Tascam 38 8 track-Should I get it?

[Jedi]

Thanks everyone, I'm confused, tho. I don't know jack shit about external clocks and how they help the sound of a digital workstation. Clue me in if you can :confused: :freak: :confused: . As far as the Vs is concerned, I think its day is over for me. I think I've pushed as far as I can go with the thing. I'll always keep it around for demos. It's very portable, and easy for me to work. This is not a bash at all against Roland gear, I think they make great products. The sound of the thing is just not getting it for me. Just not my sound, it took a while to understand that it just wasn't my sound. Any way, back to this external clock business. Any suggestions, like the Yamaha AW with this clock, or Radar with that clock. Or Digi 001 with this clock and these converters. I'm looking for the warmest ballsy sound I can get. Thanks again everyone, Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Lee Flier]

Jedi, I think we'd need to have an idea what your budget is, to be able to recommend something. You'd probably love a RADAR but that's a lot pricier than a lot of the other options, plus of course you'd need a mixer for it. A RADAR and a Soundcraft Ghost console would get you a long way toward the sound you're looking for... wish I had the bucks for that setup myself. Then there's outboard gear... chasing that ballzy sound can get crazy! :)

[Jedi]

Thanks Lee, My credit is good, so I guess my budget involves how much credit I can get. Last time I checked RADAR was going for $3,000. I'm scared to ask but what's the standard price for the Soundcraft Ghost. I've been thinking about upgrading my home studio for awhile, and Radar was what I was leaning towards. Then, I heard these stories about ProTools HD sounding better than anything out there. Like you said, chasing that sound can be a pain in the arse. I know, not exact quote, but I'm sure you feel my sentiments. Then, I was thinking of warming my mix down with a Cranesong Hedd to get the warmth. Like say I get the Yamaha AW, a $1,000 tube mic pre, and Cranesong Hedd, what kind of sound could that give. Or maybe doing the same thing with Digi 001 and some better converters. After all the confusion, I've been breaking down and just said "F it." If it's tape I love, then just get a tape deck. However, I see it's not that simple, and on with the round robbin' we go. Anyway, I would love to spend $1,000-$2,000. But I think I could make the strecth up to $5,000 if I had to. Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Lee Flier]

Jedi, which RADAR system are you seeing for $3,000? I thought the cheapest one was around $4,000 although maybe that is list price. Anyhow... the Ghost is around $6,000... ouch. If you're talking cheaper mixers, you might consider an Allen & Heath MixWizard, which I think is around $800. I think you'd like the sound of that better than something a Mackie, and better than mixing internally in a DAW. Anyway I have a few ideas that you could try, but another thing I should probably ask is how many tracks you need, and how many tracks you record at one time?

[-_dup1]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]Anyhow... the Ghost is around $6,000... ouch. If you're talking cheaper mixers, you might consider an Allen & Heath MixWizard, which I think is around $800.[/b][/quote]There's also some of the cheaper SoundCraft mixers which use the same mic pres as the Ghost... Sorry, don't know the models/prices offhand, although I think they're in the same range as the MixWizards.

[Jedi]

I thought I saw it at Mercenary for that price, but I could be daytrippin'(wishful thinking for broke musicians). As far as tracks....hmmmm... Well, I think I would need atleast 16 tracks. 12 at the bare, bare minimum. However, if a machine gives me the sound I want at the price of fewer tracks, I'm the type of guy that will work around the restrictions. The sound has got to come first. When I'm doing a band thing, I need anywhere from 5 to 8 tracks being recorded at the same time. When I'm doing a solo thing, I could go as small as two at the same time. What do you think? Thanks so much, it's real comforting getting advice from someone who loves analog as much as I do. Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by Hank The Cave Peanut: [b]There's also some of the cheaper SoundCraft mixers which use the same mic pres as the Ghost... Sorry, don't know the models/prices offhand, although I think they're in the same range as the MixWizards.[/b][/quote]Oh yeah that's right, the new [url=http://www.zzounds.com/love.music?p=p.SPIRW5633&f=2035]Spirit M series[/url] ! Haven't tried one, but I bet they rock! Of course, you're limited to 12 mono channels + 4 stereo... might have to do some submixing... but could be well worth it sonically.

[sign]

[quote]Originally posted by Jedi: [b]Thanks so much, it's real comforting getting advice from someone who loves analog as much as I do. Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis[/b][/quote]Oh, so you love analog? O.K. then you need a 2" 16 track. I hear everybody yelling "too expensive" already. Well, two weeks ago I sold a Telefunken M15A 2" 16 for $2K which is a high price. I spoke with David Manley recently and he has bought a Telefunken M15A 2" 24 track for $1.5K. The Telefunken is built like a tank, 190 kilo and it's probably a better machine than many Studers. "But 2" tape is much too expensive for me" you say? Well, I've bought 60 used, but in good condition, 2" Basf 911 tapes for $15 each. Once you hear a 2" 16, you'll be spoiled for ever. 2" 16 is the best sound you can get. Or get yourself a nice Tascam MSR 16 or 24, I prefer the MSR24S (Dolby S) that sounds a lot better than DBX. I have a MSR24S that's ten years old and it has never let me down and it still runs great. I've sent [b]Lee[/b] a CD with a number of tracks that were recorded with this MSR, ask her how it sounds. You love analog right? Me too!! And you must know I happen to have Nuendo, Logic Audio, Cubase SX, but man..... compared to a 2" 16 it all sounds like dogshit. Cheers, Han

[Jedi]

Thanks everyone, Lee, Thanks for that link. I'm hoping that mixer is the ticket. I've always heard good things about Soundcraft, and that price is right up my alley. Sign, Where could I get a 2" inch for those prices? Thansk bro, for all the info. Now, I'm thinking the little Soundcraft with the base model Radar(about $4,000). Yeah, Lee I was tripping. Or the little Soundcraft with a 2" tape deck. AWWWW YEAHHHHHH!!!!!!! But really, what other combinations do you guys think could work well? That Soundcraft looks very tempting so that almost looks like a done deal. Suggestions? Thanks as always, Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Lee Flier]

Jedi, Well, the bad news is the bottom of the line RADAR doesn't have any converters. The cheapest RADAR system with converters, which is the coolest thing about the RADAR, is about $6K. I'll be back later with some more ideas... got an emergency to take care of here.

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by Jedi: [b] I'm confused, tho. I don't know jack shit about external clocks and how they help the sound of a digital workstation. Clue me in if you can :confused: :freak: :confused: . [/b][/quote]A sound wave is a continuous change in atmospheric pressure, very rapidly oscillating between a little more or a little less pressure (the louder the sound, the more difference between peaks). A digital device takes snapshots of this wave at rapid intervals, just like a movie camera takes a rapid sequence of photographs to represent motion. A clock is what determines how long the time is between these audio snapshots (samples). The more accurate the clock, the better the sound all other factors held constant. Clocks in most gear are made cheaply to keep the cost down. External dedicated clocks are typically more accurate.

[Jedi]

COOL! Dan, Thanks for clueing me in on something I was clueless about. You consistently breakdown concepts for me. Thanks so much, bro. So what are some good clocks & what are they going for? Lee, Take your time. I hope your emergency isn't serious :eek: . Thanks everyone, Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Jedi]

I feel ya' Hank, Poster, Pop, Man, you're going through a lot of names. When you first posted I scrolled too fast to notice that it was you. Thanks for all your help, bro. Yeah, I am sold on analog. However, I've always considered RADAR to attempt to get some of both worlds. Like Lee said, I'm not sure if it makes sense to go analog at this level. The sound is first, but not at all costs. For example, I can deal with something that is not truly analog, but warm enough for my music(a la RADAR-I'm hoping). I love the conveniences that digital recording offers. So I guess I'm just trying to find that balance, Hank. Thanks again, Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Lee Flier]

AGGGGHHH!!! Jedi, you will never find anything cooler than [url=http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=917451343]this[/url] . Boy I wish I had the bucks. :mad:

[Jedi]

Lee this actually might be do-able. What else would I need? Would I need that Soundcraft Mixer? Anything else vital? I've got mics, mic pres, yadda yadda. Thank you, Thank you, Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Lee Flier]

OK, back to the real world now... Honestly, it's going to be difficult to get the sound you want for 5K or less. Even with the prices of analog rigs coming down it takes $10-20K to get a really good quality analog setup. And digital isn't much cheaper, by the time you got a RADAR, or some other HDR + decent converters, plus the mixer. And then you'll need outboard gear - no plugins. :D BUT if you want to get closer to "that sound" and stay within your budget, here are a few ideas for combinations of stuff: 1) Yamaha 2816 + Lucid external clock + either Empirical Labs FATSO (better than Cranesong HEDD for analog simulation) OR a studio quality 2-track analog deck like [url=http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=919747896]this[/url] , which is cheaper than a FATSO and it'll give you a taste of real analog sound, as well as what it's like to maintain a deck. Plus you can use it for a killer delay and/or a mixdown machine. 2) The Soundcraft board and the RADAR, which would put you up around $7K. I think though that the other standalone HDR's like the Mackie, Alesis and TASCAM models are cheaper than the RADAR. Yeah the converters don't sound quite as much like analog as the RADAR, but the Soundcraft should help you out in that regard. You could check into this combo and probably stay under $5K. 3) The full analog deal - Soundcraft desk and 8 or 16 track recorder which you can probably get for less than $5K. Again, if you do go with the analog console, you've gotta deal with buying outboard gear (if you don't have things like a reverb unit, compressors, etc.), lack of recall, etc. If you want to try out a cheap analog setup you could go for the Soundcraft and try to find a TASCAM deck locally and see what that does for ya. But, the Yamaha + good clock should give you a big improvement for around the same price, and then you could get a cool 2-track deck to give you some of that analog flavor. I know - too many choices. :D

[Jedi]

Thanks Lee, Damn straight, way too many choices. I'm going to give this kid of mine a bath and go to bed. I'll get back tomorrow. Thanks a million for all your help, Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by Jedi: [b]Lee this actually might be do-able. What else would I need? Would I need that Soundcraft Mixer? Anything else vital? I've got mics, mic pres, yadda yadda. [/b][/quote]Wow, you might actually get that Ampex deck? Oh, DUDE. You would never be the same once you heard that thing. It is simply the Holy Grail of analog sound, IMO. Well, that and a big Amek or Neve or API or Trident console. :) Yes you would need a mixer. If you've got mics and pres, and any outboard effects you want to use (compressors, reverb, etc.) that's all you'd need. Well, I take it back. You need a mixdown deck of some sort. That means either a 2 track analog deck, a DAT machine, a Masterlink, or a computer with a decent sound card and any 2-track 24 bit recording software (Sound Forge, Cool Edit, etc.) Also keep in mind if you really are serious about getting into a 2" deck: 1) Gotta learn something about maintaining them, and gotta align, demag and clean the heads regularly. That means you have to invest in a demagnetizer and alignment tapes (although it's possible the alignment tapes may come with the deck). New alignment tapes alone can run $500. I don't know what demagnetizers go for these days. I doubt that little Soundcraft has an onboard tone generator either, so you'd have to get one... but I don't think those are too expensive. 2) Those things suck some serious power and throw off some serious heat. Don't be surprised if you have to buy a separate air conditioner for your studio if you have a 2" deck in it. I'm not kidding. 3) Although sign is obviously finding some good deals on used 2" tape, new reels of tape can cost over $100 a pop, and it'll give you around a half hour of music at 15 ips, 15 minutes at 30 ips! You can record over them a few times but not many without really degrading the sound. Also if you're going to do any editing, you'll need an editing block, and even those can run a couple of hundred bucks, unless you can find one used. So... it's not a trivial investment in time OR money. But man... the sound... (slapping forehead).

[Jedi]

Ok, I gave my son a bath, and I'm back heart pumping. I know what you mean about sound, but damn Lee the thing sounds like a headache. I've got the Dat machine, I'm not using much reverb, but I still have a couple of units around, I've got one decent pre and I plan to get more, I'm cool for mics, but editing block :confused: , I think I can grab a demagnetizer from my Dad, but my electric bill is already off the hook, and aligntment tapes :confused: , tone generator :confused: :confused: , 15 or 30 minutes of music and I can't overdub that much, I'm good but I don't know if I'm that good. If you haven't guessed, I'm more than a little intimidated. I might have to pass on this one, and atleast know what to look for if another one pops up. I might go with the 2-track analog with the Yamaha with a ext. clock. I don't know. The unfortunate thing is I have to do something. Maybe, I'll just rent out a studio first. ARRRRGHHHH. As much as I detest working on the clock, that might be the best place to get some music recorded, and at the same time figure out the best way to make my move. Music is one pain in the ass mistress, Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Lee Flier]

Jedi, you can overdub and punch in all you want, it's editing you can't do much of. You know, I know a guy in your neck of the woods that knows quite a lot about those decks and may even have one for sale... he's the kind of guy that would probably really go out of his way to help you get going, if you really wanted to get into that territory. He probably also has all the tools you would need and/or would know how to get you hooked up with them pretty cheap. So maybe you want to get together with him and have a chat... I can put you in touch with him if you're interested. Learning to do, for example, alignment and demagging, is not at all a big deal but it's much easier if you have someone actually there to show you. Personally I always had a lot of fun tinkering with different alignment specs and seeing the effect it had on the sound to really slam the tape, etc. You have to be a bit of a geek to want to get into this stuff, but it's fun if you approach it with the right attitude. If all you're looking to do is get your music down and focus on the creative part, you're probably better off with a quickie digital rig or like you say, renting an analog studio. You can maximize the use of your studio time by doing a lot of preproduction on your DAW at home, then cut the basic tracks, transfer them to your DAW, do preproduction on the overdubs (like figuring out guitar and vocal and keyboard arrangements), then go back to the studio for overdubs and mixing. If you have a decent DAW you could even do your overdubs at home, sync up to the analog deck and mix out through an analog desk, if the studio has the facilities to do that. IMO the combination of analog bass/drums/electric guitar tracks + digital vox/acoustic instruments/keyboards, mixed out on an analog board, is quite amazing. If you are going to go that route then all you'd need is some native DAW software like Sonar, Cool Edit Pro, DP or what have you, a good sound card with good converters (I happen to really like my Digital Audio Labs CardDeluxe), plus your mic/pre chain. You'd do your basic tracks at the studio, get a submix of the tracks to take home, and do your overdubs. Very cool setup if you can find a good studio to work with, that has a 1" 8 or 2" 16 track and can sync it with a hard disk recorder. Great, just what you needed, more choices! :D

[Jedi]

Very sound advice, folks. I do like the engineering aspect some, well, to be honest I like the control, and I love working for hours in the night at home. However, I must do what is in best interest for the music. Still, Lee hook me up with your friend. I'm still not totally unsold on the analog thing. PM me when you can. Thanks so much guys. Now, really, I am taking my ass to bed, Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis P.S. -This is so fitting. Tomorrow is my first day on a new job(Teaching again), and I'm spending all night trying figure out what is best for my musical endeavors. I'm an artist damnit, how tragic, how beautiful. Thanks again.

[KenElevenShadows]

As I've pointed out -- and now Craig -- the Akai sounds really great, but you do have to get someone who knows how to service them (they're difficult to work on), and you have to have access to their proprietary (and expensive) tapes. If you have found both of these, as I have, then it's not a bad thing at all, esp. since you get the board with it. Every single one of my CDs have been recorded on one of these except for the Dither CD. Everyone who records here prefers the sound of the Akai to the Digi001/Pro Tools LE set up, although some will still choose the Digi001 for monetary reasons. The Tascam 38 is a fairly durable machine, and if you have decent gear, board, etc., there is absolutely no reason why you cannot get a decent sound on it. It's not necessarily lo-fi unless you want it to be. "Sweet Dreams" by the Eurhythmics sounds pretty good, and that was recorded on a Tascam 38. I've used the machine before, and can get a decent bottom end out of it. Also bear in mind the other Tascam unit that I mentioned in the previous thread, which I think is the 388. It's the 8-track 1/4" (I think) r-t-r with built-in mixing board. That doesn't sound bad, either, and you can get those for a smile. One thing that you can do is you can make multiple mixes on your analog set up, and then make quick stereo edits on a computer, if you have that capability. I do this all the time, and it gives you quick editing capability without using a razor blade. Also, bear in mind that one cannot edit easily on the Akai because of the proprietary tape format (it looks a lot like Sony Beta videocassette) and it does not play backwards, unlike all the other formats mentioned here. If you do opt for the Akai, do not get the MG1212, but rather the MG1214 unless you plan on bypassing every single mic preamp. The mic preamps suck on both these models, but they *really* suck on the MG1212 (noisy, hiss like steam kettles!). It's a really good idea to bypass the mic preamps on either unit, though, and almost any mic preamp made today will be better quality than the Akai mic preamps. Bypass the line input, too, by putting your inputs into the receive inserts (each channel has one), and that'll help you out as well. The Akai, and a lot of these other formats, will give you serious bottom end, and if you put forth a decent amount of effort and have a decent signal path, you will seriously smoke most cheap DAWs (Digi001, etc.), especially in depth, warmth, and bottom end, in my humble opinion.

[Jedi]

Thanks Ken, I didn't even have to PM you. Your approach has got me thinking though. I've got a really dumb question everyone? If I'm going from the digital s/pdif out of my mic pre to my digital in on the Roland, will I be bypassing my shitty converters? Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Lee Flier]

Jedi, Yes. :) Although you will still have to deal with shitty data compression and a shitty clock. :D I presume you don't have the VS2480, that does have better converters than the previous VS machines. Hey, I've got lots of good info from my friend with the Ampex machine for sale, I'll be PM'ing ya right away!

[Jedi]

Thanks Lee, I've been doing that with my mic pre lately and things sound better. Unfortunately, I still can't get no satisfaction :D . Maybe, if I got the Yamaha and did the same thing I would be satisfied. Who knows? Lincoln Ross Dead Black Jedis

[Lee Flier]

Jedi, Well, I don't know what kinda pres you have, but the converter in the pre might suck too. It's a crapshoot. Actually the converters in the Yamaha boxes are pretty darned good. The clock, however, sucks. In fact I'm starting to be convinced that ANY inexpensive DAW or digital mixer would be greatly improved by a good external clock. Jitter is one of the leading causes of digital crappiness. The Lucid GENX96 clocks are around $350 and, if you end up staying in the digital realm, you definitely should get one. Having a tube or two in the chain, a ribbon mic here or there, and good compression will go a long way toward making your digital recordings sound more "analog-y" also.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [b]The Akai, and a lot of these other formats, will give you serious bottom end, and if you put forth a decent amount of effort and have a decent signal path, you will seriously smoke most cheap DAWs (Digi001, etc.), especially in depth, warmth, and bottom end, in my humble opinion.[/b][/quote]I must confess, looking back at my previous post, I am overstating the bottom end a bit. *SERIOUS* bottom end from these things, no; *GOOD* bottom end, yes. *SERIOUS* bottom end comes from, say, a 16-track 2" or one o' dem fancy 8-track 2", but certainly not from the Akai or these other formats. The bottom end will generally always be a lot fatter, fuller, warmer, and deeper than a low-budget DAW, such as the Digi001, though.

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by nhcomp45@aol.com: [b]A friend has two of those Akai 12 tracks and they are quite a bag of worms. Tempermental hard to align mechanically and electronically. Very poor headstack arangment and you have to use their cartrages which makes tape choice non existant.[/b][/quote]Mine had problems with the tape transport as you mentioned until I got a tape transport modification from VST in Pasadena. That was about 7 years ago, and I've never had a problem since. The modification is the same as the transport that exists in the rackmount Akai (14D, I think?). For those who don't know, the rackmount Akai is just the tape machine itself without the mixing board. VSTAkai@aol.com for more info, or call (626) 794-8196 They are difficult to work on, so you better get someone who can service these things correctly. Tapes are difficult to come by. It's a dead, archaic format with its proprietary tapes, and that proprietary format is what did in the Akais, or they probably would have sold much better. They used to list for US$9000 when they came out in the mid-'80s, often discounted to $7000. Now, you can get one used for US$300 (or maybe less). They sound great, but you have to put up with difficult-to-obtain tapes (I buy mine through VST), servicing (service it at VST), and you cannot edit or play tapes backwards. As mentioned previously, I edit on my Digi001 instead by making multiple mixdowns and then editing them together.