Bin Laden's letter to America

[Veracohr]

http://www.observer.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

[Jotown]

Well, it sure is nice of him to keep in touch. :mad:

[mars_dup1]

It's unfortunate that the American media will probably ignore this. It really needs to be debated and taken apart point-by-point for the benefit of the weaker minds among us. Don't you just love it how he manages to throw in everything AND the kitchen sink? From Israel/Palestine to Hiroshima, Ben Franklin, the Women's Lib movement and everthing in-between. Two things sprang to mind: 1) Who the hell appointed him saviour and defender of the Muslim world? Does he think he's Ayatollah Khomeni or something? 2) Does he REALLY believe all this stuff?

[Alndln]

[quote]Originally posted by mars: [b] Don't you just love it how he manages to throw in everything AND the kitchen sink? [/b][/quote]Well,he did forget one thing,for the first time he forgot to sign off with..........Bralalala

[Wow]

[quote] Well,he did forget one thing,for the first time he forgot to sign off with..........Bralalala [/quote]lol lol lol

[Hippie]

There is a clinical name for this kind of affliction,.. I can't think of the name right now. -The person will take a shread of truth and bastardize it into something completely different. ie: Charles Manson ,'Helter Skelter'/Beatles made me do it or David Berkowitz (Son of Sam), with the neighbors dog advising him to kill people. Matt

[Wewus432]

So if Israel pulls out of The Middle East and we all convert to Islam then we could end this whole thing right now. That's not too much to ask for, is it? Isn't this often the way of history? One fanatical madman comes along and is able to incite people to war. Why is that? I'm truly sad and afraid that this could be the beginning of World War III. The scary thing is a lot of what Bin Laden says is true and makes sense, but it's the conclusions he draws from these truths that are so wrong and dangerous. His call to action resonates with more than just a few Muslims and CAN be supported by their religion. Well I'll tell you one thing, I will never convert to Islam. I've read the Quran and I've studied all the other major religions and IMO Islam is one of the most backward and vacuous religions ever devised by man. I read the whole book and I got NOTHING out of it. Somebody tell me what I'm missing there because I just don't see anything of redeeming value there. Also Israel will never leave The Middle East. Who's going to tell them they have to move out? They could single handedly wipe out every other country in that region and sad to say that could be what happens. To me this is in many ways The Battle between The Past and The Future, Bin Laden and his followers representing The Past. They would like to keep the whole world there with them or if that's not possible, destroy them. I DO BELIEVE the world is in need of spiritual renewal in some form but I do not believe it will come from Islam because... it is a dead religion. See, here's another funny thing about Islam, because of the things I've just said, many of the followers of Islam would consider that grounds to kill me. How about that situation in Nigeria? They started rioting and killing people over a newspaper article. That's just wrong, and I for one will not tolerate their intolerance or pretend that they're not fucked up. This situation seems to me to have gotten to the point where there is nothing more to talk about, it's either us or them. I choose us.

[Tedster]

My letter to Bin Laden: "FUCK YOU." :D

[Anderton]

<> World War III has already begun. It's just more subtle than what we've come to expect from war. <> This is a religious war...the worst kind of war, IMHO. I thought we were through with that kind of thing. What's even messier is that a lot of non-Muslims will assume that because Bin Laden claims to speak for all Muslims, he does. I don't think this is the case, any more than Jerry Falwell speaks for all Christians.

[Wewus432]

Hey Craig: I don't believe that Bin Laden speaks for all Muslims but I do believe there is a big enough faction of fanatical people leaning towards his beliefs to sway the other Muslims or take control from them similar to what happened in Nazi Germany.

[Tusker]

What Craig said. Agreed on both points. BTW, this "religious" war was predicted by Alvin Toffler in 1993. He called it the struggle between war and anti-war. It's part of his overall thesis that the third wave (the information age) will revolutionize the growing economies. The left-behinds will resort to war. And we will have to fight war with anti-war to win. The book is: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0446602590/qid=1038240307/sr=2-3/ref=sr_2_3/102-7429668-8973738 I am not flogging Amazon. But there are some sample pages and this book is a fascinating lens to see current events through. Jerry

[AlanThomas]

I found it particularly telling that at least twice in this letter, Bin Laden made reference to the "paltry" price of their "treasures". So for all his self righteousness and moral posturing, the [i]money[/i] is still an important point...

[Aaron Carey]

this stuff is just TOO funny! When I was growing up in the 80's I was " mr hardcore punk rocker" and always looking for causes of freedom and things to run to. CONSTANTLY we'd see flyers and and invitations for " The Righteous Warriors ", "The Mujahadeen" and the " Fighters for Religious Freedom". Here were these young rebels taking on the unstoppable soviet union and other corrupt governments thruout the world, punk rock in action! I wanted to join up so bad!!! The funny part is, almost all the things we were attacked for in THIS new letter, were the things Osama and others PRAISED america for back then! The propaganda was GREAT " we know you young radicals dont agree with the CIA but here is a chance to use THEIR money in the cause of freedom and here you will learn the skills to bring back home and stop also oppression in america" etc... All sorts of help went from america to those guys, public and private. I remember Rambo 3 coming out, and even tho it was another stupid rambo movie, I was SO bummed I didnt get to run over to afghanistan and fire RPG's at russian tanks and things...oh well SO Osama, take all of OUR resources to free yourselves then turn your back on THE COUNTRY YOU PRAISED and begged from and bite the hand that feeds you! You are a spoiled little bitch brat and have BROKEN "anarchit's ettiquette" in the worst way....go lick bung and another thing, America is the ONLY thing stopping Israel from completely wiping out the palestinians so dont blame us for THAT you lying sack of shit

[Sylver]

I think that all Americans should read this letter. One of the fundemental differences between the US population and the world of Islam is that [i]they all know what they are fighting for![/i] Most Americans have no clue why the Islamic people as a whole hate us. They hate us because we back thier oppressors. They hate us because we force them to accept our price for thier natural resources. They hate us because we have little conviction and understanding of our own religeons. But most of all, I think they hate us because most of us haven't even bothered to find out why they hate us. Don't get me wrong, I DON'T approve of thier methods of getting attention, but if I were a non-American muslum, especially one living in the Middle East(Most especially Israeli occupied Palistine) I'd be pretty pissed and frustrated. I've made the point about the US interest in the Palistinian/Israeli conflict before, and almost everyone who responded to the FACTS that I stated about what happened in Palistine/Isreal after WWII dismissed me as ill informed. Someone went so far as to tell me to take a history class. But the history that we learn in school is the history written by the victors, my friends. Hate to tell you, kids, but that letter is right on the money as far as what happened to the Palistinians after WWII and how the US backed the emerging country of Isreal. And Isreal would be toast by now if the US and GB hadn't given them logistical and military resources. 50 years of oppression, second class citizenship and death. What would you do? I'd probably want to blow shit up. Look, I'm not saying that we should lie down and take it, but the US and the UN should be putting as much pressure on Isreal to resolve this conflict as they are on Palistine. And then, if Isreal is all by themselves, the only Zionist state in the whole Middle East, maybe they will be able to open a dialog with Palistine that is constructive, takes the Palistinians interests into account, and makes them not want to send cars full of explosives into Tel Aviv. Then again, maybe Isreal would just turn the whole area into a big piece of glass.

[Wewus432]

I think you're right Dr. Sylver that we have been wrong, very wrong, in many instances, but what I get from Bin Laden's letter is it's too late to do anything about it. How do you talk to someone who's coming at you with a knife? You don't. They've declared war on us and are obviously the underdogs. The only way for an underdog like that to win is by unconventional means. Those means will be nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons. They WILL attempt to use those weapons and no arguments or conjecture on what could or should have been done will change that. You see what I'm saying?

[Tedster]

Yes. What Craig said. We're on the way. But what I got from a quick scan of the letter...in tone, basically is that "Islam is the true religion, and anyone who doesn't subscribe to it is our enemy". DUH...doesn't matter that the Israelis claimed that territory thousands of years before Mohammed came around. Basically, it's an excuse. I gather that all of his accusations about us attacking Islam, although in some cases perhaps arguably valid, are a smokescreen to the fact that even if we had never supported Israel and had never "attacked Islam" or tried to cash in on the Arab held resources of the middle east, he would only trump up other charges against us to justify his Jihad. My earlier post stands. We will bury him in his own camel dung. But, the scary thing is that that may only happen once we become as fanatical about what we believe to be right as he is. -------------------- Winston Zeddmore: "I'll believe whatever you want me to believe, as long as there's a paycheck in it."

[Aaron Carey]

america might have done a LOT of wrong but surely not to bin laden besides somalia, name ONE modern conflict where we werent either fighting on his side or directly aiding him in the fight

[E-money]

It's kind of wierd how our government's focus has shifted to Iraq, and yet this jackass is still breathing. Personally, I agree with some of what the dude from Ghostbusters said, that we should play a stronger role in forcing Israel towards peace. I hope their upcoming elections produce less of a hardline government than what is there now.

[Sylver]

[quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]I think you're right Dr. Sylver that we have been wrong, very wrong, in many instances, but what I get from Bin Laden's letter is it's too late to do anything about it. How do you talk to someone who's coming at you with a knife? You don't. They've declared war on us and are obviously the underdogs. The only way for an underdog like that to win is by unconventional means. Those means will be nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons. They WILL attempt to use those weapons and no arguments or conjecture on what could or should have been done will change that. You see what I'm saying?[/b][/quote]Absolutely! The scary think is that these guys have their convictions to back them up. I can't disagree with thier convictions, even if I don't agree with thier methods. Wewus, you are right, no matter how [i]right[/i] it may be to do so, we can't turn the other cheek to this threat. I guess my point is, that while we can't sit by and let them terrorize us, we should also realize that as long as they think that we are supporting thier enemies(and we are, really), they will continue to be a thorn in our side(at least). Of course, the philosophy may be that by putting pressure on Isreal for them, we are doing what they want us to. True, but they are willing to die for what they believe in. Are we willing to die for what they believe in too?

[strat0124]

[quote] This is a religious war...the worst kind of war, IMHO. I thought we were through with that kind of thing. What's even messier is that a lot of non-Muslims will assume that because Bin Laden claims to speak for all Muslims, he does. I don't think this is the case, any more than Jerry Falwell speaks for all Christians.[/QB][/quote]The problem is Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham's son are invited to give the commencement prayer at the anaugaration ceremony of Dubya's, which makes the rest of the world think the dim son agrees with their rants. Which may be true. When Bin Laden gives the prayer for the anaugaration of a Muslim president, then we can accuse him of those issues. As an American I am both saddened and extremely pissed that someone committed the atrocities of 911. As a human being I am continually incensed at ANY country's acts against my fellow man. Two wrongs do not make a right..... I do agree with one part of his statement, which disturbs me in that I do agree with whomever wrote this, but the statement that said there is basically two morals, one for us, and one for the rest of the world. I care what happens to children around the world REGARDLESS which country they reside in. No rationalization of innocent deaths at our military's hand can be made, lest we start to sound like Timothy McVeigh with his "collateral damage" remark. This ain't no football game, this is REAL. All the signs that lead to the truth are here and now.....why can't regular common sensical Americans snap to the fact that something is bad wrong????? I have a hard time figuring that out. I also wouldn't put it past our propaganda ministers in fabricating this note to bolster their crusade. Why else would the references to Muslim domination come into the rant? That is purely a western ideal is it not? Divide and conquer? And precisely the reason they hate us, our thirst for conquest, and its spoils. Corporate World (not just America) makes policy and laws for us serfs, theres seperate rules for them....is there not Kenny boy? Unfortunately the serfdom will be transcripts for whatever war they think up, and label progressive thinkers, antiwar activists, and other bohemians unpatriotic if they don't go along with the plan. Seems like they're trying to hurry the second coming, or fool the masses into believing it is indeed so just to profit. We are living at the beginning of a struggle so important, that most folks can't even envision, or refuse to see. Biochip anyone? Maybe if we force the issue Jesus will come out of the sky and save us!!!!!!! Yeah.....right.

[Tusker]

[quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]They've declared war on us and are obviously the underdogs. The only way for an underdog like that to win is by unconventional means. Those means will be nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons.[/b][/quote]Well put. And then there is the underdog strategy of getting us to turn our powerful weapons on ourselves (socially and militarily). :eek: On some level our enemy is not Bin Laden. He's just a symbol, a temporary rallying point. Killing him serves no useful purpose, unless we know which way the monster will grow thereafter. BTW, I found myself evaluating the Bin Laden letter as I read it. It's quite consistent with how the US is perceived amongst some third world communities. The Arab-Israel struggle is a powerful filter to view the world through. Which makes Bin Laden's use of it troublesome for us. Given the history we are dealing with, I don't think that we can appease the [i]radical[/i] arabs by leaning on Israel as some have suggested. Short of destroying the economy and isolating the nation, we (the west) are viewed as providing support to Israel, simply because it she is a well integrated part of the world economy. The best bet long-term is to convert into our way of thinking, the muslim populations on which Bin Laden and his people depend for fresh blood. Question is how? This is an [i]ideas[/i] war about modernity vs. history, pragma versus dogma, have versus have-not. It will be a real test of the magnificent communication and media technologies we have created. And somehow, I think the technology will fail us and we will have to fall back on old fashioned, human humane interaction. [i]Showing[/i] that we are good, instead of [i]telling[/i]. Regards, Jerry

[Anderton]

<> Remember how the Roman Empire fell: not with some spectacular attack on Rome, but with the technologically inferior Mongols eating away at the edges of an overextended empire. Meanwhile, Rome helped the process along with its own internal decay, and refusal to believe that they were anything other than invincible. Hmmm.....

[Sylver]

[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]<> Remember how the Roman Empire fell: not with some spectacular attack on Rome, but with the technologically inferior Mongols eating away at the edges of an overextended empire. Meanwhile, Rome helped the process along with its own internal decay, and refusal to believe that they were anything other than invincible. Hmmm.....[/b][/quote]An analogy that I've heard many times in the past couple of years. Maybe it's time to move to Europe ... Do they have ghosts over there?

[KenElevenShadows]

Or maybe Belize. Yes, time to move to Belize, Thailand, somewhere...

[Bunny Knutson]

Ugh. This is really disheartening. That letter is painful to read for numerous reasons. [sarcasm] But, HEY, everybody!!! We're losing our FOCUS! Remember, [b]Sadam Hussein[/b] is the big bad guy we're supposed to be worrying about right now, [b]not[/b] Osama bin Laden!!! [b](???)[/b] [/sarcasm] Is it just me, or is this whole thing beginning to look like a big lethal game of "tag." The USA is "it" and since we can't find Osama, we're just trying to "tag" the next nearest player, Sadam Hussein. Because [i]we have to tag somebody![/i] At this point, it's a witch-hunt, and Hussein is the only witch we can find.

[Kendrix]

I think Tusker brought up a key point that is most troubling to me. How is it that we intend to win the hearts and minds of the vast majority of Muslims who have not yet bought into the radical point of view? I beleive that the majority of muslims fall into this category today. Just as we forfeited the chance to build good will with the Afghans post the Soviet decline, we seem to be falling short in this regard today- on a larger scale. If the PR and intellectual war for these folks is not a top priority then we are really missing the boat. These "swing voters" must be convinced of the foley of Osamas way or else we will be fighting one head of the serpeant after another. In Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan etc. I dont get the impression that we are doing anything effectively on this front. Yet we have money, trade, a true inclination towards tolerance and a robust philosophy around democracy and freedaom at should allow us to make some friends in the world. That we cant seem to get more recognition for having fought for the Muslims and against the atrocities of the Christians in Central Europe over the past 10 years is just one symptom of what Im talking about. Maybe we need a cabinet level position of "Chief Marketing Officer". This seems like such an obvious hole in our strategy that needs fixing ASAP.

[Bunny Knutson]

[quote]Originally posted by Kendrix: [b]Maybe we need a cabinet level position of "Chief Marketing Officer". This seems like such an obvious hole in our strategy that needs fixing ASAP.[/b][/quote]Good point. And, here in the USA, one of our specialities just happens to be marketing. You'd think we could come up with [i]something.[/i] Hell, they should hire the Red Bull marketing staff. Those people must be brilliant. How else would they be able to sell a tiny little 6 ounce can of caffeine for two dollars???

[Sylver]

Marketing is just what's going on ... Selling congress that we need to go to war ... Selling the UN that unless they get inspections started again that we are going to war ... The UN selling Iraq that they will have a full scale invasion if they didn't comply with the UN mandate. George W. never intended to set foot in Iraq. He was just looking for photo-ops. Iraq buckling makes him look heroic and effective. Especially when he can't find Bin Ladin.

[RM]

I thought the Wewuss was dead, long live we the wuss... First of all, having developed a PPT or two, He needs to keep the bullets to no more than four per page, otherwise the audience will quickly begin to fidget and click their collective pens... The context of his opening statement is out of hand a usurption of the facts to which the oral traditon was scribed some hundred years after the fact... Muhammed was set upon by those enemies of his uncle...these bad asses who still ruled Mecca wanted Muhammed's head, he had fled to Medina, and with him stood the nomadic downtrodden and otherwise non proletariat clansmen... Originally, he had a couple hundred supporters who because it was them or us situation, fought off the attacking Meccan's (5 to 1 in the Meccan's favor troopwise)and low and behold, kicked there asses... That led to more conversions and the numbers soon evened then outstripped the Meccan's. Once they had enough guys and gals, they headed into Mecca...when they routed the former warlords, Mohammed simply walked past his agressors, ignored them as they assumed he would seek retribution and went to the tent where Abraham's meteroite resided... He was the enlightened master of his time not unlike Christ, Moses, Abraham, Ram, Khrisna, Lao Tzu, Confuscious, Budda(s), Quetzcoatel, Nanak and on and on and on... He swept down the local animiatic and other idols and told the folks, that God was within, and should be worshiped at heart, not in some stone image...pay attention and remeber the name of god (Al-ah)... That was one of four techniques, taught to a student by the living master...and is considered the most important... From that day on, the devotees, knew better than to have an image as a focus... The passage alludes that at some point, it was OK to strike down your neighbor, when and only as it was a them or us scenario... That, is not nor has it been the case for quite some time...and BIn Laden, has no idea of what the actual import and historicity of his faith really is, not unlike Falwell and enumerable others who believe rather than understand... The other idiocy is that Muhammed, never told anyone to head out and conquer the infidels, all of that took place after his death, and was again a fabrication of those who were NOT the living master of the time...consequently, the decisions made may have been suspect, not unlike the Paulist and Papalists of early Christendom... It seems mans grasp is fraught with and overiding ignorance...of how the inception actually occured. Oh well, Duck and cover...Eh... Rob

[surfmonkey]

[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]<> Remember how the Roman Empire fell: not with some spectacular attack on Rome, but with the technologically inferior Mongols eating away at the edges of an overextended empire. Meanwhile, Rome helped the process along with its own internal decay, and refusal to believe that they were anything other than invincible. Hmmm.....[/b][/quote]Well one problem with that analogy is that I don't think Americans feel invincible. If anything I think the majority feels the opposite post 9/11. I also don't agree with the sentiment on this thread that Americans are stupid and ill-informed. Hey, in any country there are going to be a number of jerks you don't understand what's going on and just follow blindly. But, I do think there are a ton of Americans out there who are well informed and aware of the issues. The difference being is that our society is allowed to have an open forum about such topics. Let's not forget that this is not the case in many countries of the world. Are we overextending ourselves by going into Iraq? Maybe, but I also think we are also trying not to repeat history in letting a hostile dictator gain power, while we sit idly by.