el biciclista Posted August 9, 2001 Share Posted August 9, 2001 I have a home studio and record my own music. I am basically an electric blues guitar player with barely passable keyboard licks (for rhythm only). Think BB King, Albert King, Jerry Garcia Band, etc. My equipment is: Digi001/ProTools LE w/Waves plug-ins G4 450 Yamaha 01v Roland 2080 w/exp cards: drums & bass, keyboards of 60s/70s, Axon AX100 guitar MIDI controller Roland A-33 keyboard controller Boss DR-660 drum machine Genelec 1030A monitors. I use MIDI for drums, bass, and keyboards and I mic guitar and vocals. I am just not getting what I want from the 2080. The drums and bass just don't seem tight; too reverby and "mushy" (sorry..I don't know how to describe it any better). Some of the sounds are big, but they aren't crisp and solid, so the rhythm doesn't drive like it should. I like a lot of the sounds separately, but they don't seem to drive in the mix......if that makes sense. Am I just screwed up, or is there something I can do to improve the sound quality? Do I need to: 1. Get a better drum machine for the drum tracks? I haven't tried the A-33 for drum tracks yet; I just find it easier to use a drum machine than a keyboard. A musician friend told me the DR-660 is "noisy and has limited dynamics" and he would never use it for pro recordings. 2. Customize the patches? I have REALLY tried to avoid diving into this pit, since I wouldn't know where to start in modifying the patches toward the sounds I want. I had hoped that by buying the expansion boards I would be swimming in sounds I like, but something is still not right. 3. Give up and get a sampler? I must be doing something wrong because the 2080 is used by so many musicians. What is wrong here? Am I expecting more than I will get from the 2080? Thanks for any help and guidance!! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Fortner Posted August 9, 2001 Share Posted August 9, 2001 I may get a lot of flames for this, and am probably not addressing your question properly, but I've never cared for the JV sounds at all. Mushy is a very good term... everything that comes out of it sounds like it's been squashed through a cheap solid-state compressor. You could turn off the effects on the drum sounds, and record them dry into PTLE, then adding effects to taste using your plug-ins. A little Waves RenComp across a stereo drum submix is a trick that sometimes puts the drums in a nice space. Personally, I'd avoid the 2080 for drums, and get your hands on an Akai MPC-2000. Stephen Fortner Principal, Fortner Media Former Editor in Chief, Keyboard Magazine Digital Piano Consultant, Piano Buyer Magazine Industry affiliations: Antares, Arturia, Giles Communications, MS Media, Polyverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted August 9, 2001 Share Posted August 9, 2001 I play an xp50 and an xp30. I agree that without due care a Roland (JV/XP)can sometimes sound cheap. Usually this is because of the excessive use of the (8 year old) efx in factory patches. The other reasons can sometimes be a lack of sample size and the compression artifacts from Roland's compression algorithm. It varies by waveform. I don't believe that reasons 2 & 3 apply very much to the bass & drums card. It's a few samples with a lot of space, carefully sampled. So the core sample set is very good, I believe. I don't have the card, but it is pretty highly regarded in the XP/JV community. A number of the patches are likely over processed with reverb and chorus. You could try doing the extarnal effects route as Steve said. If that doesn't work..... My point of view is to go to a sampler next. I don't believe the drum modules will give you better sounds than that card. If you were using the stock patches on an unexpanded JV, my advice would be different. However taste differs....... Hope this helps, Jerry ------------------ www.tuskerfort.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el biciclista Posted August 9, 2001 Author Share Posted August 9, 2001 Thanks for the advice. I'll try turning off the 2080 effects and recording dry. In thinking about the Akai MPC-2000 as a possible addition: 1. I would have the flexibility to either (1) record in MIDI and then use the 2080 exp card, or (2) record the Akai audio out using the Akai's internal samples? 2. The Akai output (whether MIDI or audio) is clearly higher quality than the DR-660? I am just not familiar with this type of equipment. Thanks! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicWorkz Posted August 9, 2001 Share Posted August 9, 2001 El, No need to scrap your set-up, just be creative when you can. I find that the Roland sounds are good, but require a bit of tweaking. Cutting off the effects (reverb and chorus) is a a start, but you might also try compressing the sounds to give them a little umph. Since you have individual outputs on the 2080, try sending the bass drum to one individual out, the snare to another one, and then use a stereo spread for the hi hat, cymbal and toms. If possible, compress the bass and snare individually and you should hear a better sound coming out of the 2080... Yamaha (Motif XS7, Motif 6, TX81Z), Korg (R3, Triton-R), Roland (XP-30, D-50, Juno 6, P-330). Novation A Station, Arturia Analog Experience Factory 32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el biciclista Posted August 9, 2001 Author Share Posted August 9, 2001 MusicWorkz, Thanks for the advice! What you suggest is fairly easy to do. I can compress in the audio path before A/D (or I can try it in Waves). The thing I fear most is having to try to modify the patches. Maybe this is no big deal once you do it, but I have a mental block. I'd much rather be making music! Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicWorkz Posted August 9, 2001 Share Posted August 9, 2001 Originally posted by el biciclista: The thing I fear most is having to try to modify the patches. Maybe this is no big deal once you do it, but I have a mental block. I'd much rather be making music! I feel you on that. Since you use a computer, you might want to invest in an editor/librarian(there are several good ones and you might even be able to find some shareware). The editor might make digging under the hood to do some basic mods a little less daunting. Good luck... Yamaha (Motif XS7, Motif 6, TX81Z), Korg (R3, Triton-R), Roland (XP-30, D-50, Juno 6, P-330). Novation A Station, Arturia Analog Experience Factory 32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicWorkz Posted August 9, 2001 Share Posted August 9, 2001 Originally posted by el biciclista: The thing I fear most is having to try to modify the patches. Maybe this is no big deal once you do it, but I have a mental block. I'd much rather be making music! I feel you on that. Since you use a computer, you might want to invest in an editor/librarian(there are several good ones and you might even be able to find some shareware). The editor might make digging under the hood to do some basic mods a little less daunting. Good luck... Yamaha (Motif XS7, Motif 6, TX81Z), Korg (R3, Triton-R), Roland (XP-30, D-50, Juno 6, P-330). Novation A Station, Arturia Analog Experience Factory 32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el biciclista Posted August 9, 2001 Author Share Posted August 9, 2001 MW, Thanks. I haven't found an editor for the 2080 that works on the Mac; the ones I saw were all PC-based programs. I'll take another look; I must admit that my search was somewhat half-hearted. Thanks again, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted August 10, 2001 Share Posted August 10, 2001 I also bought the bass and drums card for my XP80 quite a few years ago, and while it is fast and nice for a quick demo, I soon discovered that its drum sounds don't have the "beef" to sustain a powerful arrangement. To me, the only workaround is to strip down the effects, route the various drums to separate outs, and giving each one its own EQ. Compression can help too, but be careful; there seem to be a fair dose of it on the samples already, and adding more could make the sound even thinner instead than bigger. Actually, I gave up in the end, and now for "realistic" drums I mainly use samplers ans CD-Roms... marino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_3guy Posted August 10, 2001 Share Posted August 10, 2001 Originally posted by el biciclista: MW, Thanks. I haven't found an editor for the 2080 that works on the Mac; the ones I saw were all PC-based programs. I'll take another look; I must admit that my search was somewhat half-hearted. Thanks again, Mike Emagic's Sound Diver 3.0 for the Mac. Works for just about every synth. Steve www.seagullphotodesign.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el biciclista Posted August 10, 2001 Author Share Posted August 10, 2001 marino, Thanks. Not very encouraging that I will get what I want. Are you referring to something like the Kurzweil K2500R with a CD-ROM, in place of the 2080? Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el biciclista Posted August 10, 2001 Author Share Posted August 10, 2001 b_3guy, Thanks for tip on Sound Diver 3.0. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted August 10, 2001 Share Posted August 10, 2001 Originally posted by el biciclista: marino, Thanks. Not very encouraging that I will get what I want. Are you referring to something like the Kurzweil K2500R with a CD-ROM, in place of the 2080? Thanks, Mike Exactly. A sample CD like Burning Grooves, Sonic Implant Drums, or KeySolutions, or even the internal drums of the Kurz, are much more satisfying (for my music at least). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebus Posted August 12, 2001 Share Posted August 12, 2001 I agree that the JV uses way too much reverb, chorus and fx, (even for 80ties type music ;-)) which makes the sound "mushy" (you have no idea how this sounds/what this means in german http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif As a solution I switch the JV's efx completely off. To do this - I use the JV1010 - I have to send a small sysex string in my sequencer to the JV, but I'm sure the JV2080 offers to switch off global fx from the front panel. Some patches will sound somewhat lifeless at first, of course you can compensate this by adding outboard fx or plugins to taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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