DVD Audio/DTS remixes

[Dave Bryce]

So, who's into these?

 

I got into them a few years ago, and I just think they're the best fun. I've got about twenty titles. My absolute favorite DTS remix has to be "Toy Matinee". Unreal. As far as DVD Audio, probably Brain Salad Surgery - they did a really nice job on that.

 

Of course, some of them have some interesting mixing choices. The Moody Blues "Days of Future Passed" is a bit odd in spots - some is really great, but I think some of it could have been done a bit better...Tuesday Afternoon, for example. Ugh.

 

Paul McCartney and Geoff Emerick elected to actually change the order of the songs on "Venus and Mars" for its DTS release. I hate that - some of the songs are supposed to crossfade...now it's just really abrupt. Don't know what they were thinking; but then again, now he wants to change the order fo his songwriting credits, so maybe that's just a thing with him.

 

I just ordered Danald Fagen's "Nightfly", Miles Davis' "Tutu" and "Fragile" by Yes in DVD Audio form....boy. those should be some fun.

 

So, are any of you into this sickness besides me?

 

dB

[joegerardi]

Yup, I am. I bought my DVD player (a JVC XV-D723GD) just because it was a DVD-A. Of course the first disk I bought was BSS. It's also the ONLY disk I've gotten so far. It's amazing all the things you hear that you never did before!

 

I didn't know Fragile was out on DVD-A, so, THANK YOU VERY MUCH MR. BRYCE FOR MAKING ME GO OUT TOMORROW AND SPEND MORE MONEY AT CHRISTMASTIME!

 

Ahem, sorry about that...

[Odyssian]

Originally posted by joegerardi:

[QB]Yup, I am. I bought my DVD player (a JVC XV-D723GD) just because it was a DVD-A. Of course the first disk I bought was BSS. [QB]

That's exactly what I wound up with. I now have a few titles, and also have the Yes Fragile DVD-A on order. As far as I know, these haven't shipped yet(?).

 

I was also disappointed with the Moody Blues Days of Future Passed. I feel they could have done better with this and other titles as well. In my "bland pile of discs" are the Fleetwood Mac Rumours, Foreiner titles, and others.

 

I mean, this is supposed to be the best of the best playback medium for the masses, and they aren't showing the full potential. I'm also not happy with their selection of titles. I didn't buy into this system (I also have an SACD player) to hear the Allmann Brothers. Not slighting them (I like them too), but I think the medium would initially best be served by releasing more fully produced albums like Brain Salad Surgery. That is my favorite disc so far. It has the best wow factor, and it also sounds fantastic in the not-so-wow parts. I hope as great a job has been done on the Fragile release. Here's hoping for Close to the Edge and others!

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Odyssian:

I mean, this is supposed to be the best of the best playback medium for the masses, and they aren't showing the full potential. I'm also not happy with their selection of titles. I didn't buy into this system (I also have an SACD player) to hear the Allmann Brothers. Not slighting them (I like them too), but I think the medium would initially best be served by releasing more fully produced albums like Brain Salad Surgery. That is my favorite disc so far. It has the best wow factor, and it also sounds fantastic in the not-so-wow parts. I hope as great a job has been done on the Fragile release. Here's hoping for Close to the Edge and others!

Yeah - I also am hoping for Close to the Edge. I'll be very psyched for Fragile (Tower's web site says they're in stock). I'd also be way into getting either The Lamb or Dark Side of the Moon - I've heard that DSOTM is coming, though...I also heard Sgt. Pepper's is coming.

 

Odyssian, do you have Toy Matinee? If not, get the DTS version - it's really great. To, that album fulfills the promise. Night At The Opera is also pretty good, as is Fly Like An Eagle. I also like the Welcome To My Nightmare disc. Another fave is the DTS remix of the Hell Freezes Over concert - the last tune is a bonus track not on the DVD of "Seven Bridges Road" which has a different Eagle along with their correct instrument isolated on each of the five speakers. Way, way cool. The Police Greatest Hits also gets a decent amount of play - all the Sting stuff is nice, actually...

 

I will agree, though, that the selection could be better in terms of more intense production. I'd be way interested to hear, say, a Squarepusher CD mixed for 5.1...

 

dB

[joegerardi]

Lucyyyy! You got some 'splainin' to do...

 

What exactly are "DTS remixes?"

 

..Joe

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by joegerardi:

What exactly are "DTS remixes?"

Same as DVD Audio, but with higher bit resolution (20-bit), therefore better dynamic range. It's similar to when you get a DVD movie and you have the option of hearing the soundtrack in Dolby Digital or DTS, except there is no "regular" version on the DTS audio discs - they're DTS only.

 

Most DVD players have the option of playing DTS discs - you need a receiver that is capable of decoding the signal. If both the player and the receiver have the DTS logo, you're in. I'm not sure if you have to hook up digital connections between the two to get DTS to work (I'm far from an expert in this field) but that's how I do it in my system.

 

Go to Towerrecords.com, and do a search for DVD Audio - you'll get a list of both DVD Audio and DTS discs (about 400 titles). In one or two cases (Toy Matinee, for example) there's a version for each format.

 

dB

[ksoper]

I've got certain reservations about DVD/DTS remixed audio. When I bought my dvd player, a mid-line Sony ($300), I immediately bypassed my trusty Denon single cd player, thinking that the dvd player would do it all. I was saddened to discover that the Sony wasn't nearly as warm as the Denon. I played lots of different cds, things that I knew intimately (my own mixes/masters) and some very trustworthy things. The results were the same. The dvd player just didn't sound as good as the Denon. So I put the wires back where they were.

The other problem I have, and this is with 5.1 in general, is that it sounds so obvious that things are being moved around the sound field just for the "wow and gee whiz" of it. The mixes of many movies are simply distracting to me.

And then there's the problem of mastering. I've heard too many good performances trashed in the mastering lab. (Even in the revered Masterphonics labs here in Nashville.)

My gut feeling--and I'm trying hard not to be a Luddite--is that the recordings were created in a stereo field and to go back and remix with 5 or more speakers in mind is somehow tampering with, dare I say, the original artistic vision. Now, if the recording was created in 5.1 (and I was recording in Quad back in the '70s), that's a different story. Use the technology and use it well, I say.

I love concert dvds, but even there the rear channels are used for little more than back-of-the-room ambience. It's ok, but still sounds artificial to me.

For me the jury's out.

K.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by ksoper:

I love concert dvds, but even there the rear channels are used for little more than back-of-the-room ambience. It's ok, but still sounds artificial to me.

Have you tried the Steely Dan concery video? It's great - makes excellent use of the back channels for horns 'n backing vocals and other things as well.

 

Plus, you have the option of listening to it in DTS.

 

dB

[ksoper]

Have you tried the Steely Dan concert video? It's great - makes excellent use of the back channels for horns 'n backing vocals and other things as well. dB

I admit, I've only heard parts of that concert dvd. But this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. While there's a certain coolness to having the parts seperated like that, if I had been at the show I wouldn't have heard the horns over one shoulder and the bg vox over the other. That still strikes me as audio trickery, soon relegated to the same pile we threw our old stereo test records on.

Hell, I don't know. The formats keep changing. What are we up to, 7.1? 7.2? I'm still going to hold out for a while until the dust settles. But I promise to keep an open mind.

K.

[joegerardi]

Maybe that's why BSS sounds so good to all of us: The Welcome Back tour was performed in quad, and I still have that in my head every time I hear the album.

 

I was saddened to discover that the Sony wasn't nearly as warm as the Denon.

There must be something funky with your player. I A/B'ed mine next to a CD player, and I could hear gobs more out of the DVD player, and the DVD-Audio stuff was light years ahead of CD, and they both sounded warmer and better than a standard CD player.

 

..Joe

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by ksoper:

Have you tried the Steely Dan concert video? It's great - makes excellent use of the back channels for horns 'n backing vocals and other things as well. dB

I admit, I've only heard parts of that concert dvd. But this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. While there's a certain coolness to having the parts seperated like that, if I had been at the show I wouldn't have heard the horns over one shoulder and the bg vox over the other. That still strikes me as audio trickery, soon relegated to the same pile we threw our old stereo test records on.

I see it entirely differently.

 

I see myself sitting in that room, with them all around me - that's certainly the way the video shoot looks to me.

 

Same with that Eagles disc - it sounds like they're sitting in a circle around me. Definitely not the same 2D soundstage.

 

That's why I love the 5.1 thing in general. It's 3D. You're IN the music, not just in front of it.

 

dB

[ksoper]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

I see myself sitting in that room, with them all around me - that's certainly the way the video shoot looks to me.

You're IN the music, not just in front of it.

dB

OK--this is making more sense to me. I'm trying in my mind to relate it to the headphone/ear monitor experience. I like being in the music. And something just occurred to me: I've never heard 5.1 on what I'd consider to be a good system. I don't own one. Maybe I should go down to the audiophile joint and let them blow my mind.

This is a fun topic. Really.

K.

[Odyssian]

Yes, that's how I see it too. I mean, we now have a workable medium for a great surround system (as opposed to dealing with the SQ, QS, and so on matrix stuff in the quad days). I feel the powers that be should take advantage of the medium.... I personally love the aspect of being "surrounded by the musicians", so to speak. Of course that is if the music dictates it. I don't know how I feel about the classical releases as far as that's concerned though.

[Odyssian]

Originally posted by ksoper:

I've got certain reservations about DVD/DTS remixed audio. When I bought my dvd player, a mid-line Sony ($300), I immediately bypassed my trusty Denon single cd player, thinking that the dvd player would do it all. I was saddened to discover that the Sony wasn't nearly as warm as the Denon. I played lots of different cds, things that I knew intimately (my own mixes/masters) and some very trustworthy things. The results were the same. The dvd player just didn't sound as good as the Denon. So I put the wires back where they were. (snip)

That's weird. I had the same feelings when I bought my first DVD player. It was a second generation Sony DVD player(DPS500?). I compared it to my Sony CD player (an ES model), and found that the CD player was much cleaner sounding.

 

Then one day while listening to a CD in the DVD player, I heard a bit of distortion in a PPG bell type sound (a Patrick O' Hearn CD). I then hooked up the CD player and the distortion disappeared. If I recall correctly, the distortion was also present in the DVD's headphone jack, but the CD player was clear as a bell. It was a very minimal distortion though.

[Odyssian]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Odyssian, do you have Toy Matinee? If not, get the DTS version - it's really great

Hi Dave,

No not yet. I do have a CD copy from years back (nice tunes!), but I do also plan to buy the DVD-A.

 

BTW, thanks for the tip on the up and coming releases. I wasn't aware of them. Dark Side of the Moon would be great!

[Odyssian]

That's weird, this place has Yes Fragile DVD-A listed as $13.99. Might be a misprint:

 

http://www.eavlaser.com/asp/products.asp?filter=dvd%20audio

[Steve LeBlanc]

Check out the "Night of the Opera" release by Queen...amazing.

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc:

Check out the "Night of the Opera" release by Queen...amazing.

Got it. Yeah, that's definitely one of the good ones...

 

I like the fact that they give you the option to watch the original video of Bohemian Rhapsody while you listen to the 5.1 remix. Yeah, baby...

 

dB

[BOOKUMDANO]

It's cool to listen to new works that are released in surround, but I'm especially interested in remixes of old stuff.

 

I really like the "Fragile" dvd-a and hear that Yes has already started 5.1 remixes for "Going For the One" which is my favorite. I also hope there'll be a remix of "Relayer". Last I heard, they still hadn't tracked down the right set of multitracks for "Close To the Edge" and that's why it was scrapped from the release schedule three months ago.

 

Other favs..the remixes on Yellow Submarine. "Nowhere Man" sounds so great in surround. Also the Beach Boy 5.1 mixes on "Endless Harmony". I'll grab the 5.1 of Pet Sounds the second it hits here in late January. I even like the America "Homecoming" dvd-a because it shows how well the original analog 16 track tapes held up for the remixes...really nice.

 

The release I'm really waiting for is the Beatles Anthology which has been completely remixed to 5.1. That one hits in February. George Martin and all the guys (including Harrison before he died) monitored the project and gave thumbs up. If the work on Yellow Submarine" is any indication, the Anthology will be great.

[Odyssian]

Very interesting.. thanks Dano.

 

Hi Steven, yes I also have the Queen disc. It was great hearing those songs again. Too bad the mix for vocals on The Prophet Song were just panned left and right instead of a 5.1 mix. I think I remember reading somthing about that anyway.

 

I just listened to my copy of Yes Fragile (it came today). Did anyone notice a lack of bass and overall impact in the DVD-audio tracks? I tried the DVD-A surround AND stereo tracks and they both sounded pretty weak. I then listened to the Dolby Digital tracks and MAN, the low end really came through. Too bad it loses all the oomph on the high res tracks. Oh, also I was a little bothered with the added reverb and some of the added harmonized(?) guitar effects. I think it was on "America" that the harmonizer effect was so strong that the guitar sounded borderline out of tune.

[Odyssian]

Hmmm... just thinking about my lack of bass comments. I might have to check my system settings to be sure about this. I'll have another listen in the next few days.

[Odyssian]

**Warning...Nit-picking ahead!***

 

Okay, so I couldn't wait.

 

I listened to Fragile again. South Side of the Sky in particular. I cranked the subwoofer channel and it sounded better, but I still think there is a problem with the mix. I shouldn't have to do this to make it sound full.

 

Things that I miss are the flutter echoes on Jon's voice at the end where he sings "Seems for all of Eternity......". It's there, but barely audible.

 

Another thing that I found was the (Minimoog?) transition sound effect at around 5:45 is gone. You know...the bass-y tremelo sound that comes in during the slow piano arpeggio, leading back into the verse. That's a big part of the song for me, I can't believe it's not there! It's missing on the Dolby Digital and the DVD-A 5.1 tracks, but it is there in the stereo track. Go figure!

 

There's also other effects that are changed for the worse, like in Long Distance Runaround. The guitar accents are not audible. They sound more like a wave of reverb now and not a crunchy guitar accent.

 

Oh..here's something more positive. Cans and Brahms sounds a HECK of a lot better that I've ever heard. The distortion is gone, and certain parts are MUCH more clear sounding. There's also a part or two where a bass note really comes through. Now THAT was cool.

[BOOKUMDANO]

Here's a tech tip if you're listening to multitrack dvd-a analog outs from your dvd player and you're disappointed about the sound...get a bass management box.

 

I bought the Outlaw Audio icbm box (about 250.00), plugged it inline with the dvd player analog outs, and all is great.

 

Many of you probably know about the bass management problem between receivers and dvd player analog outs....a serious problem for those who mix multitrack surround.

 

Without going into all the details, I will say that the addition of a bass management box is worth the investment in getting the surround mix that the artists intended.

[Odyssian]

Thanks, yes I've seen the Outlaw box. Since I'm a cheapskate at heart, I'm using my Fostex mixer for that duty. I plan to continue with this setup until an affordable receiver comes out with the bass management feature built in. Or if it's built into the DVD-A player, then so be it.

 

Speaking of bass management... (***Warning, soapbox approaching! )

 

If there ever was a reason for this format to fail, the industry itself will be the cause. I wish the magazines would start jabbing the manufacturers more and yes even the record companies for holding things up with their hardware shortcomings and copyright cr-rap.

 

In addition, if they REALLY had wanted to make this format work, they wouldn't have had the shortcomings of no bass management (that's like designing a car and forgetting the wheels!), they would not allow the software cos. to dictate what the hardware cos. do, the software selection would have been much better (and of higher average mix quality), and last but not least... they would not continue to charge the high prices for the software. Yes I know about re-couping R&D, etc. but in this case, I think the medium could have REALLY used a shot in the arm to make it work. That shot in the arm should've been in the form or $10-$16 discs (CD prices) from day one. In that price range, I personally believe John and Jane Q. Public would have went nuts buying all the discs available. That is what would have made the format successful.

 

All this in my opinion, of course.

[BP3]

Originally posted by BOOKUMDANO:

.

 

I really like the "Fragile" dvd-a and hear that Yes has already started 5.1 remixes for "Going For the One" which is my favorite. I also hope there'll be a remix of "Relayer". Last I heard, they still hadn't tracked down the right set of multitracks for "Close To the Edge" and that's why it was scrapped from the release schedule three months ago.

 

I believe that Eddie Offord had the multitrack masters for "Close to the Edge".