KidCharlemagne Posted January 31, 2001 Share Posted January 31, 2001 after some years of neglect, i am refocusing on learning to play WELL. have decent (though not as good as i think) chops from strong classical training (conservatory grad in piano performance, specialist in chopin/beethoven/brahms and the like), but weak experience in the pop/rock genre that i am pursuing. have joined a "classic" rock band and just bought the amazing S80. Don't have MP3 or computer connection to keyboard(or money to buy). Do have 2 hours a day to practice. Want and need better ear and rock vocabulary. Three part query: (1) What are some good solos and songs to learn from ear, both so i have them and so i have an ear that's useful (i'll be hooking up my stereo to the S80), (2) what are recommended practice techniques for becoming the reliable keyboard sideman i want to become (for gigging out in rock/pop/blues genres), and (3) are there any good texts containing solos, and comping for other soloists i can make good use of? thanks much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbrock1san.rr.com Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 Good choice on the S80. The electric piano sounds on that are perfect for classic rock. I learned a lot about rock/pop from the Elton John and Steely Dan books. Music that was written by a keyboardist will give you an understanding of chord progressions and voicings. Learning the vocal line first can help you discover proper voice leading and what chord inversions will work for a particular song. Knowing what chord inversions the rhythm guitar is playing can help you work a keyboard part into the song, assuming it's a guitar-based song. One tip; a lot of rock music leaves out the third of a chord. Always think of ways to simplify the chord you are playing. Rock/pop music is also about attitude and playing on the edge a little bit. I don't think holding down simple pad sounds is what Chuck Berry had in mind when he changed music forever. Dare to be extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 I would recommend an excellent book, "Improvising Rock Piano", by Jeffrey Gutcheon (Amsco Publications). It covers a broad range of styles, with discussion and specific pieces. I hope you can still find it. marino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergievsky Posted February 1, 2001 Share Posted February 1, 2001 What about cdroms and videos and such, any of them helpful? I also need to improve, and quickly I might add... Raul Raul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Z. Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by Sergievsky: What about cdroms and videos and such, any of them helpful? I also need to improve, and quickly I might add... Raul Raul - I'd just take out CDs by some of the best rock players that have been mentioned at length in some of the other threads on this board and listen extensively. I try to stay out of the way of the bass player, but lock into the rhythm section as much as possible during the ensemble parts. For solos, think melody. I think that voicings are what particularly distinguish one rock player from another. I agree with Steve - listen to Hornsby, Elton, Stevie Wonder and Winwood, Billy....not to mention Toto, Boston, etc., and you'll hear a great deal of inspiration. After years of learning to cop parts from pop and rock recordings, I'll tell you that you can develop your ear AND your creativity by doing just that. www.lauriez.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by Sergievsky: What about cdroms and videos and such, any of them helpful? I also need to improve, and quickly I might add... Raul Try the Homespun Tape folks - they make some pretty great instructional materials, including video tapes by Dr. John, Donald Fagen and a bunch of other folks. https://www.homespuntapes.com/list.cfm dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergievsky Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 What about KIT-the school, part of MI? They have a 10 week course available that sounds useful, though quite a bit more expensive than videos (the homespun site is dead BTW) It'll be quite a sacrifice for me, being away from family and work, but if a 10 week intense course with lotsa intense practice and guidance it might be beneficial. Anyone have any experiences with MI? (no comments from their sales division please http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif ) Raul Raul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Originally posted by Sergievsky: the homespun site is dead BTW) No it isn't...my URL was flawed - sorry. Try the home page: http://www.homespuntapes.com That will work. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman1ovation.net Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Hey, KidCharlemagne. I have what may seem like a really nutty suggestion; but here goes. I think this should be helpful considering your background, because, if anything, your challenge is to find the "less is more" vibe, since classical pianists often carry the whole thing. Although there are very rhythmic elements in classical, there are so many tempo changes and rubato vibes taking place that the strict rhythm orientation of rock can become its own challenge. I started gigging in the late sixties as a drummer. Drums were my first instrument. As a result, one thing a use to drill with, as a drummer, were the so-called thirteen rudiments. They may not all be applicable, but you can utilize single stroke rolls, double stroke rolls, paradiddles, double paradiddles, all that sort of thing; within the keyboard paradigm. Shortly after I began gigging as a drummer, I started writing songs, and found myself gravitating to the piano as a writing partner. Within two years, I switched from drums to keys. For more peculiarity, the way I taught myself keys was initially by using a GUITAR chord book. So, I learned the chords and different inversions (this chord book diagrammed keys on a keyboard as well as the guitar's fret board). So, as a practice tool, I would think of my left and right hands as a drummers' sticks. After all, the piano is a percussion instrument. So, when I would play different chords.. maybe two notes (at most three) each hand... I'd play paradiddles (L R L L R L R R). Then I'd do double paradiddles (L R L R L L R L R L R R), and various other drum oriented patterns. When playing those kinds of patterns, you want to stay in very strict rhythm. Then, by adding variations, all sorts of things become possible, and it tends to keep one from over-playing. Over the years, when listening to pop/rock keyboard players, I've been amazed at how many times I've heard paradiddles in great keyboard parts of famous players. I don't know if they know they are doing it (playing paradiddles), but it works great! Sometimes you might skip a beat (just don't play it - silence) or leave out one hand altogether, which can really train one to feel the syncopation of funk. For a classical player, a challenge presents itself to "unlearn" and then relearn. That sounds a little scary, but don't sweat it. After all Wynton Marsalis was able to first be a great classical player, then start (rather shakily at first) being a great jazz player (that involved a great bit of the ol' unlearn/relearn), and then, in the end, being someone who could have it both ways. I am pitiful in the classical realm, my friend, so my hat's off to the kind of chops that takes. But I do have a sense of what is involved going from classical to pop or rock keyboards. Like all music genres, rock involves its own challenge, and ultimately, virtuosity. Initially, even though your chops would seem to call for more, I think your best bet is under-playing. Then, as you get more and more into the possibilities you uncover every time you delve into those two hours of daily practice, you'll work in more and more cool stuff. Stuff that will come from your own invention. It will be hard to hold back, but I suspect that it will make it easier to find that open door to rock keys heaven. Once in a while, play with one hand "tied behind your back". First one, then the other. Not for leads, but for 'comping. All of these methods can yield results much faster than you might think. One more thing, I'd check out the keyboards in old Beatles songs. Very simple, but musical. Some are so simple it might even be a little embarrassing playing them. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif But they fit and they are tasteful and the are the right essence for that music. Later, they brought in Billy Preston, towards the end of their era, and he combined a certain rock virtuosity along with a sensibility to keep to the Beatles' tasteful simplicity. His work on Get Back is right on, nasty, in the pocket... a total groove. And FUN!! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Cool Posted February 18, 2001 Share Posted February 18, 2001 Originally posted by Dave Bryce: Try the Homespun Tape folks - they make some pretty great instructional materials, including video tapes by Dr. John, Donald Fagen and a bunch of other folks. https://www.homespuntapes.com/list.cfm dB Well Raul there really isn't nay quick way to learn/master play rock just practice and learn chords if you just play chords and learn different variations you'll sound fine....just figure out the key it is in and play chords a website i recomend for chords is http://www.vaughnnark.com/ChordTutor.html how this helped ya out Joe Cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum Posted February 18, 2001 Share Posted February 18, 2001 Joe Cool, That chord / scale website is pretty cool, but I wouldn't take it as gospel. I found a few errors while looking through the key of C: 1) C Aeolian should be identical to Eb Major (with the exception of the start and end points) 2) C Ninth chords are missing the 9th note. They appear the same as seventh chords on the website 3) The major pentatonic may be incorrect (I always thought it was 1,2,3,5,6) Maybe I'm the one who is wrong. If anyone can clarify, I would appreciate it. One more: The 13th chords on the website do not include the 11th -- only the 7th, 9th, and 13th. Wouldn't the 11th be included as well? All the best, Wiggum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidCharlemagne Posted February 20, 2001 Author Share Posted February 20, 2001 Many thanks to all who have contributed here. I am aware of the hazard of overplaying, but find myself doing it anyway. especially if i am principal rhythm player, i tend to try to lay a groove a la guitar up/down strumming, usually using much too much of the l r l r l etc. and not sustaining anything. plenty to work on there. definitely going to try out the drum paradiddle patterns suggested by musicman@ovation. tried them with the dan tune kidcharlemagne on the C#9 intro to pretty good effect. any other tunes you might suggest for models? Also going to look further into the homespun tapes, although some reviewers on the site have expressed disappointment with the Dr. John tapes. Any one have personal experience using them? lastly the gutcheon book appears to be out of print. anyone have a copy they'd be willing to part with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 Originally posted by KidCharlemagne: Any one have personal experience using them? I have one of them - very useful tape. I mean, c'mon - you get to watch Dr. John's hands closeup from overhead - how bad can that be? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif The tape isn't the most structured instructional video that I've ever seen, but who cares? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Professional Affiliations: Royer Labs • Music Player Network Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidCharlemagne Posted February 20, 2001 Author Share Posted February 20, 2001 Thanks much,dave. I suspected that that was the case. there was another major dude whose stuff is sold on the site whose name i forget, but when i get a chance to revisit i'll have to ask about him as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidCharlemagne Posted February 21, 2001 Author Share Posted February 21, 2001 Wiggum, I checked the chord site, and you are right about the ninth chords lacking the ninth (!) and the Aeolian not being right in all cases (though it seemed to be right in some). I also found the so-called minor scales to be the melodic and not the natural minor scales in all cases I checked. also, maybe I don't understand how the pentatonic scale is orgnanized, but I couldn't make heads or tails of it (we operate with the same notions. eg., instead of 12356, his major pentatonic scale starting on A is A,B,D,E,F#)? I did not check everything, but together we have certainly found enough errors to make the site suspect. perhaps the site is European and suffers from their system's idiosyncrisies? btw, i believe that the 11th is theoretically presumed in a 13th chord, but because the voice is so unique, in practical terms it is typically noted if it is supposed to be there. also, as you probably know, the natural 11th is never used in a major chord, unless the third is omitted-- in which case it's a sus. and never raised in the minor, since that is typically called a flat 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay da cop Posted February 21, 2001 Share Posted February 21, 2001 There is a guy named David Meece that is a Peabody piano performance grad, phenominal player (seen him in concert 4 times in last 18 years), and incorporates classical into rock scheme. Give him a listen (contemporary christian music). He has some big-production studio stuff, and performs in concert solo, just him and his Yamaha grand. Captivating. No backing tracks, or, unfortunately, band, but still captivating. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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