Sharp 5 chords.

[shniggens]

When and how to use them. Suggestions?

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by shniggens:

When and how to use them. Suggestions?

Only after a full meal.

[shniggens]

That gives me cramps. http://www.colorado4x4.org/ubb/graemlins/thefinger.gif

[Pat Azzarello]

I use the +5 chord in a couple of situations:

1. The melody demands it, but the chord structure

2. I want to use a whole tone scale.

3. I have a line cliche (ascending or descending)

 

The second use is even more appropriate when it's a chord like C+7.

 

I also distinguish between a +5 chord and a b13 chord. The b13 is more appropriate over a minor mode than a major mode, especially on the V chord (i.e., C7(b13) it is the b3 of Fminor. A C7(13) chord would imply F major - typically not a good idea unless you like Picardy 3rds (that's the second time I got to use that this year )

[SoundWrangler]

Originally posted by PatAzz:

...I also distinguish between a +5 chord and a b13 chord....

And well you should - I definitely agree. Too many jazz fakebooks incorrectly notate #5 chords that are really b13ths. When in doubt, apply the "bossa nova test": If it sounds good for the bass player (or your left hand) to continue playing a "plain" root-5 pattern (that is, no sharp 5) while you play that "#5" chord thingamajig on top, then this chord is really a b13 - which IS an important distinction because this provides a major hint about potential improvising scales over the chord. (For example, a G7b13 chord in the key of C minor might imply a scale built from the 5th degree of the C harmonic minor scale, giving you both a D and an Eb to noodle with, rather than some goofy augmented or whole-tone scale as a G7#5 might otherwise suggest.)

 

Back to shniggens's original question about WHEN you should use a Sharp-5 chord, though:

A. When you're about to play "Oh! Darling".

[shniggens]

Originally posted by SoundWrangler:

Originally posted by PatAzz:

[qb]...

 

Back to shniggens's original question about WHEN you should use a Sharp-5 chord, though:

A. When you're about to play "Oh! Darling".

And it all made perfect sense.

 

Well, not really, you guys gave me some good stuff to digest on the piano, thanks alot.

 

http://www.colorado4x4.org/ubb/graemlins/beer.gif

[petros]

V7 #5 may indicate whole tone scale, which I seldom care for, it can sound circus like.

 

I most often include b13 (same note as #5) on my V7 alt chords which includes the #9 and the b13

[burlingame2]

Since I went with the selection `after a good meal`, I have to second it. I did recall thinking just recently, `there is something in these chords that is helping the melody with something I`m just really enjoying. While I doubt it will be a revelation, I went to the keyboard and found the b13 or whatevers on the VII7, VI7, #IV7, bII7 -- in the same song, preceded by a dominant or substitute dominant of some kind, and the more often seen II#5-V7 at the end. The order is correct, of course there was much more going on in the tune. There will be substantial steps for me to personally refrain from my signatory drudgery in the future. Cheers.

[Dave Horne]

Sorry for my initial response, I was just being silly. You didn't have to give me the finger though.

 

Allan Forte, a well known theorist, would probably explain an augmented chord as the result of melodic forces - and come under the general heading of 'the melodic process of chord generation' ... or something like that.

 

These chords often occur to 'fit' the melody or as a little extra weight as some sort of 'dominant' embellishment. The bottom line is simply to use your own ears.

 

When I was younger I always thought a simple augmented dominant chord sounded a bit old fashioned. They are great to improvise over because of the whole tone scale and various whole tone patterns from that scale.

 

Clark Terry uses a melodic pattern (usually at the end of a chorus) that begins arpeggiating a ii7 chord ascending and returning downward on a V+ chord. In C something like,

 

(ascending) D F A C E G, (descending) D# B G D# B G

 

I always smile when I hear that. Oscar Peterson also has a few licks based on a V+ chord ... as do all piano players, I suppose. Its general acceptance has been rather slow and it was only recently voted as one of the top ten chords by a well known music magazine.

[Tusker]

I associate it with melodic movement.

 

Lets say in we are in C and the C+ is a way to get to F ....

 

There are genres of music (include mozart I suppose) where a g# is part of the melody line. Sometimes half steps are observed at all points on the scale D to E becomes D D# E, G to A becomce G, G# A and so on. It tends to fit such contexts.

 

I remember trying so hard to write a decent sounding chord progression that went C, C+, Ab. It made sense to me that if you could use it to go to F, you could use it to got to Ab. I never got a strong enough dominant feeling though.

 

Which illustrates why this chord never made it big except in schmalz city. It's too ambiguous to serve as a dominant unless you put something more dissonant into the mix (e.g. flat 9) ...

 

Or play it over a "squashed" bass note. As in Em, B+/F, F#m-5, B7 etc. ....

Or as in "I feel pretty" ... E, B+/A, E, B+/A, E, B+/A,

 

Best,

 

Jerry

[Dave Horne]

//Which illustrates why this chord never made it big except in schmalz city. It's too ambiguous to serve as a dominant unless you put something more dissonant into the mix (e.g. flat 9) ...//

 

Adding _just_ a 7th to a V+ chord is certainly not ambiguous and sounds like a dominant function to me.

 

For example, in C ... LH G, F, RH B, D#, G

 

A augmented triad _without_ any preceding chords is certainly ambiguous re its placement in a 'tonal center'. Add a 7th to it and you can drive straight on home to the tonic.

[Tom Fiala]

This chord makes the occasional appearance in 60's rock songs. It rarely shows up elsewhere in the rock oriented material we play. You jazzers out there probably use it much more. Anyhow, usually the altered fifth is treated like a chromatic passing note, usually in the soprano voice.

 

Classic (but somewhat cheesy ) example = Dave Clark 5, "Because".

[pete psingpy]

I listen to (and play somewhat) a lot of blues, particularly the New Orleans stuff a la Dr. John, Booker, Longhair etc. I often hear 7th chords, particular the dominant, played with a #5.

 

Even a simple blues type of pattern in a major key will have the dominant played with a #5 sometimes. Dr. John "Qualified" I think is an example. It's in Eb major, and the Bb7 he plays is voiced like Ab,D,Gb, Bb before returning to the boogie-ish "vamp" over Eb. It creates a little more tension than the regular 7th.

 

Also, Dr. John "Lousiana Lullaby" starts with the same Bb7 I mentioned above (I think). The chords are more gospel-blues I think than just a simple blues progression.

 

The sharp 5 in these cases in my mind is a fancy way of just thinking of the minor third of the parent key (Gb in the key of Eb).

 

I don't know if you would call it a #5 or b13 in this case...that was a bit beyond me.

[Dave Horne]

Not to be pedantic, but a #5 is just that ... a #5.

 

In Eb, a V7+ or Bb7+ is spelled Bb, D, F#, Ab.

 

To write a Gb instead of a F# would be a b13 and would imply that a 9th or 11th were present. From what you described, I would guess a Bb7 with a #5.

 

//The sharp 5 in these cases in my mind is a fancy way of just thinking of the minor third of the parent key (Gb in the key of Eb).//

 

Not really ... and these little tricks or different ways of looking at things only confuse things further. Just look at a #5 as being a #5 ... nothing more, nothing less.

[Tusker]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

A augmented triad _without_ any preceding chords is certainly ambiguous re its placement in a 'tonal center'. Add a 7th to it and you can drive straight on home to the tonic.

That's certainly what I meant. Adding a 7th or virtually any other note) to it can certainly increase the dissonance and reduce the ambiguity.

 

The augmented triad's ambiguity has great unused potential for common note modulations. People do that all the time with diminisheds and rarely with augmented chords. For example:

 

3 step cycle of diminished modulations (up by major 3rds):

1) C, Cdim, E

2) E, E dim, Aflat

3) Ab, Abdim, C

 

4 step cycle of augmented modulations (down by minor 3rds)

1) C C+/Bflat, A

2) A, A+/G, F#

3) F#, F#+/E, Eb

4) Eb, Eb+/Db, C

 

Best,

 

Jerry

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by shniggens:

When and how to use them. Suggestions?

In blues, the five chord at the end of the turnaround is often V7(#5).

 

Prof Longhair uses it in place of the IV chord, for example, in "Big Chief".

 

In Gospel styles, the (major) VI chord will often be heard with a raised 5 - its obviously a close relative of IV.

[Dave Horne]

Since the harmonic function of a augmented chord is typically dominant, it can be used as a dominant function chord moving to any other major or minor diatonic triad (or to modulate outside of the closely related keys. A closely related key is a key that either shares the same key signature of the tonic, it's relative minor or major, or any key that is one sharp or one flat away. F and Dm one flat, G and Em one sharp and Am no flats or sharps just happen to be the diatonic chords of C major and if used as a new temporary tonic are all one sharp or flat away.)

 

In C major, for example, we have five possible diatonic targets or temporary tonal centers ... Dm, Em, F, G, and Am.

 

By using a A7 or A7+ resolving to Dm, we have an example of a secondary dominant function using our new found friend, the augmented triad or augmented dominant 7th chord.

 

... or B7 or B7+ resolving to Em (or iii)

... or C7 or C7+ resolving to F (or IV) ... and so on and so on.

(We could not construct a dominant function resolving to vii as that is neither major nor minor, but diminished.)

 

(A 'primary' dominant function would be V - I, all others with the key of C would normally be labeled secondary dominants.)

 

This is just covering some 'harmonic' uses of an augmented chord and do not cover any melodic uses.

 

Lesson over, there will be a pop quiz later this week.

[Dan South]

They work well as a dominant in a minor key or when temporarily moving to a minor key center in a piece. Dominants with diminished fifths also work nicely.

 

I like a #5 mixed with a 7b9 or a 7#9. It has a more open sound than the standard 7b9 or 7#9.

[petros]

Tonic major I chords are sometimes "sharp fived" in jazz:

C Maj 7 +5 whis is the third mode of minor major scale.

 

Jazz charts are often not so careful as to distinguish between b13 and #5. Miles davis groups used those in the early 1960's and they have been popular ever since. It seems nobody has mentioned those here so far...

 

I usually treat V7 +5 chords as "alt" chords with a # 9 when I see b13 or # 5 (7th mode of melodic minor)

I usually see Dominant 7 + 5 chords , as in "All The Things You Are" in the bar at the end of the bridge (C7 +) written that way because it's in the melody.

A lot of arrangers write the chords to reflect the melody, which is fine but does not mean you must voice them literally that way.