Bubbajazz Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 Help - to any Kurzweilers out there. I recently bought a K2500XS, and find that I need to invest in the upgrades - P-RAM, RAM, possibly KDFX, ROMs and hard drive. Sounds expensive, no? I'd like to put as much as possible in the instrument, and need to DIY as much as possible. I am interested in 2 things - first any sources for tech info on how-to - second, anyone's own experiences, both positive and negative, in attempting this myself. BTW, kudos to the editors/writers and contributors. I am a newbie, and have found these forums to be terrific sources of info. ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 Hi, Brian... Well, I don't know your level of proficiency when it comes to opening up a piece of hi-tech equipment, but I think that you may want to pay a professional to do these upgrades for you. You've spent a bunch on your Kurz - isn't it worth the investment to make sure that someone who really knows their way around it is the one who's poking around under the hood? Some of the upgrades that you mentioned are definitely not for the faint of heart; plus, unless I am entirely mistaken, you will void any warranties on the Kurz and any of the components if you attempt to install them yourself. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbajazz Posted December 30, 2000 Author Share Posted December 30, 2000 Thanks for responding, David. I agree about being a bit faint of heart, especially as it involves a soldering iron, but... I have to think that installing RAM, or perhaps a hard drive, is no big deal, if you know where to start. I expect that P-RAM is not something to undertake myself. I also would be willing to pay for this to be done, but so far have found that techs and music stores are charging exorbitantly for relatively minor work. Open the box, plug in the part, make sure it seats correctly, close the box and charge $100. As an alternative, if anyone knows of competent, reasonable techs in the NY/CT area, I would be interested in hearing about them. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 << I have to think that installing RAM, or perhaps a hard drive, is no big deal, if you know where to start. I expect that P-RAM is not something to undertake myself.>> Well, since I put my RAM and HD into my Kurz by myself, far be it from me to disagree with you . http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif If I remember correctly, the PRAM does require cuts and jumps, though...don't know about the KDFX... <> Where'd you buy the stuff? Don't they have a recommendation or two? Okay, lemme think...there's a tech company in the NYC area called...hmmmmm - c'mon, brain... DBM Sound, if memory serves. Have you tried them? There's a guy there named John Frondelli (sp?) who is a great guy and a great tech too, from what I hear. I don't know what their deal is as far as Kurzweil stuff goes... If you talk to him, tell him I said to get a clue... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted December 30, 2000 Share Posted December 30, 2000 I think that KDFX installation is especially critical; lots of people advised against doing it by yourself. BTW you can try the forums at Sonik: www.sonikmatter.com Go to the "forums" from the main page, register and ask questions; they are very helpful and knowledgeable. Hope this helps marino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbajazz Posted December 31, 2000 Author Share Posted December 31, 2000 Thanks, folks. I've gotten off to a good start. I appreciate the help and advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthfoolsynthfool.com Posted January 1, 2001 Share Posted January 1, 2001 Just a note regarding Kurzweil gear internally. Kurzweils can be very delicate inside and have sharp metal edges on much of their structural steel. They're not my favorite unit to work on and remind me of a PC with poor build quality inside. Walk softly and check your work twice. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif Good luck. Kevin Lightner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbajazz Posted January 1, 2001 Author Share Posted January 1, 2001 Thanks. It would indeed be a shame to trash a considerable investment. Moving off the upgrades for a moment, I have to admit it annoys me that memory doesn't come fully loaded at original purchase, and that more provision wasn't made for P-RAM. I mean, these chips are cheap, and the K is http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif ...not. Why not make the original machine fully functional at that MSRP? I must admit, I have an ax to grind here. This machine was sold to me in part on its expandability. To me, this whole memory thing feels like I bought a Ferrari, but now have to buy and install a gas tank. Sure looks good in the driveway, and I can't wait to get it onto the road. I just don't see basic functionality as expandability. I'm a relatively light user, and I'm bumping up against the memory capacity issue almost daily. 1.25 Meg of P-RAM is merely going to postpone my problems. It seems I spend half my sequencing time thinning out my controller pressure data. I won't bother with sampling til I get this RAM outfitted. I remember the joy of managing memory from my Emax. While I'm at it - $80-100 for a mounting kit for a hard drive? I thought I was buying a keyboard, not a serial novel. Don't get me wrong. I love the sound, but at this price, we really shouldn't be nickel-and-dimed too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted January 1, 2001 Share Posted January 1, 2001 Originally posted by Brian Leary: Moving off the upgrades for a moment, I have to admit it annoys me that memory doesn't come fully loaded at original purchase, and that more provision wasn't made for P-RAM. I mean, these chips are cheap, and the K is http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif ...not. Why not make the original machine fully functional at that MSRP? Kurzweil's thinking is that there are people who will not necessarily want all or any of the options, so they should only have to pay for the ones that they want. Believe it or not, there are people who just want the stripped down synth. Plus, you get the advantage of being able to choose your own size hard drive, and how much sample memory that you need. Remember, when the K2000 first came out in 1993, you could load it up to 64 meg - that was a lot back then, and not everyone needed it or wanted to pay for that much memory... Additionally, the modular design is one of the reasons that the platform has survived for as long as it has. If they had needed to wait until the sound blocks, PRAM, sampling option etc. were finished, the K2000 wouldn't have been out until two or three years after it was originally released. Also, by not including them, they are actually saving you more money - when manufacturers buy parts from other manufactureres (SIMMs, hard drives, etc.), they mark them up before they resell them to cover their expenses - foreseen and unforeseen expenses...so they mark them up a bunch. Consequently, were they to sell them fully loaded, the price would go up more than you think. It's just one way of doing business - it's been the Kurzweil way ever since the K250. They actually tried packaging K250s in several different configurations - boy, did that not work... dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 That's exactly right. What is not right, IMO, is the price of those expansions made directly by Kurzweil. (ROM blocks, KDFX, daughterboard, sampling option) They are really overpriced. I sunk so much money expanding the K2000, that now I really resent the idea of starting over again with the 2500 or 2600, and I can't afford it. (I live in Europe, where Kurzweil stuff is unbelievably expensive) I'd like to restate that once again: I *didn't* buy a K2500 or K2600, which I consider killer synths, mainly because the expansions are overpriced. Hope Kurzweil is listening! marino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbajazz Posted January 2, 2001 Author Share Posted January 2, 2001 <> (Hope I am doing this citation of David's post correctly) David - I agree on the modular expandability. And I know TANSTAAFL. But... The cost of a P-RAM upgrade, which is important for most users, is quite high. The incremental cost to Kurzweil of installing adequate P_RAM at original manufacture is really quite low. The same logic applies to the mounting kit for the hard drive. Re: SIMMs - I'm buying retail, Kurzweil is buying wholesale. I am happy to pay Kurzweil the same markup that I will a chip vendor. Someone will make a profit off of me (as they should) - I wouldn't mind giving the money to Kurzweil. It's a funny business for Kurzweil. They have a superior technology (VAST) that is well regarded by the music community. High initial price would be easier to swallow if expansion were more reasonable. And I have to think that this compound cost is the biggest deterrent to their owning a commanding share of the market. I dig expandability. I don't dig paying for basic functionality, or ripoff markups for nuts and bolts hardware. The funny thing is, by pricing the hard drive kit where they do, I'll probably go external anyway. And Kurzweil will miss an opportunity to make a fair (though not exorbitant) profit from an existing customer. They also lose the opportunity to upsell people like marino, a satisfied willing customer, who will probably spend his next x thousand$ somewhere else. Just seems like a waste, when a little more thought in initial design (and improved manufacturing quality) could have made the K2(5,6)00 a much bigger seller and more profitable for Young Chang...IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bryce Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 I hear you loud and clear, boys. I bought a Fostex recorder many moons ago. I needed to rack mount the thing, but then I found out that the the rack ears cost $50, and I almost spat blood. $50 for two bent pieces of iron? What was up with that? What was up was good old fashioned capitalism - that was the best and easiest option for me at that time. I didn't like it, but I did it. The alternatives involved either custom iron work, or redoing the way that my studio was laid out, so I just shelled out the cash. Kurzweil is in business - that's one of the drags about art meeting capitalism. They want to make a profit, and their sales histories have shown them that one of the ways in which they can do this is with their expansion kits. Lots of people buy them, and quite honestly, they have no choice if they want to fully explore everything that their V.A.S.T. synths can do. You did, Brian, you too, Marino - so did I. Since it's their machine, they can charge whatever they want until or unless someone else does it cheaper. The great beauty of the system is that we, the consumers, have a method of expressing our approval or disapproval - we can choose to patronize them or not to patronize them. If no one would buy the expansions, then that would tell Kurzweil that they're doing something wrong. But people DO buy them. As far as the quantity thing goes, it has been pounded into my head over and over again that unit sales are not commutative. That is to say that 60 units sold at $40 and 80 units sold at $30 do not equal the same, even though it looks like they do. I am told that there are break points that have to be taken into account when it comes to quantity, manufacturing time, shipping costs, packaging costs, etc. that change the profit margins - formulas which a bunch of people have tried to explain to me, but it always makes my brain hurt...I'm just a musician, not a bean counter. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Which brings me to a very important point: Just because I've heard enough of this side of the argument to share it with you doesn't in ANY way mean that I am endorsing this philosophy - I've just had some first hand experience with this stuff (frequently because I've asked the same questions that you have) and I'm letting you know what I've learned. If it were up to me, I'm basically with you guys...I'd want as many people as possible to have my product... ...especially the P-RAM - I mean, c'mon - who WOULDN'T want that? That one should definitely just be in there. dB ==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc_dup2 Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 They are really overpriced. I sunk so much money expanding the K2000, that now I really resent the idea of starting over again with the 2500 or 2600, and I can't afford it. (I live in Europe, where Kurzweil stuff is unbelievably expensive) Buy your Kurz in Germany. Here they are half the price than in the US. There's a thread at http://forums.sonikmatter.com/ full of complaint about the prices in the US. ------------------ Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 Originally posted by Brian Leary: I recently bought a K2500XS, and find that I need to invest in the upgrades - P-RAM, RAM, possibly KDFX, ROMs and hard drive. Sounds expensive, no? I'd like to put as much as possible in the instrument, and need to DIY as much as possible. I am interested in 2 things - first any sources for tech info on how-to - second, anyone's own experiences, both positive and negative, in attempting this myself. Brian, I concur with what the others are saying. Spend the money and have a tech upgrade the machine. The K2000/K2500 are notoriously difficult to work on under the hood. I've heard that the PRAM upgrade is very tricky; the techs often cut their hands on sharp edges of the metal casing. I bought my Kurzweils at www.sweetwater.com and can tell you that they have a very experienced service staff. A lot of the big names in the industry go to these guys for service. Of course, that means you'll have to ship the unit - unless you live within a day's drive of Indiana - but if you have all of the options installed at once, you'll minimize the expense. Think about whether you need all of the options. Are you going to use the onboard sequencer extensively? If not, you may not need the PRAM. Are the additional ROM blocks necessary, or could you get the same sounds (or better) from a sample CD? KDFX sounds good, but it's got a complicated interface. If you have good outboard processors, you may be better off sending dry signals to the outputs and processing them outside of the keyboard. Finally, it's too bad that you didn't get a K2600, because it has (a) KDFX built in and (b) user installable options. But you probably got a great deal on the K2500. Use some of the money you saved and have the pros install your options. You won't regret the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbajazz Posted January 3, 2001 Author Share Posted January 3, 2001 Dan: Funny you should mention the 2600. When I bought the 2500, I went to Sam Ash. I have had good luck over the years, with one salesman in particular (who, of course, is now gone.) I spotted the 2600, and asked the salesman to explain it to me, vis a vis the 2500. Other than the KDFX, he mentioned nothing - went off in search of the manual, and finally came back 15 minutes later with nothing. When he couldn't give me any other key points of difference, I went for the 2500. If he had known about user expandability and told me, I was prepared to upgrade to the 2600. BTW, I also bought the 2500 elsewhere. I miss working with salesmen (and women) who know their business. I know - another "good old days" post, but it's true. It bugs me that I seem to know much more than my expert adviser. This, more than anything else, has pushed me toward being a price shopper. I have always given a home field advantage to the salesperson who takes the time to demo a product fully and help me assess my own needs. If they give the demo and info, and a fair (not necessarily lowest) price, I almost always give them the business. But there are few salespeople who can handle the rudimentary demos, much less help me with information. As I have been investigating Sweetwater, it seems like they run at a 15-20% premium to the rest of the market. It's hard for me to justify that premium, when I don't have the ability to get "hands on." And based on posts elsewhere on this site, they hardly seem immune to uneven service and advice. To David - it may be that "that's capitalism, too" but it's actually another variation on the same problem as Kurzweil's. Price vs. value (especially value-added) (boy, this sure has moven pretty far afield from my original question - still, thanks to all for your contributions. It's an interesting dialog.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansouth Posted January 3, 2001 Share Posted January 3, 2001 Originally posted by Brian Leary: I miss working with salesmen (and women) who know their business. I know - another "good old days" post, but it's true. It bugs me that I seem to know much more than my expert adviser. This, more than anything else, has pushed me toward being a price shopper. As I have been investigating Sweetwater, it seems like they run at a 15-20% premium to the rest of the market. It's hard for me to justify that premium, when I don't have the ability to get "hands on." And based on posts elsewhere on this site, they hardly seem immune to uneven service and advice. I've found Sweetwater's prices to be competitive, but keep in mind that they may not publish their absolute best deal on the web site. That would give their competitors ammo and would rob them of negotiating room. On the other hand, I'm not the type to squeeze a retailer out of his last five bucks of profit. A transaction has to be mutually beneficial, because good business begets repeat business. That said, they usually give me a better deal than other well-known retailers, and dealing with them is truly hassle free. I can't say that about anyone else. Sweetwater has offered great service over the years. They're very knowledgeable, and they have given me good advice on most occasions. It you had dealt with them, this K2600 issue would have been a non-issue, because they know Kurzweils better than anyone. By contrast, I've had experiences at Sam Ash that range from brilliant to reprehensible. To this day I'll thank the guy that talked me into a Mackie 1604 when I went in looking to buy one of those infamous Alesis "wedge" mixers. But on another occasion, some guy charged me a fortune for a Joe Meek compressor, and I fell for it, because I didn't know what the list price was. I'm not trying to single out Sam; I've had disastrous experiences with some of the mail order houses. Sweetwater gets two thumbs up, because on the rare occasions when an issue arose, they bent over backward to straighten things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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