices from the Tyros itself) and good, usable styles.

If someone has something against the use of pre-programmed styles in a keyboard, just think of how many musicians use pre-programmed loops as a rhytm foundation for their tracks.

[moj]

If you think the Korg is expensive you should check out the Wersi IKARUS X-1. Very impressive specs, but cost's around $5000 US (4890 euros).

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/keoua/Wersi%20Keyboards/IKARUSX-1.jpg

 

The Wersi LOUVRE is their flaship keyboard. A three keyboard organ that can do it all. It looks like a pimped-out Triton..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/keoua/Wersi%20Keyboards/Louvre-3.jpg

[Carlito]

As it was explained to me, there are quite a few restaurants, nightclubs, karaoke bars, etc. outside the US that use these rather than having to pay a full band. I was actually told that more than a few "performers" don't even use the "minus one" feature (where they turn one track of the SMF off and play along with it) - they just disable local control and pretend to play.

although very sad, problably makes sense in some situations. But what bothers me the most is the price.What is inside those things that make them so expensive?

[zeronyne]

Originally posted by Carlito:

although very sad, problably makes sense in some situations. But what bothers me the most is the price.What is inside those things that make them so expensive?

You are mistaking the cost of manufacture with the selling price. They are not related. They are priced at what the market will bear. The market for high-end arrangers is completely different than for Pro MI, as DB has pointed out.

 

It's the same thing for Clavinovas. Does it cost twice as much to put a spinet-looking case on a P250 engine (or worse)? No, but people are willing to pay it, hence that's how much it costs.

[Carlito]

You are mistaking the cost of manufacture with the selling price. They are not related. They are priced at what the market will bear. The market for high-end arrangers is completely different than for Pro MI, as DB has pointed out.

 

It's the same thing for Clavinovas. Does it cost twice as much to put a spinet-looking case on a P250 engine (or worse)? No, but people are willing to pay it, hence that's how much it costs.

 

I got your point

[Geosync]

Don't be fooled by the "furiture look" of the Clavinova series.

The technology under the hood is most definately Yamaha's Ferarri technology.

[DJDM]

Originally posted by Geosync:

Don't be fooled by the "furiture look" of the Clavinova series.

The technology under the hood is most definately Yamaha's Ferarri technology.

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Images/Pianos/Product/Main/CVP204C.gif

 

What a crazy spaced out look.

 

Joking aside George I had a chance to play one of these (either the CVP204C or the CVP206 can't rightly remember) in the music space at the Seattle downtown library and the Piano sound was very nice.

[moj]

But what bothers me the most is the price.What is inside those things that make them so expensive?

 

WERSI

 

This is from the translated German site (with a few untranslated words). I added the bold text gathered from a different page on the site.

I'm not sure if it's worth 5k, but it has alot under the hood.

 

IKARUS X-1

 

Keyboard/pedal

, easily keyboard with dynamics and after Touch weights 76 keys; Connection type for 13/17/25 key pedal, 96 voice polyphony

Housing

Sturdy, durable aluminum housing with light wood side cheeks

 

Display

Tiltable LCD TFT color display, 8,4' ' VGA fully graphics 480x600, Touch function

 

Control elements

15 real-time volume control as sliding control, tracer with background lighting, Touch display, speed/cData Wheel, Joystick for Pitchbend and modulation, 12 tracers to the sound selection, 12 tracers to the selection of Stylesanwahl, free tracers allocation with in each case 5 levels á 45 sounds, Styles, Realdrums, Waves, MIDI files, MP3-Files per key, 6 freely programmable tracers for sound effects

 

Toner generation

ASS Advanced Sampled sound, LWSS Long Wave Samples sound, Akai S1000-3000 complete, CODEC 24Bit

 

VST instruments

Native Instruments B4 - in a special version with operation over Zugrigel optionally

 

Tone qualities

312 Long Wave sound, 128 Long Wave sound of GM, up to 128 tone qualities additionally to invite (with memory expansion *), AKAI S1000/3000 compatibly, 128 user sound over integrated sound editor

 

Course latch plate organ

OAS Drawbars, with 9 foot situations for the right hand (16'-8'-51/3'-4'-22/3'-2'-11/3'-13/5'-1 ') and 7 foot situations for the left hand (8'-4'-22/3'-2'-11/3'-13/5'-1 '), rotor simulation programmable into rotor speeds fast/slowly separately for horn and bass, brake duration separately for horn and bass, positioning of the microphones, Scannervibrato (c1, C2, C3, V1, V2, V3), Monophone Percussion, Keyclick, Equalizer, Distortion, Attack, Sustain, simulation of signs of aging of the clay/tone wheels, 128 own attitudes storable

 

Manual Layer

Right hand 3 Layer, links 2 Layer to hand to/disconnectible, pedal 1 Layer

 

Play assistance

WERSIChord with 14 types, Solovoice, LM Hold, Easy Harmony, Touch speed, semiautomaton, car variation, car Fill, car bass, Fade In/Out, Sync start, Sync. starting/stop,

 

Fussschweller/sch older

Fussschweller * with two lateral keys, Schwellerfunktion per Layer adjustable, lateral tracers freely programmable also over 30 functions

 

Drumsets

20 Drumsets in GM/XG allocation, 64 storage locations for own Drumsets, integrieter Drumsound editor

 

Styles

194 Styles with 4 variations, 2 Intros, 2 endings, 2 Fill's

 

Realdrums

50 Realdrums with 4 variations, 2 Intros, 2 endings, 2 Fill's

 

MIDI sequencer

Real-time 16-Spur MIDI sequencer with up to 16 automatic controllers freely provably, MIDI editor, announcement of Karaoketexten

 

CD Player

CD Player for playing "normal" music CD's with starting/stop, title selection, advance and return, inviting titles into the OAS data base

 

Wave, MP3, video

Waveplayer, MP3 Player, video Player

 

Recording

MIDI Recording and Harddiskrecording inclusive singing, own CD burning *

 

Karaoke

Announcement of text in the display with appropriate MIDI files

 

OAS One Touch Play (total Presets)

2000 Presets, 1500 can be provided with storing of tone qualities and all selector attitudes, Styles, Realdrums, MIDI files, Waves, MP3, resound, to mixers, on a key (One Touch Play)

 

Effects

Studio resounding, Stereo Chorus, Stereo echo with Temposync. all effects 50-fach storable

 

Digital mixer

2 audio entrances into stereo with EQ and effects, 1 microphone entrance with parametric EQ and effects, 6 exits (3xStereo)mit EQ, FR-dif * digitally In/Out optionally, audio entrances for native B4 (VST) over ASIO, all attitudes in 50 freely programmable Presets storable

 

OAS data base

Administration of tone qualities, up to 2000 Styles, up to 500 Realdrums, up to 5000 MIDI files, up to 500 Waves, up to 500 MP3-Files, up to 500 videos, 2000 Presets (conditions March 2004)

 

Editors

Editmoeglichkeiten for: To sound, Styles, Realdrums ACC, MIDI files, Drum sound, Presets, resound. Chorus, echo, mixer, mixer output

 

MIDI

two independent MIDI interfaces, in each case also IN, and TRHU, extensive adjustment possibilities with MIDI IN filters, new free MIDI OUT Routing for external bungee cords or instruments under Windows out

 

PC hardware, software

WINDOWS XP with Athlon processor, 512 MT RAM, with all gaenigen PC of connections (printer, USB2, COM, mouse, keyboard, Ethernet 100MB)

 

Memory

Non removable disk/memory 40 (80 *) gigabyte non removable disk, 512MB (1.5GB *) RAM memory

 

Drive assemblies

CD Rome, floppy disk drive 1.44 MT, optional: DVD/CD Rome drive assembly *, Dvd/cd rewriter combination drive assemblies *

 

Vocal Harmonizer *

Produces mehrstimmigen singing over an attached microphone, attitudes; Duett, Trio, oktave, Stimmverfremdung, etc.. Harmony control over Midi sequences possible.

 

Amplifier, loudspeaker

2 x 30 Watts Stereo system, broadband bass with Kalottenhochtoener, Subwoofer * optionally

 

Mass/weight

Width: 110 cm, depth: 46.5 cm, height: 16 cm - Weight: 20 kg (inclusive integrated loudspeakers)

 

 

* Optionally against additional price. OAS instruments are offered with different equipments and options. Obligatorily for this is the respectively valid price list. We keep technical changes without preceding averaging forwards to accomplish itself. Please you inform sch before purchase of the instrument about the current conditions.

[keynote]

Originally posted by Dreamer:

If someone has something against the use of pre-programmed styles in a keyboard, just think of how many musicians use pre-programmed loops as a rhytm foundation for their tracks.

What a great analogy Andrea!

 

Yes, the principles regarding both methods i.e. 'loops' or 'styles' are basically the same.

 

Arrangers are getting better and better all the time and some of the top of the line Arrangers are right up there in the sound quality department (that is, comparing apples to apples i.e. - the preset internal sounds) to traditional Workstation keyboards and of course much 'better' IMO than Workstations of just a few years ago.

 

There is a mindset in the minds of a lot of Workstation owners who have come to the conclusion (whether on their own or from accepting the word of others - passed down over the years) that Arrangers are essentially Toys made for school children or perhaps the part time home hobbyist and NOT for the serious musician.

 

I agree that up until several years ago the above statements were true. But sooooo much has been changed and improved in just a short period of time IMO. For example as Andrea pointed out, the Motif ES series keyboards took the Mega Voices from those already on the Tyros not vice versa.

 

I believe the same is true regarding the Sweet!, Live! and Cool! voices on the Tyros. The Motif/ ES were given the already established Live!, Sweet! and Cool! Voices on the Tyros and 'other' Yamaha Arrangers NOT vice versa from what I understand.

 

So if you will bear with me I will try and paint a picture of not only the possible benefits of what an Arranger can be and do for the serious musician but also those same benefits translated into actual songs (compositions) at the end of this post.

 

As mentioned, some Professional Arrangers have Samplers in them comparable to Samplers in high end Workstations; most notably the Korg Pa1X/PRO Arrangers. The only downside is the Samplers in Arrangers don't have near the RAM capacity as many of todays Workstations do.

 

The real benefit of Arrangers, are their ability, with the help of the keyboardist of course in jotting down and getting ideas for songs, compositions, beats, chord progressions, etc. in a relatively short amount of time. Because of the 'accompaniment' feature of Arrangers you can get an idea of what a song, beat, etc. will sound like in a 'live band' context without having to first meet and practice with a Band! Because YOU ARE the Band so to speak. Talk about convenience!! All in the comfort of your home or even on the road, whatever the case may be.

 

But it doesn't stop there because many of todays high end Arrangers are optimally suited for Live performance purposes. Not only in a 'One Man Band' type situation but also when playing with other members of any given Band. Only when you're playing with a Band you wouldn't be using the accompaniment features of the Arranger of course; you would simply turn the accompaniment feature off. And you would still have all the high quality onboard sounds to use and play.

 

Many Arrangers also have what are called 'Registrations' as many of you are familiar with already. They are basically what 'Performances' are to the Motif/ES Workstation keyboards. The 'Registrations' make it extremely easy and suited for Live play. And you can use them with or without accompaniment.

And the Tyros is probably the best suited Arranger on the market right now for Live play purposes IMO. The Tyros is optimally layed out for Live play.

 

So please don't be too hard on us Arranger keyboard players. As you all realize, todays Workstations are incorporating accompaniment features in them, although still only on a limited basis. For example; the Yamaha Motif ES Arpeggiators now have Chord recognition. The Roland Fantom S/X's and FP series have basic rhythm accompaniment as do the Motif ES's. Need I say more? IMO Workstations will continue to evolve with more and more accompaniment type features in them. Will we see the melding of Arrangers and Workstations over time? I think so, but there will always be the need for the non-accompaniment type Keyboard/Digital Piano, etc. So you traditionalists and Workstation loyalists who hate the thought of 'arrangers' are safe for the time being and even into the distant future. But you never know. Many of you may one day wake up and smell the roses and give up your false 'impressions' and 'ideologies' of arranger keyboards and take the plunge and get one.

Much like what Jim Aiken of Keyboard Mag did.

 

Btw, I too have owned traditional Workstations and I want to get another one in the not too distant future. So don't think I am against traditional Workstations, okay?

 

Now for the songs. Here are two songs I very recently made on my Yamaha Tyros. They were all done in realtime, i.e. Live. On the second one I did add a few looped beats (Multipads) to it after the initial recording. >> Btw, while playing the songs live on the keyboard I was recording everything to the Tyros' internal Sequencer using what is called the 'Quick Recording' feature. On both songs I am using custom Registrations that I compiled for the different Voices [instruments] which I can easily switch from one to the other when needed.

 

The first song is slow and Ballad type while the second song is quick and lively. This will give you an idea of what an Arranger keyboard sounds like in accompaniment mode. I am playing all of the Lead voices. In the first song I'm playing a Classical Flute and a Sweet! Flugel Horn with layered Live! Strings in the right hand whilst playing a Cool! Galaxy Elec. Piano and Live! Mmh Choral voices in the left hand throughout different stages of the song. In the second song I'm playing a Live! Dyno Steel Guitar, a 60's Clean Guitar, a Sweet! Trumpet, layered with a Rotary Organ, and a Gospel Organ > (at different points) in the right hand; and in the Left hand a Jazz Draw Organ Flutes Voice.

 

The first song is not an original but the second song is. Here are:

 

As The Deer

 

You Alone