Reviewer gripe

[coyote]

Or their BEST moments! The great conductors & musicians of classical music also look quite silly when they're doing their thing. How many Bugs Bunny cartoons parodied that? And haven't the jazz greats been parodied also in their typical smoke-filled clubs? NewWave & punk were self-parodies - Talking Heads, Ramones, SexPistols anyone?

 

I like Tap - the music (though incredibly silly) is actually quite good!

 

 

Originally posted by popmusic:

True... But it parodied the bombast and pretentiousness that many big name '70s bands got themselves into. The whole bit with Stonehenge -- the subject matter, the lyrics (rhyming "where a man is a man" with "the pipes of Pan"), and the visual element (the Irish jig at the end of the song) isn't that far removed from what some '70s progressive rock band might do in their worst moments, don't ya think...?

 

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: popmusic ]

[Jim Aikin]

Originally posted by soapbox:

Gear is really the only thing that excites me these days the way progressive rock and jazz fusion used to. I guess that's because, since those styles waned, the only aspect of music that continues to evolve is timbre.

 

I know this is true for a lot of people. I think it's kind of sad.

Look at it from our perspective: we love a form of music that, at its peak, merely achieved cult status. Then, in our view, it suffered a premature death. We rarely, if ever, get a chance to hear something new in this genre we love so much. When we do, invariably critics write scathing reviews. ... However, in this case, it feels a lot like kicking someone when they're down. We're just touchy, that's all.

 

I've been thinking about this. Seems to me that one of the psychological reasons people get attached to genres is because it allows them to belong to an in-group, and to have a particular stance with reference to the opinions of outsiders.

 

If you love punk, your reaction to a critic who doesn't agree with you will be, more or less, "Fuck you. What do you know?"

 

If you love jazz, your reaction to the critic will be, "You just don't get it, man. You're not cool."

 

If you love new age, your reaction is likely to be, "Oh, I feel so sorry for you. You must be so stressed out."

 

If you love country, your reaction to a bad review will be, "If you don't love my music, you just ain't real people, that's all."

 

Seems to me folks who love prog tend to react to critics with, "Why is everybody always picking on us???" Sorry, but I suspect that's part of the attraction of prog -- that it lets you feel unappreciated.

 

--JA

[Jim Aikin]

Originally posted by coyote:

Have you EVER begun a review of someone's performance of Mozart by mentioning that "this music sounds 300 years dated. And that whole symphonic thing is a bit pompous"

 

Even folks who *today* write in the symphonic orchestral vein don't get that treatment. Their work may get blasted based on many qualities, but not on the fact that the style they choose originated 300 years ago.

 

You're using the term "symphonic orchestral" very, very loosely. If a composer today were to write in the style of Mozart, you can bet your BOOTS I'd say it sounded dated. If I bothered to review it at all, which is unlikely.

 

I did in fact criticize Keith Jarrett's recording of the Mozart piano concertos, a couple of years ago, for being pompous and slick. I said something like, "If there was a glimmer of humor anywhere in this recording, I blinked and missed it." Jarrett's recording of the Shostakovich Preludes & Fugues is luminous. His Mozart is pompous. In my opinion.

 

--JA

[Jim Aikin]

Originally posted by synthguy:

... the only progger I'm aware of that even Jim Aikin respects - and I'm not sure of that - is Keith Emerson. I'm sorry, but the only way that prog rock is a laughable dinosaur only fit for ridicule, is if classical music is only for morons.

 

I was never an ELP fan. I loved Gentle Giant, though. And I'm still knocked out by Frank Zappa, who was totally prog by almost any definition I can think of. What interests me, above all, is music that is intelligent. Playing 5,000 notes per second is not, in itself, intelligent. Nor is playing in 11/4. Everything depends on what notes you play. ("Shut Up And Play Yer Guitar" should be required listening for any aspiring progger.)

 

Comparing prog rock to classical music is a bit facile, I think. It suggests you don't really know what's going on in a Beethoven symphony.

 

Besides, there's lots of bad classical music, but most of it is mercifully forgotten today. Have you ever listened to any Clementi? There's lots of bad prog, too. (Remember Sturgeon's Law: 90 percent of anything is crap.) Trouble is, most of it's not forgotten yet.

 

--Jim Aikin

[Synthguy]

I've noted that, yes, about 90% of the stuff the critics oooh and aaah over is crap.

 

I must finish that if a certain style of music is seen as crap, it's not the music, but...

 

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: synthguy ]

[soapbox]

Originally posted by Jim Aikin:

I loved Gentle Giant, though.

 

You just mentioned my favorite band of ALL TIME! There must be at least a dozen people at this site who love Gentle Giant. In contrast, I maybe knew a dozen people in my entire life, before coming here, who even knew about Gentle Giant.

 

Originally posted by Jim Aikin:

And I'm still knocked out by Frank Zappa, who was totally prog by almost any definition I can think of.

 

I like Zappa too...and his hero, Edgard Varese.

[tenthplanet]

Ok, I went and listened. Maybe Jim Aikin is right. I would not even call this album progressive in the sense that any prog. rockers know. Try fusion, remember fusion when it was good it was very good and when it was bad.

Imagine Utopia without Todd Rungren and you're getting the idea. I would say the opening track is definitely pompous.

This one kiddies is headed for the cut-out bin. Oh-well.

Michael

[soapbox]

Originally posted by Jim Aikin:

Seems to me that one of the psychological reasons people get attached to genres is because it allows them to belong to an in-group, and to have a particular stance with reference to the opinions of outsiders...

 

Seems to me folks who love prog tend to react to critics with, "Why is everybody always picking on us???" Sorry, but I suspect that's part of the attraction of prog -- that it lets you feel unappreciated.

 

I suppose that's possible. Personally, I can't understand why anyone would want to feel unappreciated. My main beef is that there have been few styles in history which actually encouraged unbridled creativity, and that really let musicians use their full musical vocabulary. Progressive rock and jazz fusion managed to maintain these standards for a half a dozen years or so before most were forced to choose between losing their record deals or going pop.

 

For me, my reasons for loving these styles are totally positive. Progressive rock and jazz fusion came along at a time in my life when I had learned all of the fundamentals of playing and hearing music. Those genres gave me another boost forward and really accelerated my growth. They opened new and exciting worlds to me! Once I was comfortable with those styles, I rounded out my ear training with modern classical 12-tone music and Indian quarter-tone music. Then, I graduated from college in 1980 and entered a pop world dominated by punk. The only thing left was to become a minimalist.

 

I miss those heady days of being involved in a burgeoning scene that was both helping me grow and growing with me...

 

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: soapbox ]

[soapbox]

Originally posted by popmusic:

If you really feel this way, then you either haven't given other styles of music a chance, or you aren't letting yourself accept or be exposed to new/different kinds of music... Or you're measuring things by how technically complex/impressive they are instead of how creative they are.

 

I've mentioned this quote elsewhere on these forums, but film director Louis Malle once said, "It takes a long time to learn simplicity." While I can be impressed with virtuosity (as long as it suits the music), I'm also impressed with musicians who can say a lot with the fewest number of notes possible.

 

I too am impressed with musicians who can say a lot with the fewest number of notes possible. In fact, that's what I usually strive to do these days. But that's not what I'm writing about. The key phrase which sums up what I'm trying to say is, "encouraged unbridled creativity." Yes, every style of music that has ever existed has been creative to varying degrees; but how many styles have been creative without constraints? And if you're not allowed to be complex, is that not a constraint? Then, while some styles may have tolerated unbridled creativity, how many styles actually encouraged unbridled creativity? Besides progressive rock and jazz fusion, modern classical music is the only style I can think of which has encouraged this.

 

Of course, you can be creative in a minimalist way, but being minimalist necessarily involves constraints. If you take the constraints off and head in a minimalist direction, you only have one possible outcome: "4'33" (four minutes & thirty-three seconds of silence)" by John Cage. It's been done.

 

Just to clear things up, I enjoy being creative within any context. I love most styles of music. However, I think it's sad when any style of music gets snuffed out. In this case, progressive rock and jazz fusion were styles that allowed so much freedom!

 

(Yes, I know that one can still create progressive rock or jazz fusion music or this thread would never have existed. However, as living, breathing movements, progressive rock and jazz fusion have ceased to exist!)

 

[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: soapbox ]

[Synthguy]

Okay, just to end the music feud, or close my end of it, I like a variety of styles too. Beck, Jeff Beck, The Cure, Midge Ure, Doug McClure... wait a minute. David Bowie, Roxy Music, Peter Hammill, NIN - non-evil mix, Foo Fighters, Stone Temple Pilots, Jerry Cantrell, Chris Isaacs, Kansas, Dixie Dregs, Pat Metheny, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarett, Weather Report, Eno, David Sylvan, Synergy, Tomita...

 

So in case you were wondering, my play list doesn't consist of Keith Emerson, Jordan Rudess, Dave Stewart - the real one, and Eddie Jobson bands. I do like a variety of styles, tho I only love a few. So pardon me if I consider it nonsense to say that one style is ucky, considering that most of the styles it's being compared to consist mostly of disposable music, good for three months or less.

 

Lookit, one thing you will never hear:

 

(Label executive) I want to hear a pop song unlike ANY OTHER!!

[Markyboard]

Two comments to this thread

[Markyboard]

Sorry.. I don't know what happened. Any way my two comments:

1) Burp

2) That's "Lick my love pump"

[tenthplanet]

Living, breathing movements? Well; I guess that eliminates everything.

Michael