Opinions:Post Summer NAAM 2003 Belt/Title Holders.

[Threshold]

All,

 

Just posting my opinion on the following.

 

The Keyboard/Module(Boxing being humorous)Title/Belt Holders are:

 

1.)Deepest Programability:Kurzweil K2600 remains King.

 

2.)Highest Unrestricted Polyphony:General Music Promega 3(correction made based on Dave Bryce's updating info.-Motif ES was listed in this title slot originally)

 

3.)Most Powerful MIDI Module:Yamaha Motif Rack remains King.

 

4.)Most Powerful All In One Keyboard Workstation:Korg Triton Studio remains King.

 

And how about your opinions.

 

Threshold.

 

P.S.:Please feel free to post your feelings, & why you may agee, or disagree with mine. I've posted based upon my current access to new NAMM releases. The info. could change, & thus my opinion.

[RABid]

Originally posted by Threshold:

2.)Highest Unrestricted Polyphony:Yamaha Motif ES

 

Emu came out with 128 polyphony a few years ago in the current Proteus line. Roland followed with the XV-5080, as did Akai and Yamaha with samplers that reached that level. The Motif Rack was the most recent to hit the 128 mark. Any title for polyphony needs to be held until someone surpases the three year old mark.

 

Robert

[Threshold]

Rabid, & All that are interested,

 

Quote:"Emu came out with 128 polyphony a few years ago in the current Proteus line. Roland followed with the XV-5080, as did Akai and Yamaha with samplers that reached that level. The Motif Rack was the most recent to hit the 128 mark. Any title for polyphony needs to be held until someone surpases the three year old mark."

 

-Rabid

 

I gave that title to the Motif ES because not only does it have the most unrestricted polyphony but, it does it in a more powerful sense by having so much dsp processing power (insert effects, master effects, plus restricted polyphony plug in boards & etc.)that goes wel beyond these other MIDI devices you've named. (Correction:General Musics's Promega 3 now has this title due to info. reported by Dave Bryce.)

 

Threshold.l

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Threshold:

1.)Deepest Programability:Kurzweil K2600 remains King.

 

Agreed.

 

2.)Highest Unrestricted Polyphony:Yamaha Motif ES

General Music might take issue with that, since their ProMega has 320 notes of polyphony.

 

3.)Most Powerful MIDI Module:Yamaha Motif Rack remains King.

You're gonna need to do better than that, brother Threshold - you can't just lay a statement like that down without backing it up. We're gonna need reasons...

 

4.)Most Powerful All In One Keyboard Workstation:Korg Triton Studio remains King.

Ya think? I believe the new MOTIF dusts it on pretty much every spec...

 

dB

[steadyb]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

I believe the new MOTIF dusts it on pretty much every spec...

 

dB

I know very little about the Motif.

 

What's so great about it? (seriously)

[Soundscape Studios.]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

4.)Most Powerful All In One Keyboard Workstation:Korg Triton Studio remains King.

Ya think? I believe the new MOTIF dusts it on pretty much every spec...

 

dB

Everything but the sound.

 

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Soundscape Studios:

Everything but the sound.

 

Oh? Have you heard the new MOTIF? Maybe you wanna wait to do that before making that call...

 

Besides, brother Sruly - sound isn't a spec. The closest one can come to measuring that is amount of wave ROM, and the new MOTIF has a whole bunch more wave ROM than the Triton.

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by steadyb:

I know very little about the Motif.

 

What's so great about it? (seriously)

MOTIF ES specs.

 

dB

[Threshold]

Dave Bryce, (& All interested),

 

Quote:"Ya think? I believe the new MOTIF dusts it on pretty much every spec..."

 

-Dave Bryce.

 

When I say most powerful all in one I meant the capacity to pretty much do a project(demo/scratch)from beginning to end(meaning bed/skeleton tracks through overdubs to a final finished CD). I know of no other keyboard that has that capacity. If I'm wrong please correct me. I stand corrected regarding the General Music device.

 

Quote:"You're gonna need to do better than that, brother Threshold - you can't just lay a statement like that down without backing it up. We're gonna need reasons... "

 

-Dave Bryce

 

You said this regarding my statement giving the MIDI module title to the Motif Rack. My reason is one-it has the most polyphony of all rack devices(that I know of), two-the deepest effect section(I believe 4 insert blocks + master effects), plus the option of installing plug in boards. Just my opinion. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Did'nt go to the show. I had projects I was booked on so I've had to rely on the net, & word of mouth info..

 

Threshold.

[Felix_dup1]

Deepest programmability? I'm assuming we're talking hardware (and not software) here. I think the V-Synth should also be strongly considered.

 

As for the idea to final-CD argument for Triton in the "best all-around," the new Motif ES also has 2 USB ports on the back, so you could easily hook up a CD burner...

 

Guess it depends on how you define "power."

[Threshold]

felix,

 

Quote:"As for the idea to final-CD argument for Triton in the "best all-around," the new Motif ES also has 2 USB ports on the back, so you could easily hook up a CD burner...

 

-felix

 

I said "Best All In One"(meaning self contained), not "Best All Around". I'd have to agree with you in 'considering' the Motif ES as a major contender for the "Best All Around" belt. I'll shy away from naming a "Best All Around" keyboard because each of the top megakeyboards(Korg-Triton Studio, Kurzweil-K2600, Roland-Fantom S, & Yamaha Motif ES)has some specialty area that the others don't venture into. At this level it's got to come down to personal preference, & how you use the device.

 

Threshold.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Threshold:

When I say most powerful all in one I meant the capacity to pretty much do a project(demo/scratch)from beginning to end(meaning bed/skeleton tracks through overdubs to a final finished CD). I know of no other keyboard that has that capacity.

Understood. If your original post has specified that you were talking about the Triton Studio, that'd have been clearer. I notice that you've since edited it...

 

Personally, I'd still get a MOTIF, and with the money saved, I'd just buy an outboard CD burner. To each his/her own, though...

 

My reason is one-it has the most polyphony of all rack devices(that I know of), two-the deepest effect section(I believe 4 insert blocks + master effects), plus the option of installing plug in boards. Just my opinion. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm pretty much inclined to agree - I was just looking for clarification of what you meant. Since you had already specified that the Triton was king, I wasn't sure where you were coming from.

 

It's exactly the logic you cited above (and more!) that makes me still think that the MOTIF ES is a vastly superior workstation to even the Triton Studio, CD burner or no CD burner.

 

dB

[Tusker]

Question on programming depth, shouldn't the Nord Modular (either old or G2) count?

 

Yes the Modular isn't as broad as a K2600. No samples, No EFX etc. But when you get to programming it you have a completely modular signal path rather than a semi-modular one. And there's at least a couple of areas (control signals and modifiers) where I would say the Kurz (despite FUNS) is less equipped.

 

Not trying to correct anyone. Just wondering what people think.

 

Best,

 

Jerry

[Threshold]

Dave Bryce,

 

Quote:"Understood. If your original post has specified that you were talking about the Triton Studio, that'd have been clearer. I notice that you've since edited it...

 

Personally, I'd still get a MOTIF, and with the money saved, I'd just buy an outboard CD burner. To each his/her own, though... "

 

-Dave Bryce

 

To clarify, my original post did place the Korg Triton Studio as the "Best All In One" keyboard. And in addition to that I'll say that I'd have to agree with you regarding the purchase of the Motif ES in certain respects/situations(excluding being on the road in hotel room/tour bus situations where you just want to pull the board out of the case then plug, & play). I intend to buy a Motif ES. Fo' shoourre'. But in summary if I had to buy one keyboard, & then the other it'd be the Triton Studio first(then the Motif ES). You can get much more creative with 5 inserts effects that can be placed (anywhere, or on one instrument), 2 master effects(which includes chorus, reverb, & a multitude of other effects), & global eq, that can be resampled into one part of a combination, or one sequence track then releasing all of those effects to be put on a completely different instrument(as with the Triton Studio), than trying to do the same thing with EQ, 2 insert effects, a master chorus, a master reverb, & a master EQ(as with the Motif ES). Just the way I work I guess(and maybe a few other people). So far I use the Roland V Session, Boss DR660, Emu SP1200(original disk drum sounds as well as others), Roland V Bass, Sams Amp PSA-1, Roland VG 88, Roland XV5080, Korg Trinity Plus, Korg Triton Rack, Korg Triton Studio, Ensoniq ASR88, Akai MPC 2000 XL, & Akai MPC4000. A Motif ES along with a K2600 will be more like a studio/project production drawing card(Bait to get fish in there, or get project work from them(the fish once again)).

 

Threshold.

[Threshold]

Tusker,

 

Quote:"Question on programming depth, shouldn't the Nord Modular (either old or G2) count?

 

Yes the Modular isn't as broad as a K2600. No samples, No EFX etc. But when you get to programming it you have a completely modular signal path rather than a semi-modular one. And there's at least a couple of areas (control signals and modifiers) where I would say the Kurz (despite FUNS) is less equipped.

 

Not trying to correct anyone. Just wondering what people think.

 

Best,

 

Jerry

 

-Tusker

 

Hmmm. Interesting point of view. A concept that's definatly worth pondering. Oh, & as far as I'm concerned there's noting to correct regarding individuals opinions on this thread. Correcting facts yes.

 

Threshold.

[burningbusch]

Though I too prefer the Motif ES over the Triton, I'm not sure that you will be able to press CDs with a USB-attached CD writer on the ES. Physically connecting a CD writer and burning the tracks are two very different things. Hopefully though, you will be able to connect tiny USB storage devices like the one below. Many of these store up to 512MB, which would cover the sample RAM on the ES. This is a big step forward. SCSI devices are still big and expensive, and getting harder to find.

 

http://www.goelectronic.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/3/usm256u2.jpg

 

Busch.

[RABid]

I tend to agree with Tusker about the Nord Modular.

 

Also, as far as the Motif Rack I think it is a bit behind. The 128 voices polyphony is matched by other manufacturers. When fully loaded with expansion cards you get more polyphony from the Motif Rack than others

 

Load up a Proteus command station and you have 128 meg ROM, more than the Motif Rack.

 

Load up a Triton Rack and you get internal ROM plus 8*18 meg ROM's plus 96 meg sampling memory plus the MOSS board. More ROM and RAM than the Motif Rack but half of the polyphony.

 

Load up a Roland XV-5080 and you get included ROM plus 128 meg sample memory plus 4*8 meg expansion ROM's plus 4*64 meg expansion ROM's plus 128 memory card. More expansion than any other rack.

 

Given all expansions the Motif Rack can reach the most polyphony, but from what I am reading now the Motif Rack has problems with MIDI timing when the polyphony limit is reached. If this is true then the 128+ number is inconsequential. The Roland XV-5080 and the E-mu Command Stations handle 128 polyphony very well. The only time I have choked my command station is when I tried to change 16 patches and the corresponding effects settings at once during a song without any type of pause. Im not sure any hardware unit can handle that kind of data hit between beats every time you try it. But bottom line, I would still like to have a Motif Rack, Triton Rack, Proteus 2500 and Rolans XV-5080 in my setup.

 

Robert

[Threshold]

Rabid, (& All interested)

 

You brought up a subject that's been in the back of my mind. Which one of these devices has the most ROM/sounds when fully expanded? An XV5080 with all 8 expansion cards installed, a Triton Rack with 8 cards, a Triton Studio with 7 cards, a Motif ES with 3 plugin boards, or expanded K2600?

 

Threshold.

[RABid]

I would guess Roland with 352 Meg of ROM when fully expanded, not including RAM for sampling. Out of Roland, Yamaha, E-mu and Korg, I believe Korg is the furthest behind in expansion ROMs. Roland gives you the most memory at 64 meg, Yamaha gives you extra polyphony or synthesis methods, and E-mu gives you 512 patches on each ROM.

 

So Roland, Yamaha and E-mu each have an advantage over others. I keep hoping Korg will update the Triton series and ROMs.

 

Robert

[Gregg Seibert]

I talked to a Yamaha rep at the show. He was demo-ing the Motif ES8, I believe. In November it's coming out with mLAN "B" which will support 24 tracks at 24 bit/96K. A Keyboard with that much I/O will be a serious contender with the big Triton, in my opinion.

[Geosync]

Originally posted by Gregg Seibert:

In November it's coming out with mLAN "B" which will support 24 tracks at 24 bit/96K. A Keyboard with that much I/O will be a serious contender with the big Triton, in my opinion.

I believe the mLAN16E is only 16 channels and I'm not sure if the MotifSE supports all 16. ??

 

"When you want to move up to mLAN networking Yamahas high-performance music networking protocol simply install the optional mLAN16E expansion board (available soon) in your MOTIF ES synthesizer and youre ready to network and share multiple ports of MIDI data and multiple channels of 24-bit/96 kHz audio data with other mLAN compatible devices or computers with 1394 Firewire connectors. "

[Threshold]

Rabid, & All,

 

Quote:"Given all expansions the Motif Rack can reach the most polyphony, but from what I am reading now the Motif Rack has problems with MIDI timing when the polyphony limit is reached. If this is true then the 128+ number is inconsequential."

 

-Rabid.

 

Point taken. Another thing regarding the polyphony (could be take as poly 'phoney' - just kidding) in the Motif series(including Rack, & ES) is that the polyphony is counted at the operator(partial to Roland users, & multisample to Korg users) level. Which means if you have a program that uses 4 operators you only can play 32 notes from that one program before the Motif runs out of polyphony, & you'd only get 64 notes of polyphony total from the whole Motif if the one program is programed to use 2 operators per note. This cheapens the spec.'s. When Kurzweil prints spec's(48 notes for example)that's the case no matter what program, or numbers of layers there are in the program. I believe the same thing applies with the Roland XV 5080(someone correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Threshold.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Threshold:

Another thing regarding the polyphony (could be take as poly 'phoney' - just kidding) in the Motif series(including Rack, & ES) is that the polyphony is counted at the operator(partial to Roland users, & multisample to Korg users) level.

I think Yamaha calls it an "element", if I'm not mistaken. Operators were used in the FM stuff, like the DX7.

 

I also think Roland calls them "tones".

 

This nomenclature can be confusing, because a "tone" refers to all of the settings that make up a specific voice of a program - raw waveform, tuning, filter settings, envelope settings LFOs, etc. The raw waveform itself also usually has a name, like multisample (Korg speak), or partial (Roland speak). However, a partial is just basically the sound generating aspect (raw waveform) of a tone.

 

Which means if you have a program that uses 4 operators you only can play 32 notes from that one program before the Motif runs out of polyphony, & you'd only get 64 notes of polyphony total from the whole Motif if the one program is programed to use 2 operators per note.

This is correct.

 

When Kurzweil prints spec's(48 notes for example)that's the case no matter what program, or numbers of layers there are in the program. I believe the same thing applies with the Roland XV 5080(someone correct me if I'm wrong).

You're wrong on both counts.

 

Kurzweil's VAST synths can use up to three "layers" in a program. Each "layer" uses a voice of polyphony. Now, it is true that the Kurz has the ability to use up to three additional simple single cycle waveforms (saw, square, etc) in addition to the primary sample on each layer without affecting polyphony, but the additional tones can only be single cycle waveforms, not samples. Kurzweil programs can also operate in what they call Drum Mode, which allows up to 32 layers...and each one of those eats a voice of polyphony as well.

 

All the Roland ROMplers work the same as the MOTIF. More layers (tones) = less polyphony. In the newer Roland synths (such as the XV5080), it's even worse, because a single tone can contain a stereo sample (partial), which eats two voices. So, if you use four tones, each with a stereo sample, then a single keystroke can eat eight voices.

 

Also, in any of these, if you start stacking programs in Combi/Multi/Performance/Mix mode, polyphony can vanish quite rapidly.

 

dB

[Threshold]

Dave Bryce,

 

Quote:"I think Yamaha calls it an Element, if I'm not mistaken. Operators were used in the FM stuff, like the DX7.

 

I also think Roland calls them "tones".

 

-Dave Bryce

 

I stand corrected(might have thought about operators for the DX plugin board, & placed it where the main processing polyphony spec/term should be). After working with so many synths over the years you can get confused(like I just did). It 'is' elements with the Motif series, & I believe tones with the Roland. I got partials from the old D50 synths that helped make Roland famous in the first place(if I remember this correctly. All I 'do' know is that if I get in the studio with these things I can pretty much get them to do what the client wants. After all I'm still getting consistent work).

 

But regarding the Kurzweil product you may need to acknowledge a correction, that, or Kurzweil needs to change the language in their advertising.

 

I quote Kurzweil regarding the K2600 series:

 

"...True 48 polyphony with 192 oscillators...."

 

-Kurzweil Music Systems

from:http://www.kurzweilmusicsystems.com/html/k2600.html

 

I'll let you, & Kurzweil debate this. All I know is that this is their statement of specification for the K2600. But the point I was trying to make that should not be missed is that regarding the Motif series(Rack, & ES included) the 128note spec (not making the potential element calculations) can be misleading especially taking into consideration real world use. Your statement regarding Combi/Multi/Performance/Mix modes preconfirms this.

 

Threshold.

[RABid]

I believe that I read in the XV-5080 manual that the Roland system evolved so that a stereo sample only takes one voice. While a stereo voice in the XP took 2 voices in the XV it takes only one. I am sure that if Mr. Green reads this he can either confirm this, or tell me I am wrong. If I get a chance I will dig out the manual.

 

Robert

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Threshold:

But regarding the Kurzweil product you may need to acknowledge a correction, that, or Kurzweil needs to change the language in their advertising.

 

I quote Kurzweil regarding the K2600 series:

 

"...True 48 polyphony with 192 oscillators...."

Threshold -

 

Trust me, I'm right on this one. I worked for Kurzweil for quite a while, and sold a whole bunch of VAST synths,not to mention having done a ton of demos and trained a whole bunch of folks on how to use them/sell them.

 

When they say oscillators, they're talking about the single cycle waveforms only. It's marketing spin, born out of the fact that the K2000 only had 24 voices when it came out, making it inferior to most of it's 32 voice competitors in that arena at the time (the original line was 24 voices, 96 oscillators - it doubled when the K2500 came out).

 

In program mode, three layers = three voices with one keystroke. Drum mode - way more voices. Trust me - I'm fairly certain that I'm right.

 

dB

[Geosync]

This whole polyphony thing is almost meaningless.

 

Dave is right..

 

But the K2600 can have velocity switches in a single program where 3 or less notes of polyphony only fire out of 256 Possible

or 24 out of a possible 2048 using a setup (our combi)

 

It gets really weird. I have come to believe that the polyhony spec mostly applies to ROMplers and Sample playback only machines.

 

The PC2X and PC2RX have been on the market for several years now and they are 128 notes of polyphony.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Rabid:

I believe that I read in the XV-5080 manual that the Roland system evolved so that a stereo sample only takes one voice. While a stereo voice in the XP took 2 voices in the XV it takes only one. I am sure that if Mr. Green reads this he can either confirm this, or tell me I am wrong. If I get a chance I will dig out the manual.

I'm going from memory based on the review I did of the Fantom for EM. I'm pretty sure that I recall correctly that the stereo samples still use two voices, even though they only occuply one tone. The system's evolution was because it's redundant and a bit wasteful to have to use up two tones to do stereo.

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Geosync:

But the K2600 can have velocity switches in a single program where 3 or less notes of polyphony only fire out of 256 Possible or 24 out of a possible 2048 using a setup (our combi)

Also, I think that the voice stealing algorithms in the VAST synths are quite excellent - they're the least abrupt of any of the ROMplers, IMO.

 

I think the Roland ROMplers are the most abrupt.

 

dB

[RABid]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

... The system's evolution was because it's redundant and a bit wasteful to have to use up two tones to do stereo.

 

dB

From what you say it sounds like they are not really gaining anything. If a stereo voice cuts the possible maximum tones in half then polyphony is still being wasted.

 

Robert