Electro Rhodes vs. Scarbee Rhodes

[eric]

If you are going for an easy gig setup, I say go for the Electro or another hardware synth. The Scarbee seems like it would excel in a home studio environment, but the thought of carrying a PC and MIDI-ing up to it for a live gig is pretty worrisome. Plus, the Electro also gives you killer Hammond, Rhodes, Clav and other sounds in a small package that is gig ready.

 

Regards,

Eric

[Geoff Grace]

Hi Thomas,

 

Could you please read my post again? I sincerely meant to welcome you to this forum, and I honestly hope you'll stick around.

 

Originally posted by Scarbee:

Hi Geoff:

 

Ok. Sorry if I crossed the line

Please note that I wrote, "I'm not suggesting that you've crossed a line."

 

I will keep a low profile from now on...

I think it would be a shame if you did. As I mentioned above, "we value our product representatives who hang out here ... it's good to see you here. I hope that you'll find The Keyboard Corner to be both an informative an fun place. Please feel free to participate in any topics of interest."

 

I understand your concern that the maker of a competing product commented negatively on an aspect of your product. And while I think that many people here would have preferred for Busch to have initially acknowledged that he offered a competing product, the flip side of that coin is that Busch has kept such a low profile about what he does that few of us were aware of it.

 

Originally posted by burningbusch:

If you know this forum and my postings you know that I NEVER try to push it on people here and NEVER reference it.

My experiences with Busch bear the above to be true.

 

When it comes to objective things, I've learned to trust Busch's knowledge and intelligence. However, when it comes to subjective things, I've noticed that sometimes we agree; and other times, we don't.

 

While I respect Busch, I wouldn't rely on his nor on anyone's subjective opinion about the "ideal" Rhodes sound. Like many musical things, that's entirely a matter of taste. While I believe he is being honest in his opinion about the bark, I'll decide for myself whether or not I share that opinion. I think most people here would do the same.

 

Does Busch's creation of a competing product make him biased? Perhaps so. However, it's a given that everyone is biased based on taste alone. Therefore, any additional biases he might have only lead one back to the initial conclusion that Busch has given an opinion on which one may, or may not, agree.

 

As I mentioned above, "It's been my impression that your products are generally well regarded by forum members here." I've also read glowing reviews of your work. I don't think that your reputation can be easily undermined by a negative comment from Busch, nor from any of us. So, please don't feel threatened or disliked. Why not relax, give us a chance, and allow us to do the same with you?

 

In other words, please stick around.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[hermanjoe]

Fisheye,

 

Great explanation. Seems reasonable enough to me. As far as hardware goes, I'm pretty happy with the way myu Promega does the rhodes sound. It uses physical modeling. But good to know it wouldn't be too hard to add a computer sample.

 

Thanks

[Mr.Scarbee]

Originally posted by Geoff Grace:

Hi Thomas,

 

So, please don't feel threatened or disliked. Why not relax, give us a chance, and allow us to do the same with you?

 

In other words, please stick around.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

I will - thanks Geoff for taking time to explain I see your point and it's solid. And concerning Busch - let's be friends

 

Ps. I have upload a bunch of new rsp73 demos. In "Scarlatin", written and performed by guitar wizard Carlos Eduardo Arellano, the Rhodes sound is played through amp (VKFX) and sound is very "latin" and different. And he plays a cool solo - on guitar, RSP73 and bass!

 

cheers

[orangefunk]

Originally posted by Mr.Scarbee:

 

Ps. I have upload a bunch of new rsp73 demos. In "Scarlatin", written and performed by guitar wizard Carlos Eduardo Arellano, the Rhodes sound is played through amp (VKFX) and sound is very "latin" and different. And he plays a cool solo - on guitar, RSP73 and bass!

 

cheers

Great track! Just like all my 1970s brazilian jazz fusion LPs!! A little bit Airto, Marcos Resende.. etc..

 

Nice rhodes solo too!

[Jazz+]

What about "Vintage 74" in the Motif/S90 ?

[orangefunk]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

P.S.

This Yamaha P90 I am using with an Electro rack mount seems to have a pretty dull velocity scale.

Yes the Yamaha P range all suffer from this..

 

You might think about getting this..

 

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodvel.htm

[Superbobus]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

Oh man, that Scarbee Rhodes sounds fine on "A Night In Nice" ("Sound is "Direct" with Logic Reverb, EQ (bas cut) and Tremolo added.)

 

Will I ever be able to gig with a great Rhodes clone like the Scarbee wthout having to carry a laptop. I do a lot of gigs outdoors at night and I can't see having laptop running out there. Is something coming in the future that will allow me to take large samples out on gigs without carrying a computer?

Why not? I do that all the time. A Rhodes is much heavier and can break down too. The only thing I don't like is that my controller doesn't have a good keyboard action.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by Mr.Scarbee:

And concerning Busch - let's be friends

 

cheers

Sounds good. You have a great product. Best of luck with with it.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

You can listen to Bill Evans Rhodes sound on "Comrade Conrad" and "Waltz for Debby" on the album called "Bill Evans Album" on Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0 00002AE9/qid=1092516697/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/103-8621055-9294254?v=glance&s=music

 

It sounds similar to the Electro. Notice the attack is not pronounced or percussive and that there is a lot of sustain and body after each note. It has an upfront midrange-y mono sound that enables slurred jazz phrasing, the notes can slur and flow into each other.

 

I find the Yamaha "Rhodes" tend to articulate and pronounce the attack of each note, which makes it good for funk phrasing: crisp and snappy, but it seems harder to slur lines for straight ahead jazz on the Yamaha than the real thing.

Notice the release dates of this album and the other Bill Evans album you mentioned, 1970 & 1971. The Rhodes went through three major periods, at least in my way of thinking.

 

Early-up to 1970/1971 All wood action and hammers, raymac tines, earliest ones had felt hammers, almost all were suitcase models. Raymac tines are very soft and fat, pronounced mid-range--sound like they bark throughout the range of the piano.

 

Mid-1971 to mid 1975 Action/hammers were wood but the shank is plastic. Fat, soft times but not as much as the Raymacs. Both stage and suitcase models used. Neophrene tipped hammers.

 

Late-mid 1975 - 1985 Action changed significantly to the modular action. Hammers were all plastic. Tines were thinner and harder (less prone to breakage but the tone changed as a result).

 

In listening to Funkallero you can immediately hear that it's an early (or possibly mid, but I doubt it) model. You hear very little tine and the pronounced mid-range. It also sounds like it was recorded from the suitcase speakers vs. direct. Again, with Funkallero I am struck by how sad the instrument sounds. I've heard this on some of Herbie's earlier recordings as well. Even when they play things in major key, there is this certain sad quality to it. My theory is that you're hearing the fat, soft raymacs go slightly up and then bend down in pitch.

 

I know of no sampling (samples, ROMplers, etc.) of a early model raymac Rhodes. Even the mid years are hard to find. You will see the designation Mark I and Mark II, but that doesn't tell you anything as a 1977 Mark I and a 1980 Mark II, for example, are essentially the same piano. The vast majority of the samples were made from late period Rhodes pianos.

 

This is not to say a late model can't be made to sound more like a mid model with the right EQ.

 

Also, take an inventory sometime of the classic Rhodes albums from Herbie, George, Chick, Zawinul, Evans, and you will find that a huge number of them were 1975 and earlier--all early and mid period Rhodes.

 

Busch.

[fisheye]

Yep. I hope mr. Scarbee will ever sample a pre '75 rhodes with the detail he sampled the '76 model.

 

I'm very fond of the sound on some Dutch records using early rhodes and also my own '73 one.

But let's not forget every rhodes sounds different and the sound on those old records is also effected by the preamp and other studio thingies.

[Jazz+]

Great post Busch, thank you. I now know a lot more about the various Rhodes sounds.

 

What are your thoughts on the Electro sound?

[Jazz+]

Here's a copy of a post by Roald on HC. It's his opinions on the four Rhodes in the Nord Electro:

 

08-16-2004

quote:

______________________-

"in a nutshell:

 

- I think the 'herbie style rhodes' was included with the NE2. That is Rhodes2 if I am correct. Has the 'ideal'/loud tone setting. This is the one I like most

 

- I also like the no. 1 Rhodes. It is more sweet and bell like, not as funky but good for ballads.

 

- don't like Chicks sound (as in Rhodes 3) and the Mk5 samples no.4) don't sound very good to me. Too bright and too bell like

 

- My own Rhodes sounds like something in between Rhodes1 and 2, lower tones sound better, less muddy, on the Nord, everything else sounds better on the real thing...because it is real! I just love the mechanical artifacts, and the fullness and warmth of the real thing. There is no comparison."

[JeffLearman]

I really appreciate hearing what's in the mind of the guy doing the samples -- thanks, Scarbee

 

I gotta get a better rhodes sound -- when playing live and having too much fun, I keep breaking keys on my MR76 trying to get that baby to bark more, like my 1976 Mark I Stage 73 did (still does, when I pull it out of the attic).

 

I still haven't found the rhodes sound I get from my old beast. A lot like the one in "Scar of a Flying Bee" Scarbee demo: very bright and bell-like when played light, with a nice full bark when dug into. I have the pickups set quite close to the tines which I think helps on that score. And I always added light stereo chorus from my Roland RE301 chorus echo to project an image.

 

I once got fairly close to the sound (though not the feel) by sampling my rhodes played very lightly for the bell and bass, and using a Roland Super JX10 synth sound with a little ring mod, more velocity sensitive in volume than the samples, to kick in as bark when I dug in. It sounded pretty great for 1985 technology, but I keep waiting to find something better -- I think the Scarbee might be it. Then again, we always look in vain to duplicate any particular instrument's whole personality.

 

Now to figure out how to run GS and NI B4 together on my PC and easily select between the two from the MR76. (Oh -- plus I gotta find an affordable copy of GigaStudio that runs on W2K ...)

[orangefunk]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

 

I play through a Fatar SL880 and am more than happy with that combo.

 

- it is a great keyboard! "

I actually played Roalds SL880, it didn't feel right with the rhodes sounds IMO, but don't tell him that ;-)

[Jazz+]

I had a Fatar 76 key weighted controller and it didn't go much above 100 or below 30 in the 1-127 velocity scale.

[Mr.Scarbee]

Hi burningbusch:

 

Very interesting reading - I would love to sample a well set up pre-75 Rhodes.

 

regards

[SoundMeister]

I know of no sampling (samples, ROMplers, etc.) of a early model raymac Rhodes. Even the mid years are hard to find. ... The vast majority of the samples were made from late period Rhodes pianos.

Check our *Real Rhodes* collection in S1000, S2000, S5000/6000 and various Kurzweil formats (K2k/VX/VP and K2600/K2500 w/KDFX). It features a 1968 Rhodes, one of which had the original Ray Mac Tines and felt hammer heads. We did a couple of different sample sets with the '68 using different tone bar adjustments.

 

Also included are a 1973, a '76 and a '79 Rhodes. The 79 is a Dyno, which makes a BIG difference in the sound.

 

~Peter Schouten

Pyramid Sound Productions

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by SoundMeister:

I know of no sampling (samples, ROMplers, etc.) of a early model raymac Rhodes. Even the mid years are hard to find. ... The vast majority of the samples were made from late period Rhodes pianos.

Check our *Real Rhodes* collection in S1000, S2000, S5000/6000 and various Kurzweil formats (K2k/VX/VP and K2600/K2500 w/KDFX). It features a 1968 Rhodes, one of which had the original Ray Mac Tines and felt hammer heads. We did a couple of different sample sets with the '68 using different tone bar adjustments.

 

Also included are a 1973, a '76 and a '79 Rhodes. The 79 is a Dyno, which makes a BIG difference in the sound.

 

~Peter Schouten

Pyramid Sound Productions

Very interesting Peter. You have something unique there with the 1968. Sounds like a great collection. I was ready to pick up a 1969 raymac tine Rhodes (neophrene tips) at Ells but took the 1975 Suitcase instead. It was just a personal preference thing.

 

Busch.

[silentman]

Hey there,I am sure that you own 4 rhodes and that you are much older than me,but when I plug my nord rack 2 into a great motherkeyboard like SL-880 A series from Fatar,I play Rhodes,the 88 the short one,the Chick Corea,the Mark V.Everyone of these,is a rhodes,as I hear it in my cds,on Sample cds,and of course not on this full of Effects keyboards,like Motif,Korg,etc.

The Nord is way too expensive because is only doing 7 things.But it is doing them perfect,and when you are trying to run behind perfection,finding disadvantages on a products,just because you don't like red for example,then you have a problem.

Let's face it differently,If you only have a car to transfer on a live gig your setup,what would you prefer?Only to put down the backsheets and put inside your electro with 98% authenticity,or a truck behind your car with 1 ton setup and 100% authenticity and trouble from mechanical and weather conditions problems.

 

Thank you,buy an electro today.

You will stuck,everyone has one.

[Analogaddict]

Originally posted by silentman:

Hey there,I am sure that you own 4 rhodes and that you are much older than me,but when I plug my nord rack 2 into a great motherkeyboard like SL-880 A series from Fatar,I play Rhodes,the 88 the short one,the Chick Corea,the Mark V.Everyone of these,is a rhodes,as I hear it in my cds,on Sample cds,and of course not on this full of Effects keyboards,like Motif,Korg,etc.

Most manufacturers of romplers want to please everybody, and thus don´t put enough into every single sound. A product that puts all of its energy into doing one thing is going to excel at this particular thing, if the people involved are skilled. It all depends on what you need; do you need string sounds? Then don´t get the Electro. Do you want vintage electromechanical sounds? There´s probably nothing better right now.

 

Originally posted by silentman:

The Nord is way too expensive because is only doing 7 things.

Oh my - what does that tell us about a B3 or a grand piano then..?

[flowthrough]

I bought Wizoo's "Magnetica"

 

http://www.wizoo.com/

 

it's on sale in AKAI format for $20 - has some nice B3 sounds in there too. Well worth the price.

 

I'm sure the Scarbee is much better for those in search or the true Rhodes 'Grail' (Magnetica boasts some sounds are a whopping 16 meg- what does that tell you?)- but I must say I found a nice Rhodes on the Magnetica CDrom that I enjoy, and am quite happy with. (I like smooth Rhodes & Distorted Rhodes- no 'plinky' or Dyno attack).

 

For someone like me (who will process the sound), the samples on this CD work well.

 

I have not heard a Scarbee or Pyramid MP3 that matches my taste in Rhodes.

[SoundMeister]

...I never like when a representative of a company speaks negatively about a competing product in public.

It is a little tricky. But since Busch has not actively promoted his own product, I'm not sure whether there is really an competition issue here.

 

Busch must be biased since he make Rhodes sample libraries himself - and is even leaking info that he might want to do some new Rhodes samples.

I can see where one might expect bias in this instance, but it is hard to establish for sure. I personally believe one can make an unbiased, objective and honest judgment even if one has created a similar product. Like if there are musically important differences between "competing" products, it should be possible to point those out without being accused of bias.

 

Actually, I wonder if the notion of "competing" product even applies. If the samples are based on different instruments, there should be room for a variety of products like this. A competitive either/or mind set may not apply. But maybe there is a natural tendency toward monopolies....

...

I own his Giga Rhodes sample library but I would never "review" it on a forum - and comment on it's shortcomings.

Well, I'd suspect bias unless some mention of shortcomings is made.

 

From an end user's perspective, comments on shortcomings is not always a bad thing. Such comments give people a chance to explore some possible operational issues. Some players have a naturally light touch. Maybe they need to make an adjustment in velocity sensitivity in order to get up to the bark velocity a little more easily? Just a thought....

 

~Peter Schouten

Pyramid Sound Productions

Real Rhodes for Akai S1000/2000/5000/6000

and Kurzweil K2000/K2VP/K2VX & K2500/2600