sudo Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Hello, After weeks of waiting, here i am in front of a Kurzweil PC1X at a local music store. I was so excited to try it out, so I plugged in some headphones and started to play: most of the sounds are excellent, specially the pianos and orch rom samples. I was hooked and ready to buy it straight away... until i went back to the pianos and tried some keyboard velocity stuff. For some reason, no matter how lightly/softly/slowly i played, the piano sound wouldn't go below a min level - which to my ears still sounded loud. I tried it several times with the same result... I couldn't believe it!!! there was a Yamaha P90 next to it, so i tried the same thing there, and the keyboard/velocity was extremely sensitive, like i would expect. But not on the PC1X ! I tried to change the global keyboard setting from light to hard3 but it did not solve this problem.. I really like everything else about this keyboard and this problem is the only thing holding me from buying it so i really need to know if this is a fixed setting or if it can be changed (i.e. making it more sensitive to velocity). Any suggestions ? Thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 You experienced what caused me to sell my Kurzweil PC2X and get a Yamaha P series digital piano. The Kurzweils, with their Fatar actions, have a narrow window of dynamics. The Yamaha P series is far more exspressive. There is no contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 With the advice of Mike Martin, I tried every possible Touch Setting in combination with every velocity scale on my Kurzweil PC2X. It never allowed a fully satisfying dynamic (velocity) range. On the other hand, my Yamaha P120 allows a very wide dynamic range. I feel I can play every point of velocity with ease, it doesn't feel like its leaping in incriments of 10 like on the other brands. The Kurzweil never allowed me to play my left hand at ppp and my right hand at fff, like I can do on the Yamaha P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmplifierExperts Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 This was one reason why I chose to get all rack versions of everything, so I can use my favorite keyboard controller--the Roland A-80--and get the kind of control that I like. I never heard good words about the Kurzweil keybeds, so I shyed away from those and went the modular route. It's much more flexible and if your tastes change, you don't have to disgard anything but the specific gear you've outgrown. Best Regards, Mark A. Weiss, P.E. www.ampexperts.com - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guestuserguestuser.com Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Originally posted by Mark Weiss: This was one reason why I chose to get all rack versions of everything, so I can use my favorite keyboard controller--the Roland A-80--and get the kind of control that I like. I never heard good words about the Kurzweil keybeds, so I shyed away from those and went the modular route. It's much more flexible and if your tastes change, you don't have to disgard anything but the specific gear you've outgrown.It's a good plan in theory, but there are drawbacks - for one, that's an extra peice of gear take to gigs (the rack), and also, not everything comes in a rack form. P-series Yamaha pianos, for instance. But as a long-time A-50 owner, I can understand why you like the A-80. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sudo Posted November 23, 2003 Author Share Posted November 23, 2003 Thanks for all replies. Petros, initially i thought that the keybed is the problem, but i passed by the music store again and tried one thing: I connected the PC1X's MIDI out to a Korg (happened to be the closest) and surprisingly enough, playing on the PC1X resulted in full velocity/expressiveness control... as good as any other board!! Is it possible that it's a sample/patch limitation rather than a keybed one? Does this make sense ? (I didn't have time to MIDI into the PC1X and play another keyboard to confirm this, but i will try it when i have a chance). Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyoctave Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 I too am looking at the PC1X. If there is a sample or dynamic problem, could it be remedied by a OS upgrade? I also wonder if Kurzweil will come out with a PC1 (non-weighted) version? George..........any comments? Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK-1 + Ventilator, Korg Triton. 2 JBL Eon 510's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sudo Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 In case someone is still interested in the follow up to this topic... I recently tried to MIDI another keyboard into the PC1X to try its velocity response, and as i suspected earlier, i experienced the same limitation (my first post explains it). I guess this confirms that the PC1X's velocity/dynamic range problem is not due to its Fatar keybed, but in fact, it's a limitation in its sound/samples generation process... Having said that, I must say that the PC1X still represents a good value. If you primarily need a digital Piano then other keys might be a better option (like the P90) but as a master controller, I can't think of another keyboard with similar controller functions at this price range. Plus the internal sounds can still be used perfectly well in a recording mix or when playing with a band, and when you need the full dynamic range (specially for Pianos) just connect it to an external module or computer and you're ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 It's a problem with both, the Kurzweil piano engineering and the Fatar engineering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geosync Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 Until I can get my hands on a PC1 X , I can't give an honest reply. I have been able to adjust PC2Xs to the satisfaction of many demanding pianist. Believe it or not, ech one has been a very intercative, custom session. No one setting has worked. I wish the settings were more obvious so that a casual user could "dial in" their desired response easier. Billy Powell was the most challanging PC2X setup I've had. He has played a Midi Steinway for years and was very picky about touch. I was able to use a combination of touch curves and offsets that would allow him to play the clasical pieces as well as the heavy handed rock. Billy Powell buying the PC2X at HOB Hollywood Until I program a PC1X, I can't confirm that it's the same. I would imagine it can be. Take Care, George Hamilton Yamaha US Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle ggurl Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 George, this is very interesting ... do you have plans to put any general guidelines for modifying velocity settings on your site? When you program these setting for clients, are they global settings or unique to just eh piano sounds in either MIDI Setups or user-stored sounds? Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geosync Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 The settings are global. I tend to forget exactly how it's done each time. The way I like to approach it is to adjust while the artist plays. It stays in proper context that way. I begin by careful listening to their style and what I hear (or don't hear coming from the music. I then ask if what I am hearing is the same as what they "feel". then the course adjustment begin. I first determine the dynamic range I hear. Does the artist use all of it? usually they favor the top or bottom 2/3 of the range. So i may make the dynamic range 125-135% and listen again. If the overall performance inproves I'll leave it. Next does ppp or fff seem too extreme? If the overall engery has dropped, I will add a velocity offset usually 12 to 25 never more than +25. If the dynamic changes make the sound to aggressive then I may use a - offset. These setting will also change where the velocity layers switch, so it's trial and error until it's locked in. Once the template is done for 5 or 6 sounds types you should be able to make Setup Templates that will give your sound more "Personal" Expression I hope I haven't forgotten anything. It's been a while since I did the last one. Take Care, George Hamilton Yamaha US Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle ggurl Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Cool George, thanks! I will definitely play around with this concept and use these guidelines as my starting point. Cheers, gg Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I spent weeks, with some help from Mike Martin, trying to adjust my PC2X to my satisfaction and could never get it to be satisfactory. I ended up selling it. The Yamaha P series pianos don't need "adjusting." Their dynamic range and touch response is already ideal, especialy the P250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle ggurl Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Originally posted by petros: I spent weeks, with some help from Mike Martin, trying to adjust my PC2X to my satisfaction and could never get it to be satisfactory. I ended up selling it. The Yamaha P series pianos don't need "adjusting." Their dynamic range and touch response is already ideal, especialy the P250.... which is fine if you don't want the other sounds the Kurzweil has ... alas, I didn't want a PC2R attached to a P90 or whatever (I had a PC2R, too much hassle with MIDI and layering, my other keyboard, performance-controller programming, etc.) ... too much complexity for me on the gig. Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Ah, but to get those "other" sounds with a Kurzweil PC2X you must be willing to accept playing piano solos that come off almost as if they are compressed and have an almost dull boxy piano sound that Kurzweil known for. Also, you get Rhodes patches with high notes that sound like digital squeaks. Piano and Rhodes are my main "voices" that I speak with and I can't compromise them to get other sounds, that's why I sold my PC2X and got a Yamaha P250 for studio and P90 for portable/live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle ggurl Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Apparently they've fixed some problem with the Rhodes patches in the latest OS. I guess I have a later OS because I didn't notice a problem, but then I don't use the PC2 for Rhodes anyway; I use the Nord for that. I do use the strings, pads, horns, splits, layers, the 4 zones, etc. So that's why I need it. I also use the piano, and since I play in band situation, I dunno, it works for me. I can't say it'd be my go-to instrument if I did a lot of solo piano stuff. If I was focused on piano like that I'm sure I'd get a P90 because they are nice. Original Latin Jazz CD Baby "I am not certain how original my contribution to music is as I am obviously an amateur." Patti Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salyphus Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Found this in a review of the PC2X on HC: ---- Expanding the Dynamic Range on Kurzweil's PC2X Piano: Here is a setup to expand the reaction range of dynamics from soft to loud on the PC2X piano patches: Velocity Scale: 100% Velocity Offset: 0 Velocity Curve: "Sin+" Global "Touch Setting": 7 Hard 3 (to compensate for the "light" Sin+ curve) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Those were my settings "reaction range" settings. They improved the response somewhat, but not enough for me to keep playing a PC2X. The piano samples still had a compressed and dull quality to their nature. I encourage anybody who plays Kurzweil digital pianos to go and play the "MELLOW PIANO" patch on the Yamaha P250 and see if you can notice what I am talking about in regards to dynamic touch response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salyphus Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I'm looking at buying a used PC2X, mainly for use as a master controller. I take it this is an issue with the internal sounds and not external modules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petros Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Kurzweils use Fatar actions which do not transit the most accurate touch reaction responses possible. I beleive Yamaha and Roland high end weighted actions respond with more acurate velocity scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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