bleen Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Woohoo!! I just set it up late last night and went through the "red" bank of sounds. I'm usually not one to listen to presets much, but I figured, why not, let's see what this puppy delivers. I was REALLY surprised to see how many of the sounds didn't use the internal effects - they didn't need to! I'll start diving in further tonight and tomorrow and doing some programming and then I'll report back. It'll be really interesting because I'm beta-testing a new VA softsynth, so I'm hearing some of the coolest hard- and software simutaneously... recording/mix guy don gunn.com myspace.com/dongunnmusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Originally posted by bleen: I was REALLY surprised to see how many of the sounds didn't use the internal effects - they didn't need to! With the exception of the distortion, none of my programs use any fx at all - I didn't feel it was in the spirit of the sounds I was trying to create to use them. When I wanted "effects", I detuned oscillators, used LFO's and the filters, etc. My best program (from a name point of view) is called "Flatulent Duck". dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliengroover Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 I can't say how much I love this piece. The VA I had on my list to purchase was the MS2000. Friday that changed when I heard the Ion. Peace If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking 'til you do suck seed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski 1642606170 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Dave, Ken Hughes said at least two or three things in his recent Ion review that I was reminded of when reading this thread. - Ken talked about the fact that the Ion seemed to be aimed at analog *realism*. - General comparisons to the Virus/Nord Lead/etc. were made. Ken said that the others' sound is "not quite analog" (but cool in their own right), and that the Ion comes closer to the "real thing". - He said that the Ion is the VA for people that hate VA's. Now, I may be going out on a limb, here, but I'd have to guess that your wealth of "effectless" presets had a LOT to do with Ken's impressions. Ken's glowing review will in turn no doubt result in many more sales for Alesis. Following this train of thought to its logical conclusion, it seems that Alesis may owe you a bit more... shall we say, "compensation"! Ski www.ex5tech.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski 1642606170 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Oh, jeez... bleen, I forgot - congrats on your new toy! Ski www.ex5tech.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdm71 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 I'd like to consider it but, any chance they will ever address more Polyphony in a future os update??? Anyone ever notice any voices cutting out with some of the more sustaining sounds?? Dave - How hard would that be to give the ION more voices in an OS?? I know Clavia did it with their NL3 and it was a free update. THANKS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by tdm71: I'd like to consider it but, any chance they will ever address more Polyphony in a future os update??? Anyone ever notice any voices cutting out with some of the more sustaining sounds?? Two points: 1) Jupiter-8. Eight voices, killer synth. 2) Ion sells for $799 - get two! dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeebus Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by tdm71: I'd like to consider it but, any chance they will ever address more Polyphony in a future os update??? Anyone ever notice any voices cutting out with some of the more sustaining sounds?? Dave - How hard would that be to give the ION more voices in an OS?? I know Clavia did it with their NL3 and it was a free update. THANKSThe poor poly is definitely one of the things holding me back. In the year 2003 every VA should have sufficient polyphony. $799-899 for a synth keyboard without aftertouch and with only 8 digital voices? Welcome back to the year 1986. And why release velocity but no aftertouch? WTF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by Ski · EX5Tech ·: Now, I may be going out on a limb, here, but I'd have to guess that your wealth of "effectless" presets had a LOT to do with Ken's impressions. Ken's glowing review will in turn no doubt result in many more sales for Alesis. Following this train of thought to its logical conclusion, it seems that Alesis may owe you a bit more... shall we say, "compensation"! While I appreciate the kudos, the Ion would be a great piece with or without my presets - I only did 64 programs, and not all of them got used. It's really actually a great synth. Most of the programs that I've heard have impressed me. Everyone who programmed it did a great job, IMO! dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by The Jeeebus: The poor poly is definitely one of the things holding me back. In the year 2003 every VA should have sufficient polyphony. $799-899 for a synth keyboard without aftertouch and with only 8 digital voices? Welcome back to the year 1986. And why release velocity but no aftertouch? WTF? I'm sure Ben can explain this much better, but I'll give it a try... A decision was made with the Ion to use all of the available processing horsepower of the unit on sound, smoothness, and resolution (a.k.a. SOUND) rather than polyphony. If you read the Keyboard review they talk about that in describing the Ion's specs. That high resolution and ultra smoothness of the Ion comes at a price...lower polyphony, or a synth that costs $2500 instead of $799. Need more than 8 voices??? I've got one word for you...multi track. It's the sound, it's the sound, it's the sound...for $799. At $799 if you need more voices, buy two...or three. Any VA in it's price range can't touch it tonally. If you're gonna compare it to a $1500 or $2000 VA, again, compare two Ions and there's your 16 voice polyphony. Don't try comparing apples to oranges (or PCs for that matter) This is not meant to be a Triton, or Motif, or XV-88, or a Virus. It's a kick ass sounding synth with some great bells and whistles (and vocoder) and audio inputs for $799...retail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleen Posted September 1, 2003 Author Share Posted September 1, 2003 The polyphony thing doesn't bother me in the least. I'm not looking to do an entire song using ONLY the Ion - if I use the Ion for a bass sound, a pad, and maybe one other plucky monophonic sound in a mix, I'll have no probs with polyphony. It's all about the arrangement. Besides, as steadyb said, I can always dump a track into Logic as audio, call up the next patch and dump that one in, and so on. The Juno-106 was six voices for twice the money, only one oscillator (plus sub), no external inputs and cost twice what the Ion costs. I'm quite happy with my decision! recording/mix guy don gunn.com myspace.com/dongunnmusic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthmatic Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 A rack or tabletop version would be a step in the right direction. Perhaps a third to half less in price than the key model. I can see lots of THOSE selling. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RABid Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by Synthmatic: A rack or tabletop version would be a step in the right direction. Perhaps a third to half less in price than the key model. I can see lots of THOSE selling.Yes. I'm hoping for a tabletop. Robert This post edited for speling. My Sweetwater Gear Exchange Page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by bleen: The Juno-106 was six voices for twice the money, only one oscillator (plus sub), no external inputs and cost twice what the Ion costs.Actually, with only one or two exceptions, no real analog synth has more than eight voices, and very few of them had three oscillators per voice... We're actually spoiled rotten when it comes to polyphony. Remember, the vast majority of musical instruments (including the human voice) are monophonic, and many folks manage to get some pretty expressive performances out of them. Originally posted by steadyb: Need more than 8 voices??? I've got one word for you...multi track.Bingo. Problem solved. ...BTW brother b - that's two words... dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markyboard Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Actually, with only one or two exceptions, no real analog synth has more than eight voices, Good trivia keyboard question Dave. I got - Andromeda -16 Matrix 12 - 12 OBMX- up to 12 (with 6 voice cards) Any others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by Markyboard: Actually, with only one or two exceptions, no real analog synth has more than eight voices, Good trivia keyboard question Dave. I got - Andromeda -16 Matrix 12 - 12 OBMX- up to 12 (with 6 voice cards) Any others?Well, Morten J will tell you that the Emu Audity counts, because it was supposed to be a 16 voice instrument. I feel that it doesn't, because they only made one. There are also some who contend that the Chroma is a 16 voice instrument, but I don't count that because in order to get 16 voices you could only use one oscillator per voice - the Chroma's normal configuration was two oscillators per voice. I don't know of any others besides the ones you listed; however, to be honest, I had forgotten the OB-Mx. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Fortner Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Well, this is out of the realm of production keyboards, but how about really huge analog modular synths? Anybody ever have one built with, say, 32 oscillators? Or 64? The Ion's sound is pretty bad-ass. Tried one a little bit at dB's place, and another one over at West L.A. Music. If I don't get one it'll be because I'm saving my pennies for an Andromeda. This'll only happen if patience wins out... Stephen Fortner Principal, Fortner Media Former Editor in Chief, Keyboard Magazine Digital Piano Consultant, Piano Buyer Magazine Industry affiliations: Antares, Arturia, Giles Communications, MS Media, Polyverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markyboard Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 I don't know of any others besides the ones you listed; however, to be honest, I had forgotten the OB-Mx. Well now I'm searching but couldnt find the JX-10. Found it through a a Google search . How about the Roland Super JX-10/MKS-70 with 12 voices? Does this count if it uses DCO's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by Dave Bryce: ...BTW brother b - that's two words... dBOh yeah...well I've got two words for you...(and it's not cheesesteak) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdm71 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by steadyb: If you read the Keyboard review they talk about that in describing the Ion's specs. That high resolution and ultra smoothness of the Ion comes at a price...lower polyphony, or a synth that costs $2500 instead of $799. Need more than 8 voices??? I've got one word for you...multi track. It's the sound, it's the sound, it's the sound...for $799. .[/QB]Would increasing the polyphony to say at least 12 really increase the price three fold??? How is it that other VA manufactures (excellent sounding ones too I might add etc.. Nord, Virus...) can provide increased polyphony in free OS updates then? Also, my polyphony concerns center around not multi track arrangements but say a 4 note, sustaining pad like chord. Even two or three IONS can help out that situation. Forgive me if this is a dumb question but, when you assign more than one osc to a voice doesn't that cut your polyphony in half?? THANKS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by tdm71: Forgive me if this is a dumb question but, when you assign more than one osc to a voice doesn't that cut your polyphony in half?? THANKSNot a dumb question, and, in the case of the Ion...no. You have 8, 3 oscillator notes of polyphony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by tdm71: Would increasing the polyphony to say at least 12 really increase the price three fold??? I'm not sure, but increasing the polyphony to 16 will only increase the price twofold. (get 2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeebus Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by tdm71: How is it that other VA manufactures (excellent sounding ones too I might add etc.. Nord, Virus...) can provide increased polyphony in free OS updates then? Indeed. 8 poly is quite ridiculous in this day and age. And we can't compare the poly to that on an analog synth, because it's NOT an analog synth. My other big criticism has to do with the aliasing that can be clearly heard on some of the patches. Alesis stated that the Ion has much less aliasing than the Virus. This is not true, it's right the other way. In a direct comparison to the Virus the Ion produces much more aliasing. Why is Alesis stating that they have innovated the analog modeling oscillators, while they don't even match the existing standard? It simply does not sound like a processor power monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Also, if we're comparing similar products lets talk about the Virus KC which has a keyboard. Virus KC - MSRP $2595 Nord Lead 3 - MSRP $2399 Waldorf Q 16 Voice - MSRP $2995 Waldorf Q 32 Voice - MSRP $3495 Ion - MSRP $799 If it's more than THREE TIMES THE PRICE, it better have more polyphony...and then some. You really must have some long standing gripe with Alesis, because you insist on making irrelevant comparisons to back up your points against the Ion. What's the problem, did you once have an ADAT that didn't get repaired quickly enough or what??? If you're going to compare the Virus to the Ion, please show us an Access "Virus" synth, with a keyboard, that is $799, and sounds as good or better. Otherwise, your biased rants have no credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeebus Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 My rants do indeed have credibility. from Zzounds Ion product description. Driven by Alesis' proprietary 500 MIPS sound engine - delivering up to 5x the processing power of modeling synths which cost hundreds more - the Ion packs eight voices of smooth, high-bandwidth analog-style punch If Alesis is going to compare the Ion to synths that cost hundreds more for marketing purposes, than I am certainly entitled to for comparison purposes, and those comparisons are definitely not irrelevant. Especially when Alesis is toting the processing power and going on about it being dedicated completely to sound quality rather than poly as justification for low polyphony. I have every right to compare it to the Virus and criticize the sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeebus Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Alesis says extraordinary precisionvoid of any undesirable digital artifactsand a very analog sound throughout the entire frequency range. This is false. There ARE undesirable digital artifacts. Unless Alesis believes that upper-register aliasing is a desirable quality to have in a synthesizer, this simply is not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steadyb Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdm71 Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 Originally posted by The Jeeebus: Alesis says extraordinary precisionvoid of any undesirable digital artifactsand a very analog sound throughout the entire frequency range. This is false. There ARE undesirable digital artifacts. Unless Alesis believes that upper-register aliasing is a desirable quality to have in a synthesizer, this simply is not true.Is this really a problem that has been detected or someone's opinion?? Has more than one person noticed this aliasing or has it been reported in any of the reviews?? Also, I had some other questions that for some reason didn't get addressed: How is it that other VA manufactures (excellent sounding ones too I might add etc.. Nord, Virus...) can provide increased polyphony in free OS updates then? Also, my polyphony concerns center around not multi track arrangements but say a 4 note, sustaining pad like chord. Even two or three IONS can't help out that situation. So saying "buy two" really only pertains to those people who need to multi track 8 voice parts or less one at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeebus Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 It is a problem, and others have noticed it not just me. If a synth's marketing blurb proclaims it's sound to be of extraordinary smoothness and resolution, and void of digital aliasing, they had damn well better deliver, or be criticized for not doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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