Dr Teeth Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 I am a little confused: I know what poliphony is (almost) But I dont know what multi timbral parts are????? and, how a sampler poliphony is measured? a single sample is a voice? Rebuilding My Self Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postman Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 Originally posted by LatinMusic: I am a little confused: I know what poliphony is (almost) But I dont know what multi timbral parts are????? and, how a sampler poliphony is measured? a single sample is a voice? I'll take a stab. Polyphony briefly defined is measured as the maximum number of sounds of any description that a unit can produce at one time. A unit is multi-timbral if it can play more than one timbre at a time. What's a timbre? For a sampler or sample player, it is defined as a single digital audio recording: a sample. A given unit has only so many processes (not to be confused with processors, i.e., chips) to play back samples. This limits the number of samples that can be played back simultaneously to the number of processes available. Playback of samples are typically triggered by pressing a key on a keyboard. Having one key trigger the playback of one sample is possible, but you can also set up most units to have one key trigger the playback of more than one sample. If you have it set up so that pressing a single key on the keyboard triggers the playback of two samples, two of the available processes will be used every time you press a key. This will cut polyphony in half. See? Notice that if you split the keyboard between the samples, you retain maximum polyphony. Synthesizers are more complex because the definition of a timbre depends a lot on the synth's architecture. Typically a synth offers a series of oscillators that the programmer can combine to create a timbre (or voice). There's a limit to the number of processes (I'm talking digital synthesis here) available to produce these voices just as there is a limit on the number of processes available to playback the samples in a sampler. Polyphony is effected the very same way. In both cases polyphony is directly related to the number of timbre producing processes available. It's not necessarily one to one because some manufacturers might define a basic timbre as being (I don't know) four layered samples. But since they can't be played seperately, they don't count those as four separate voices for polyphony. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpel Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 And I'll take a very simplistic stab at it that might help clear up the basic meaning of multi-timbral for you: Multi-timbral simply refers to a keyboard's ability to play more than one of its tones at a time, as Postman has explained very wonderfully. In practical terms, this just means that your keyboard can play a piano part, a drum part, a bass part, a sax part, etc., all at once, thus becoming a one instrument band when you're using a sequencer and you have a different midi channels (1-16 typically) assigned to each different tone you're using. Different synths have different terminology for this. If this is so obvious as to be dumb, I apologize. From your question it seemed like maybe you didn't get the basic idea of multi-timbral. Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwisniewski Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 I'll take a stab at it too since this is one of those questions that's as hard to answer as it is to figure out. As I'm a beginner to this, I'll explain it in beginner's terms: Polyphony refers to how many notes a device can play at the same time. If my synth has 16 note polyphony and I'm playing a piano patch, I can only press 16 piano keys at the same time. If I press a 17th key, you won't hear it. Multi-timbral refers to a synths ability to play more than one patch. With a multi-timbral synth you can layer the sounds together so that a single key press plays both the piano and string patch. Another way to take advantage of multi-timbral synths is to send MIDI messages that tell it to play a piano, string, and drum patch all at the same time. In contrast, a mono-timbral synth can only play one patch at a time. If you want to play a piano and strings you have to choose one or the other. By the way, in a multi-timbral synth with 16 note polyphony, if you sound a string note and a piano note at the same time, you'll be using up 2 of the 16 notes possible. It can get more complicated but that's the general idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Lozada Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 Sorrym this will go in spanish just to make the point a little bit clearer for Edgar: 1) POLIFONIA: Significa que tu teclado puede ejecutar un numero máximo de NOTAS ya sea del mismo "patch" o "timbre" o de varios si acaso tu teclado es multitímbrico. Quiero decir que si tocas SOLO un sonido de PIANO y tu teclado tiene polifonia MAXIMA de por decir, 32 NOTAS o 32 OSCILADORES, si tu "patch" de piano usa solo un oscilador por nota podrás tocar 32 notas sin "robar" voces, un efecto bastante desagradable. Si tu patch es de 2 osciladores, el máximo será 16 notas y así... si el teclado es MULTITIMBRICO además de todo, entonces la polifonía dependerá del número de notas no solo tocadas en el teclado, sino en su total, las que toques y las que estén siendo controladas vía MIDI... o sea si tu teclado es polifónico a 32 voces y estas tocando sobre una secuencia que incluya bajo y batería, seguramente en un momento dado estarás usando al menos 4 o 5 notas de la polifonía total solo para el "comp" ... dejando menos notas disponibles... Bendito sea Dios, la mayoría de los teclados ahora traen polifonías impresionantes y los que traen pocas voces, son teclados pensados en usarlos sólo para voces LEAD... no para hacer arreglos completos. 2) MULTITIMBRICO: Para ponertelo fácil significa que tu teclado podrá generar al mismo tiempo diferentes "patches" controlados por su secuenciador o via MIDI, o sea, en el canal MIDI 1 Piano, en el 2 Bajo, en el 3 batería, etc... por ejemplo, el famosísimo DX7 NO era multitímbrico a pesar de tener ya MIDI. Digo, ya lo habían dicho perfectamente en Inglés, pero quise ponerlo en español... Sorry Dave... just a part of the servide to the community... er... corner http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Un abrazo ! ------------------ Gustavo G Lozada Moderador de: MusicPlayer.com/NuestroForo "La voz en Español en Música y Tecnología" GusTraX @yahoo.com Músico, Productor, Ingeniero, Tecnólogo Senior Product Manager, América Latina y Caribe - PreSonus at Fender Musical Instruments Company Instagram: guslozada Facebook: Lozada - Música y Tecnología www.guslozada.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwisniewski Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 Multi-lingual, multi-timbral http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 Originally posted by GusTraX: Sorry Dave... just a part of the servide to the community... er... corner http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif No problemo, mi hermano. Gracias, con mucho gusto. Sorry if my Spanish is lame...hey, I'm trying... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Teeth Posted August 21, 2001 Author Share Posted August 21, 2001 Hey amigos!!! You are great!!! Thanks Gus for make it more clear... And thank dave for beeing comprensive. Well in my 01/W it is possible to assign a midi channel for each track. But the effect must be the same for every sound... I am wrong? Rebuilding My Self Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Teeth Posted August 21, 2001 Author Share Posted August 21, 2001 When a Key boad has nor a sequencer how it could manage multiple sounds? Rebuilding My Self Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 Originally posted by LatinMusic: Hey amigos!!! You are great!!! Thanks Gus for make it more clear... And thank dave for beeing comprensive. Well in my 01/W it is possible to assign a midi channel for each track. But the effect must be the same for every sound... I am wrong? No, I'm pretty sure that you are right as far as the O1/W is concerned. Only a very few machines will let you use different effects on different programs in multi-timbral mode - as a rule, that requires multiple on-board fx processors, and/or multiple busses/fx sends. The best one that I know of is the SuperNova - 7 effects per channel over 8 channels, totalling 56 effects, IIRC (!!!). I'm guessing that the fx are modelled in the Novation stuff, as is the sound generation. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwisniewski Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 I vote that we try to explain it in a third language, let's try it in Japanese, we could probably just copy it out of the a Yamaha manual somewhere ... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Ko Ni Chi Wa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 Originally posted by mwisniewski: I vote that we try to explain it in a third language, let's try it in Japanese, we could probably just copy it out of the a Yamaha manual somewhere ... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Ko Ni Chi Wa O ginki des ka, wisniewski-san... Domo arigato gozaimas! dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postman Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 Originally posted by LatinMusic: When a Key boad has nor a sequencer how it could manage multiple sounds? It depends what you consider a sound. Let's say we take an oboe sample, a grand piano sample, and a contrabassoon sample and set up our unit so that all three play together (same pitch, I hope) when a key is pressed on the keyboard. You may consider the resulting mix of the three instruments a single sound, and you'd be right -- in this case that's how the unit is being used. However, synth and sampler manufacturers don't; they consider it three sounds. Each of those three sounds is considered a separate timbre. So, the unit is considered multi-timbral. Whether the note-on information comes from one channel (including a built-in keyboard) or from several channels (like from a sequencer) is irrelevant. This message has been edited by Postman on 08-21-2001 at 03:52 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted August 22, 2001 Share Posted August 22, 2001 Originally posted by Postman: Let's say we take an oboe sample, a grand piano sample, and a contrabassoon sample and set up our unit so that all three play together (same pitch, I hope) when a key is pressed on the keyboard. You may consider the resulting mix of the three instruments a single sound, and you'd be right -- in this case that's how the unit is being used. However, synth and sampler manufacturers don't; they consider it three sounds. Each of those three sounds is considered a separate timbre. So, the unit is considered multi-timbral. Gotta disagree with you here, Postman. While you are technically correct, the way that I understand the accepted meaning of multi-timbral as relates to synths is that the synth in question is able to play multiple programs at the same time, not just multiple samples. Usually (but not always - see Korg) each one is expected to have its own discrete MIDI channel assignment, whether playing the same stacked part or different parts. If I am playing a single program consisting of a piano layer, a choir layer, and a synth layer, I do not believe that is considered to be multi-timbral in the synth world. If, on the other hand, I have a choir program, and piano program, and a string program, and I am either triggering them all at once from a keyboard or playing them as separate parts via a sequencer or whatever, that would be considered multi-timbral in the synth world. The exception to the rule is Roland, who have that whole part/tone/timbre/program/performance thing going on - AFAIK, no other manufacturer uses that nomenclature. Let me say once again that your definition is technically correct - I just do not think that's what most folks mean when they say it, nor how they interpret it when they hear it. Otherwise, if you had an analog synth with two oscillators, each one generating a different waveform, that would be considered multi-timbral - and it isn't. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postman Posted August 22, 2001 Share Posted August 22, 2001 Originally posted by Dave Bryce: The exception to the rule is Roland, who have that whole part/tone/timbre/program/performance thing going on - AFAIK, no other manufacturer uses that nomenclature. Wow, you're good! I do come from the Roland side of the world. And now that I think about again, I think you're right. By my definition, the DG8 would be considered multi-timbral, and I don't consider it so. Looking back (way back) I remember that the the term was coined to describe a unit's ability to play more than one part of an arrangement recorded on a sequencer. I'm thinking that's still the best definition. So, I'll try again: a multi-timbral instrument is one that is designed to be used with a sequencer as a composer's or arranger's tool. In which case, LatinMusic, sorry to confuse you. I got too caught up in my computer geek definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwisniewski Posted August 22, 2001 Share Posted August 22, 2001 Originally posted by Dave Bryce: O ginki des ka, wisniewski-san... Domo arigato gozaimas! dB Rats! All the japanese web translators give it back in Kanji script. Anyway, here's my reply in French http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Je prendrai un coup à lui trop puisque c'est un de ces questions il est aussi difficile de répondre que car il doit figurer dehors. Car je suis un débutant à ceci, je l'expliquerai en termes du débutant: Polyphony se rapporte combien de notes un dispositif peut jouer en même temps. Si mon synth a la note 16 polyphony et je joue une connexion de piano, je puis seulement appuyer sur 16 touches de piano en même temps. Si j'appuie sur une 17ème touche, vous ne l'entendrez pas. Multi-timbral se rapporte à une capacité de synths de jouer plus d'une connexion. Avec un synth multi-timbral vous pouvez poser les bruits ensemble de sorte qu'une presse principale simple joue le piano et la connexion de chaîne de caractères. Une autre voie de tirer profit des synths multi-timbral est d'envoyer les messages du MIDI qui l'indiquent jouer un piano, une chaîne de caractères, et une connexion tous de tambour en même temps. En revanche, un synth mono-timbral peut seulement jouer une connexion à la fois. Si vous voulez jouer un piano et des chaînes de caractères vous devez choisir un ou l'autre. D'ailleurs, dans un synth multi-timbral avec la note 16 polyphony, si vous retentissez une note de chaîne de caractères et une note de piano en même temps, vous épuiserez 2 des 16 notes possibles. Il peut devenir plus compliqué mais c'est l'idée générale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted August 22, 2001 Share Posted August 22, 2001 Si vous parlez la langue français naturellement (sans une programme de traduction), je suis trés...qu'est-ce qu'on dit en français...j'oublie la mot...ah, oui...impressionné. C'est formidable! dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwisniewski Posted August 22, 2001 Share Posted August 22, 2001 Well I'm happy to say, I play the piano much better than I speak French http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Teeth Posted August 22, 2001 Author Share Posted August 22, 2001 Dont even think postman... Every reply teach something (except the french and janese one) http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif this the wonderful think of this virtual community everybody has something to teach and to learn, thank you all... long live to musicplayer. Rebuilding My Self Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Lozada Posted August 22, 2001 Share Posted August 22, 2001 Konnichiwa ! Je ne suis parlez la langue francais sans une programme de traduction; je suis naturellement incompetent http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif Pero eu posso falar um poquinho de portugues tambem! oba ! Ah Cielo santo... Ya ves lo que siempre provocas, Edgar? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Domo Arigato Gozaimas... Músico, Productor, Ingeniero, Tecnólogo Senior Product Manager, América Latina y Caribe - PreSonus at Fender Musical Instruments Company Instagram: guslozada Facebook: Lozada - Música y Tecnología www.guslozada.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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