LONG Rant about the agony of buying a new synth

[Magpel]

What follows is excessively long. Embarrassingly long. If you're really not in the mood to get deep inside someone else's incoherent and tortured decision making process, I encourage you to tune out now. If you got a minute and a sympathetic disposition, read on. I am about to indulge my exasperation publicly. Also, scroll down a bit and you will get to a fairly detailed account of my hour with the Motif, if that is of interest to you.

 

For a while I've wanted a second keyboard of the non-weighted type to complement my QS 8, the wieghted action of which is sometimes a pain for me. In the past, I've considered everything from buying a straight controller to getting the mangled keyboard of my archaic Roland U20 fixed up (my first synth was not a synth!). But I settle on the opinion that this new controller should have some usable onboard sounds that serve my needs and complement my existing gear. A little bit of overlap, or a lot, is acceptable and to be expected.

 

It's also significant that I'm pretty well into softsynths and samplers. I use gigasampler, soundfonts, and a small variety of the softsynths. However, my computer setup is somewhat underpowered to take this stuff very far right now, and I am not deeply invested in the really high quality gigasampler libraries, though I like what I have and covet more. Therefore, its always an option to spend my resources on upgrading computers and buying into the great assortments sample libraries out there.

 

My musical needs: Bread and butter for me is pianos, Eps, organs, drums, and a strong interest in high quality solo brass, reed and string sounds. Recently, Ive been getting more and more into synth sounds, but Im no purist there. Most of the standard synth preset patches dont thrill me (probably because I dont really know what to do with them) but I love to work on my own sounds, and I love real-time control of filters, envelopes, and effect parameters. To me, synth sounds are still a new frontier that Im getting pleasantly lost in.

 

I bought a Roland RS 5 last week and took it back this week. It fit my bill perfectlycheap as dirt, non-weighted, a handful of sounds that are better than anything else I have in their department, and nice realtime control features. But it left me feeling empty and like I had rushed the decision. The sounds dont kill me, thats just not the way you want to feel about a new instrument. I decided I want something more advanced.

 

Tonight I got to try out my two main contenders side by side for a little over an hour. The two instruments couldnt be more different: The Motif 6 and the Korg Z1. I left the store fairly loving them both, but nowhere near a decision. I fear this decision even. The Motif is strong in the areas that I know I use (real instrument samples) but this is also the area in which the gigasampler blows most everything else away, if youve got the system for it and money enough for the high qaulity collections. The Z1, well that would be a crazy choice for me, but it has allure. Im still in the shallow end of the synth pool. Its like, hmmm, I loved my first taste of onion, so I guess I should live in an onion house and where onion clothes. Still, I have the feeling about the Z1 that it would be vibrant instrument for a long time to come, and that it would school me.

 

Motif: to me the many, many features of this thing are actually a drawback, as I have no need of a sequencer and a sampler (esp. a sampler that starts at 4MB RAM and maxes out at 64MB. Hell I have giga snares that use 64 MB. And SIMMS? What the hell were they thinking?) Im sure I would find a way to use those features and maybe grow to love them, but it seems wasteful to spend my money on them. Still, in the 1,700 range, the keyboard can sell itself on sounds alone. My impressions:

 

Pianos are nice, a bit bright for my tastes, but definitely high qaulity. Even the Dark preset was a bit bright for me. But theyre pretty rich and pristine in their own way. I certainly wouldnt rate them any lower than the QS 8 pianos, and while I love the Gigapiano, it is so resonant that it is often a bitch to mix witha kind of specialty piano that shines in settings in which it is the show. Not a team player. So pianos are a small plus for the motif

 

Eps: Very strong. In fact, to my ears better than the QS 8s, which is saying something. They too are brighter, a little hyped but not brittle. Clavs also very strong and playable. (interestingly the Z1 has some clavs that are thick and juicynothing digital sounding about them).

 

Organs: Good, warm. Hard to tell in such a short time.

 

Solo strings: a real glaring STRENGTH on this board, far better than anything I have presently. Expressive, but not comically outfitted with too much vibrato. I got stuck on the solo violin for a long time, and the cool thing is that, played in the lower register, it sounded better than the cello presets.

 

Solo brass/reed: not quite as stunning as the strings, but still better than most anything else Ive got. (strings and brass, imo, are not a strength of the QS 8). One of the solo trumpets was lovely, and one of the flutes had tremendous velocity layering, another solo acoustic instrument that you can just get lost in. Wonderful. Saxes left a little to be desired, but when dont they? I want Nick Phoenixs Quantum Brass collection.

 

Of course, the issue for me here is, if I put this money toward the gigasampler, I believe I can get the best acoustic instrument sounds available anywhere at the moment. But they aint cheap, they entail a processor upgrade for my computers, and they dont provide me with a non-weighted controller, so the Motif still scores well for me here. The future is samples that stream from the hard drive, but maybe Im not fully ready for the future yet.

 

Drums: Not a strong point of the Motif, to my tastes. I like earthy drums sounds that are extravagant in their use of velocity layers. Anyhing to fool my well-schooled drumming fingers into believing in the reality of stick and skin. I would take the ROM devoted to any entire bank of synths and spend it on a single, exquisitely playable kit. I also like to see more sample memory allocated to latin percussion to make them dynamic and playable, not mere one-tone indicators of ethnic. I want shakers you can feel with your fingers. The drums on the Motif had very big modern sound, whether that be the cavernous rock kits or the 12,000 varieties of elctronic and hip hop kits. See, the Motif is certainly a trendy board, no attempt to hide it, and for me, thats to its detriment. The silver lining, however, is that theres a series of drum presets devoted to each individual drum , and among the snares, I found some very nice layered samples indeed, so I suspect I could build a kit or two to my liking.

 

Synths: well, again, Im no one to trust in reviewing these. Were they phat? Did they squelch and sizzle? Not sure. They covered the typical range. I didnt get much of acchance to listen to the sonic imprints of the filters, resonance, etc. Those features are not as on the surface as on the Z1. Leads sounded pretty good. Pads, I dont really like pads too much, so dont trust me. They cetainly sounded rich and evolving. When I find a pad sound I like, I always like to shorten the attack to see how it plays as a real sound

 

The rest is all riff raff and multi-functionality. No time to explore the integrated sampling sequencer, the arpeggoator (which I accidentally triggered a few times, much to my chagrin).

 

Keybed: start contrast to the Z1,which is soft and borders on flabby. The Motif is hard and tight but not exceedingly so. I think I might overall prefer the feel of the Z1, but the Motif is fine also.

 

Verdict? Sigh. No verdict. The Motif would serve me well as nothing but a collection of good tweakable sounds and a non-weighted controller. I wish thats all it were. Not a trendy modern music making tool.

 

Z1 time. Phew. What an odd bird. The X-Y pad is a thing of beauty. I cant say much about it except a very subjective that the machine is way over my head, my seductively so. Should a guy whi just wants a good cello buy a Z1. The answer is yes, but only because the message the Z1 sends me, youre never going find that good cello until you pay a good cellist. Give up the foolish pursuit of realism and invent some sounds.

 

Should I get the Motif? (take me a while to save for)

Should I get the Z1 (can almost afford it now, and I sense a groundswell onf interest in them, so maybe Id better before they disappear).

Should I pick upo a cheap controller and continue investing in DAW-based synths and samplers.

 

Im done. Responses are unnecessary but appreciated.

[joegerardi]

Magpel:

Well thought-out commentary. I enjoyed reading it.

 

Tough call. The only 2 things I can add are these:

First:

It seems that the Z1 might have been calling out to you.

youre never going find that good cello until you pay a good cellist. Give up the foolish pursuit of realism and invent some sounds.

 

Sometimes a synth's sounds, interface, or feel will "speak" to us. You had a synergistic moment with it there, at least, that's what it reads like.

 

Second:

Reading what you are looking for, it would behoove you to go play a K2500. zZounds has B stock for less than the Motif, and it sounds like there's a lot of the 2500 in what you describe.

 

At least consider it.

 

..Joe

 

This message has been edited by joegerardi on 08-15-2001 at 10:42 PM

[joegerardi]

Insomnia sucks...

 

This message has been edited by joegerardi on 08-15-2001 at 10:42 PM

[steadyb]

Whazzzup with the Alesis web site???

 

 

just kidding.

[steadyb]

sorry Dave,

 

that was for Joe.

[mwisniewski]

Hey Magpel, don't get it. If it doesn't grab you don't get it. If you have to agonize over it don't get it. You either need it or you don't.

 

Right now you're looking at the synths you want, but what you're really looking for is a synth you need, and apparently you don't need either of the two you mentioned.

 

Just sit tight, you might be surprised, when the right one hits you out of the blue.

 

This advice of course doesn't apply to rich people who can buy anything they want http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif But I just buy the stuff I need, it makes me a much happier person.

 

Oh, and a pre-emptive bitch slap to the person who was gonna point out we don't need any of this gear in the first place http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Dave Bryce]

Hey, John -

 

Didja try an S30? You still get that Yamaha sound set (very different from the QS), 6 (I think it's 6) different res filters, no sequencer, no sampler...plus you get that neat little card slot - you could add a VL board...or an AN board...it won't cost you that much, either.

 

Just tryin' to help...hope this doesn't add to the confusion.

 

dB

[b_3guy]

I agree with Joe if if doesn't say buy me, don't buy it. I think part of the problem is you have a good rig to start with & these 2 synths duplicate some of what you already have. Maybe you want to think in terms of an analog modeling synth with a full compliment of knobs for your sound creations. I'll tell you my Korg MS-2000 story. I had a QS-8, Hammond XK-2, Roland Sh-3, B-3, & Wurlitzer. I read the review of the MS-2000 in Keyboard mag. Thought it looked cool, knobs everywhere, they gave it the Key Buy award. Happened to be in a local music store & there it was. So I went over & played it. About 35 minutes later I came back to my senses. Never had a board grabbed me like this. About a week later I was in & there it was. I played it for an hour & a half. Sales guy says take it home. I say it's the last thing I need besides I'd rather take it to a gig I say. He says take it to a gig. I say no, I might buy it. 3 weeks later I'm in & I play it for 30 mins. I take it home & try it at a gig a couple days later. I sold my Roland Sh-3 & bought it the next week.

[Felix_dup1]

I agree that you have to connect with the synth emotionally. For B_3 guy, it was the MS2000, for me, the JP8000. For others, it's a K2000 or an MPC2000...

 

Too often nowadays I think people want to choose their synth based on specs rather than what "works" for them. I equate it to buying cars - not much difference between an Accord and a Camry, but there are people who will argue to their dying day supporting their choice.

 

Truth is, you'll make more music and better music with a keyboard that you've connected with. You'll keep it longer and get more out of it.

[Magpel]

Sage advice from you all, and I appreciate it. Let me handle a few of your observations.

 

M, I think it's safe to say I was pretty rapt by both the Motif and the Z1, but I totally hear what you're saying, and I've impressed even myself by my restraint thus far. Normally, when I'm in buying mode, I have to have it, even before I know what "it" is. I made a mistake with the RS 5, and I corrected the mistake. The only issue is that I got store credit, not cash back, for the RS 5 return, so I am certainly committed now to a new board. But there's no hurry. Thanks for the wisdom.

 

Joe, Kurzweil, interesting idea. They had a flavor of the K2500 used in the store where I was trying the Motif. It looked like an 88 key jobby, which would be overkill unless I got rid of the QS 8, but I'm going to try next time I'm there. I'm a complete stranger to Kurzweils. Also, I think both the Z1 and the Motif called out to me in a way. With the Motif, it was complicated by the fact that I'd be paying for a load of extaneous functionality. With the Z1, the doubt comes from it being simply so different from I typically need and use.

 

B-3, excellent story. The MS-2000 looks ridiculously cool to me. Unfortunately it doesn't meet my need for a controller, so it's not even in the picture, but I really like that story. I too have felt that schizm between "good sense" and the raging id that must have it. Sometimes the id knows what it's talking about.

 

Dave, I have thought extensively about the S30 with the AN and VL plugins. Around here that would bring the total to about 1200, which is very reasonable for what you get. I tinkered briefly with the S30 a couple of nights ago, not enough even to get a sense for its sound (that was my Triton night). I was concerned about the quality of the keybed. Then I read some reviews and that seems to be a common criticism of the unit. I don't need a luxurious feel by any means, but one guy said that the keyboard felt, and I quote, "dislocated from the sounds." That scared me. I know that feeling from playing softsynths with a little too much latency, and its enough to create an aversion to the instrument. I can't imagine that the S30 is that bad at all, but, man, I already find playing in time and with feel difficult enough on any keyboard. I don't need any more, even very very subtle "dislocation." (Interesting aside: the POD, wonder box that it is, can sometimes make you feel dislocated from the guitar).

Yet the route you describe is in many ways the perfect balance, so I need to spend some time with the S30 and form an honest opinion of its feel. I really want to find it acceptable, but only a good stint with it will tell.

 

In any case, y'all, I truly appreciate the responses and guidance. Forming an opinion, reading reviews and trying to evaluate how much the writer's needs and sensibilities match your own, trying out sounds in the less than ideal music store environment, listening to as many online demos as you can get your hands on, this is a tough but enjoyable process in many ways. Speaking of the online demos, man can they be misleading. Here's a Motif example: one of the single instrument demos of the Motif is its lovely upright bass sound (a sound I use a lot of in practice). It's a masterfully sequenced little piece that shows off the special articulations and wood and slap and buzz sounds that the Motif offers. What I learned in the store is that that demo uses *all* of its articulations and special effects. It's a bit gimmicky. It can produce exactly one realistic performance, you know? There's not a wealth of articulations to fit your needs, just a couple thrown in for a showcase. The gigasampler libraries, by contrast, often contain attempts at comprehensive articulations and effects for the serious composer, which can get pretty confusing also.

 

John, the long-winded and verbose

[joegerardi]

magpel wrote:

They had a flavor of the K2500 used in the store where I was trying the Motif. It looked like an 88 key jobby,

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Your requirements were for a synth-style keybed, not a piano style, and in my mind I immediately thought of the 76-note Kurz, but didn't state that. Here's the link I was looking at:

http://www.zzounds.com/love.music?p=p.KRZK2500B&z=1143381325604

 

and a small pic:

http://www.zzounds.com/g/l/KRZK2500B.jpg

[b_3guy]

Originally posted by Magpel:

B-3, excellent story. The MS-2000 looks ridiculously cool to me. Unfortunately it doesn't meet my need for a controller, so it's not even in the picture, but I really like that story. I too have felt that schizm between "good sense" and the raging id that must have it. Sometimes the id knows what it's talking about.

 

I did realize that it wasn't the board that you were looking for, I just thought you would relate to the crazy story. Am I a sucker or what!!!

 

This message has been edited by b_3guy on 08-16-2001 at 12:40 PM

[Magpel]

B-3, I hope there's no misunderstanding here. I knew that you knew the MS-2000 wasn't on my list. I undertood you were just describing the experience of being lured almost sub-consciously to an instrument, to a major purchase. I'm just saying yeah, man, I can dig that. I kinda feel like both the Motif and the Z1 are talking to me, and they don't have kind words for each other. So your experience with the Korg is right on the money.

 

Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

 

John

 

 

Originally posted by b_3guy:

I did realize that it wasn't the board that you were looking for, I just thought you would relate to the crazy story. Am I a sucker or what!!!

 

This message has been edited by b_3guy on 08-16-2001 at 12:40 PM

[coyote]

Same kinda thing w/ me & the JP8000 - I was halfheartedly looking for a controller for my Nanopiano. I stumbled across the JP by accident. Its concept is nowhere close to what I was actually looking for, but EVERYTHING about it screamed "Buy Me!" Didn't buy it that day; I went home & told my wife I'd successfully resisted temptation.

 

The next day I found myself by the music stores again http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I did my comparisons to all other synths in it's type & price range, and a day after that I bought it wit every intention of returning it within a few days! That was back in the winter, and I am still the proud owner of that JP8000 http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif BTW - I didn't *need* it at all, but now I'd be lost without it! And I recently seem to have made a leap in understanding it; I'm now getting to where I can imagine a sound in my head, and then come close to creating it on the JP.

 

Originally posted by b_3guy:

I agree with Joe if if doesn't say buy me, don't buy it. I think part of the problem is you have a good rig to start with & these 2 synths duplicate some of what you already have. Maybe you want to think in terms of an analog modeling synth with a full compliment of knobs for your sound creations. I'll tell you my Korg MS-2000 story. I had a QS-8, Hammond XK-2, Roland Sh-3, B-3, & Wurlitzer. I read the review of the MS-2000 in Keyboard mag. Thought it looked cool, knobs everywhere, they gave it the Key Buy award. Happened to be in a local music store & there it was. So I went over & played it. About 35 minutes later I came back to my senses. Never had a board grabbed me like this. About a week later I was in & there it was. I played it for an hour & a half. Sales guy says take it home. I say it's the last thing I need besides I'd rather take it to a gig I say. He says take it to a gig. I say no, I might buy it. 3 weeks later I'm in & I play it for 30 mins. I take it home & try it at a gig a couple days later. I sold my Roland Sh-3 & bought it the next week.