Industry Types: Why So Many Preset Synth Patches?

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by The Jeeebus:

The Triton Studios have a preview feature that lets you play patches without actually loading them into memory. You can go through your unloaded banks, and rather than loading a whole bank, select patches out of each one.

Don't you think it would be easier to be able to just load a whole bank into a staging area?

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by GuestUser:

Originally posted by The Jeeebus:

The Triton Studios have a preview feature that lets you play patches without actually loading them into memory. You can go through your unloaded banks, and rather than loading a whole bank, select patches out of each one.

Don't you think it would be easier to be able to just load a whole bank into a staging area?

I don't see how it could get any easier than it already is..

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by The Jeeebus:

I don't see how it could get any easier than it already is..

When you are using that feature, you are using Disk mode, right? You open a floppy disk, open the PCG, open the Program Bank, scroll down to the patch, and then you can hear it. Is that correct?

 

Which is fine. But if you're in that mode, can you easily switch over to Program mode, like for instance, to compare a sound off the floppy to one in a User bank? Then, when you switch back to Disk mode, are you still at the same place, or do have to again open the floppy, open the PCG, open the Program bank, select the patch, etc.?

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by synthdogg:

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

quote:

---

What other analog/VA synths are available with full access to memory location?

Nord Modular Rack.

Andromeda.

 

dB

Is this true? Ithought only the "user" patches were writable. Aren't the "preset" programs burned in?

---

Yes, they are, but you can reburn them yourself easily. If memory serves, you have to do the whole bank at once, though - it's not the same as just overwriting a user program.

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by GuestUser:

Here's the way I think all synths should have their memory set up:

 

1) Presets in ROM - lots of 'em, well organized, and easy to navigate.

 

2) A 'loading area', or 'staging area', that's used for loading files into. But it can't be saved, and it loses all its memory when you power off.

 

3) A User area for saving User patches.

 

Lots of synths have 1) or 3), but I don't think I've ever seen 2).

Actually, many synths have this. It's called an edit buffer. That's where programs reside whenever you select them - that's why you actually have to go through writing them to memory after you modify them in any way if you want to keep them. Many synths have more than one of them; e.g. the QS series has 18 - one for each MIDI channel, one for Mix (multitimbral setup) parameters, and one for effects parameters.

 

Let's say that you write a custom program (or programs) for a specific sequence. Select and record enable a track in your sequence, put it into record, then do a sysex dump of that specific program (or programs). Then, whenever you play the sequence, the program(s) that you wrote automatically load into the synth's edit buffer(s). It's a short little data burst that usually takes up a quarter to a half of a measure, sometimes less. They're not written/stored anywhere, just loaded into the edit buffer. Even though it may look as though they're in a program slot, if you select another program and then go back to the slot where the sysexed program was, it'll be gone.

 

I do this all the time so A) I don't have to overwrite existing programs, and B) so that specialized programs that were specifically written for specific sequences are always available whenever I want to work on that sequence. Almost all ROM play/autodemo sequences take advantage of this feature as well, so that that the sequence always has the right programs.

 

dB

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Actually, many synths have this. It's called an edit buffer. That's where programs reside whenever you select them - that's why you actually have to go through writing them to memory after you modify them in any way if you want to keep them. Many synths have more than one of them; e.g. the QS series has 18 - one for each MIDI channel, one for Mix (multitimbral setup) parameters, and one for effects parameters.

 

Let's say that you write a custom program (or programs) for a specific sequence. Select and record enable a track in your sequence, put it into record, then do a sysex dump of that specific program (or programs). Then, whenever you play the sequence, the program(s) that you wrote automatically load into the synth's edit buffer(s). It's a short little data burst that usually takes up a quarter to a half of a measure, sometimes less. They're not written/stored anywhere, just loaded into the edit buffer. Even though it may look as though they're in a program slot, if you select another program and then go back to the slot where the sysexed program was, it'll be gone.

 

I do this all the time so A) I don't have to overwrite existing programs, and B) so that specialized programs that were specifically written for specific sequences are always available whenever I want to work on that sequence. Almost all ROM play/autodemo sequences take advantage of this feature as well, so that that the sequence always has the right programs.

Right, I know about edit buffers. I was talking about an entire bank as a staging area. It would be nice to have a staging area for Multis, too.

 

You're right, though, about the idea of having many program edit buffers, one for each channel, it's a great idea, I wish every synth was designed that way. Unfortunately, many of them have only one Program edit buffer, and one Multi edit buffer.

 

On the subject of edit buffers, it would be nice if synths had, in addition to one program edit buffer per channel, a program edit buffer for every program used in a Multi, in addition to the edit buffer for the Multi itself.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by GuestUser:

On the subject of buffers, it would be nice if synths had, in addition to one program buffer per channel, a program buffer for every program used in a Multi.

The QS series does; plus, one for the Multi's (Mix, in QS speak) parameters, and the associated effects program as well.

 

dB

[burningbusch]

A point somewhat related to this thread:

 

When I got the Roland XV-3080, I noticed that the first four preset banks all used the old original reverb, even though Roland was bragging up the new SRV reverb (which is noticably better). I chalked it up to lazy programming or something they missed in trying to get the synth out on time. But after discoverying that the XV-88 and XV-5050 (presumably all XV synths, these were just the ones I owned) had the same "flaw", I concluded that the first four banks are a ROM that most likely includes the all the waveforms and all the presets. I had always assumed ROM waveforms and ROM patches were separate, and they could be on other synths.

 

Busch.

[dementia13]

If I turned my QS6 for repair right now, the repairman would think that I'd never programmed a patch on the thing in the 6 years that I've owned it. I keep them all offline on SRAM cards, because I like to keep the synth presets as they are. To me, that's a perfect- and infinitely expandable- setup that I wish more synth and effects manufacturers adopted. I understand how it can be difficult to please everybody with choice of media, but I really like the control over organization I get from keeping my patches separate.

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Actually, now that I think about it, Kurzweil has something like what I'm talking about. The K series has a sort of virtual staging area for Programs and Multis. On a K, when you load a bank, you can load it to whatever bank number you want, until you run out of memory. And when you save stuff, you can save whatever you want, and all of it's dependent objects. A very well-done filesystem.

[Geosync]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Originally posted by marino:

About that 95%, I'm slightly more optimistic... I guess there are some synth owners that reload the presets on their machines before sending them to service, just because they don't want to run the risk to see their work stolen. Maybe they're a bit paranoid, but I know two of three...

I dunno, Carlo...

 

I've heard one or two people make this same point, and I think it's kinda funny (and yes, a bit paranoid)...do you know many synth techs that have a side business selling sounds?

 

Don't you think they'd realize that stealing their customers sounds and selling them would be taking a major risk as far as having their reputations destroyed? I do...

 

dB

That's a good point.. all but a VERY FEW artists I have worked with were absolutely paranoid about their "sounds". When artists performed clinics for us, many would erase the sounds before they left the stage, leaving only the factory presets. Some of those guys have paid programmers a lot of money to create those sounds.They are very protective.

 

Then again, they are the 5% guys aren't they?

[Dan O]

Didn't General Midi bring about the need for at least 128 sounds ?

 

Than GM2 or XG increased those sound total's to over 500 ?

 

For instance , If GM was around with the DX7 or Korg M1 , those classic keyboards would have had an additional 128 preset's or sounds ?

 

Dano

[Tusker]

Originally posted by Geosync:

That's a good point.. all but a VERY FEW artists I have worked with were absolutely paranoid about their "sounds".

Interestingly, I remember a recent interview in Keyboard magazine with Rick Wakeman where he provided transcriptions of his notes but refused to give any sound design tips. His reason, "I like to keep something of myslf that is unique, and I worked hard for these sounds."

 

Of course his are among the most oft copied sounds on the planet ...

 

Jerry

[marino]

Originally posted by Tusker:

Interestingly, I remember a recent interview in Keyboard magazine with Rick Wakeman where he provided transcriptions of his notes but refused to give any sound design tips. His reason, "I like to keep something of myslf that is unique, and I worked hard for these sounds."

 

Of course his are among the most oft copied sounds on the planet ...

 

Jerry

How true! The first thing I did on my new SE-1 was to program a dozen variation on the Wakeman sounds... In fact, listening to him in concert recently was a major incentive to get a 'Mini-like' thing....

[realtrance]

Oh BTW, zeronyne got it spot on -- Crowther and Woods' "Adventure," the first text adventure game (initially deployed on a VAX, I believe?) and the precursor to the brilliant work Infocom did subsequently.

 

rt

[Peake]

"Sound design. Without it, you'd have no damn sounds!" -paraphrasing "Crazy People"'s phone company commercial ;-)

 

But seriously, would you actually want a company to release a synthesizer with no sounds at all, and four (or so) empty banks for storage? Would you spend the time with an instrument in the store if it had no sounds?

[realtrance]

And what would the majority of people do if that were the way synths were delivered?

 

"Can anyone point me to some sounds on the net for the Blinky 6C?"

 

 

Actually I think one of the best things a company could do would be to release, along with a new synth, a fully prepped, carefully designed, appropriately staffed website and chat/support forum actively managed by the manufacturer, for said synth.

 

Wait. Yamaha already does that for the Motif. And Stephen Kay, for Karma.

 

rt

 

rt

[Ender]

I have two synths that are on oposite ends of this. The first one is a Korg N5EX (N1 sound banks in the N5 chassis basically) This one has around 1200 presets with only the User banks being writable. (Program User and Combination User) These hold 100 patches each leaving this synth with 200 user editable slots. I'd prefer it if they all were editable since alot of times I find myself wanting to edit the patch in the A, B, or C bank but not really wanting to overwrite the coresponding number in the User bank. (or choosing another number in the User bank) So I generally don't modify the sounds in this one. Also another MAJOR reason I don't edit this one much is that the interface is circa 1999 with the AI2 synth engine decended from the original AI engine used in the M1. In other words the interface is very dense and very deeply menu driven. (atleast this one is, but I've seen it on other AI2 synths) The only thing more dense then the interface is the manual. Not fun to program even if the system isn't that hard to learn. Wading through menus is not how I like programming sounds.

 

On the oposite side of this is my Korg MS2000. This one has 128 all overwritable presets! I've heard many people complain that this isn't enough, but I also read that Korg's rationale, besides to save money, was to provide few presets so that the user will have to experiment and make his own. I've found that with a librarian or prest manager you don't really need to worry about factory slots since you computer is basically more that you'll ever need. I have a total of 100 gigabytes of storage. How many MILLIONS of presets would it take to fill that considering the size of your average sysex?

 

OT: for all you MS2k users out there check out this newsgroup: Yahoo Korg MS2000 Newsgroup and these free utilities: Freeware

[aeon]

Read the reviews for the Access Virus at Harmony Central and notice how many of the buyers love the fact it comes with hundreds of presets, and the fact there are thousands more for free download from Access.

 

Yes...presets help sell synths, no question.

 

Look around and see what people are saying about the Alesis Ion presets.