The bed thread

[Dave Bryce]

So, here's a topic that I love to bat about:

 

Which synths/keyboards do you think have the best feeling keybeds? Feel free to list a few, if you feel so inclined.

 

Also, I think we're gonna have to open the floor up to...shall we say, adverse opinions as well? Y'know, any keybed that you think just sucks big cheese, let's hear about that as well.

 

dB

[Guest]

Hang on...let me walk across the room to make sure it's still as bad as I remembered...

 

...oh yeah...it's way bad.

 

My Roland Alpha Juno-1 (don't ask why I still have it...it's just another set of black-and-white keys taking up room in my studio) manages to be spongy, sticky and springy at the same time. Or maybe it's just that I spilled a Coke on in it about five years ago and haven't used it much since.

 

On a more positive note, I played a Yamaha S80 the other day which felt good...seemingly better than my QS8. Dave, do they make their own keybeds or is it yet another Fatar?

 

On yet another topic, I'll bet your K. Kawai feels pretty nice as well, huh?

 

- Jeff, TASCAM Guy

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by jklopmeyer@tascam.com:

On a more positive note, I played a Yamaha S80 the other day which felt good...seemingly better than my QS8. Dave, do they make their own keybeds or is it yet another Fatar?

- Jeff, TASCAM Guy

 

The S80's keybed is made by Yamaha. I believe they make all of their own keybeds. I think they're the only manufacturer who does - Roland makes some of their own, but I'm pretty sure that some of Roland's home pianos and maybe even some of their GM keyboards use FATAR keybeds - I believe these instruments are even made in Italy. Most (if not all) other MI manufacturers use FATAR action these days.

 

Someone feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

 

dB

[Erik Norlander]

Good topic, once again!

 

My all-time favorites:

 

Yamaha KX88

Waldorf Wave

Emulator IV Keyboard (which I believe used the same Fatar keybed as the Wave)

Hammond B3 / C3

 

The KX88 is a weighted 88-note keybed and is the best I've ever played aside from an actual piano (Boesendorfer Imperial Grand having my favorite acoustic piano action).

 

The Wave and EIV use the high end 76-note Fatar semi-weighted synth keybed that is state of the art, IMO. Nice. I believe there is a 61-note as well, and it appears on one of the German synths. Is it the Virus, perhaps?

 

The Yamaha DX7 and DX7II keybeds also get high marks from me. A little light, but very well engineered and highly playable, especially for solos.

 

The Hammond B3/C3 keybeds are just awesome. Shallow key travel is appropriate since there's no velocity sensivity, and the springiness allows to move really fast and also do the percussive key bounce effect. Also, nothing lends itself to laying your forearm across the keybed for a rock n roll organ roar like the Hammond. But all Hammond keybeds are not the same. My old Model D, for example, has a heavier, sharper edged keybed. Still fast, but dangerous on those Keith Emerson glisses.

 

While the keybed itself is certainly the MOST important part, the way it is mounted also seems to have a lot to do with the feel. For example, the Alesis QS8 and DG8 use the same keybed, but the QS8 is mounted on sheet metal whereas the DG8 is mounted on wood. Result? The DG8 feels MUCH better.

 

The (Roland) Rhodes MK-80 keybed is also mounted on wood, and it feels pretty good. A little mushy, but good.

 

The Hammond keybed is also mounted on wood. Duh. Hey, anybody played this *new* Korg CX3? They tout the keybed as something special. I'm CURIOUS!

 

Worst keybeds ever? The Pratt Reid (sp?) keybeds that appeared in the Minimoog, Prophet 5, OBX, OBXa and FVS, PPG, etc. Those things suck - ... well, let's just say they suck.

 

Cheers,

 

Erik

[Guest]

For weighted keyboards:

Roland A-80

PPG PRK (very rare but incredible: the action was made by Steinway!)

and thinking of it, my Yamaha G2 grand piano doesn't feel bad either!

 

synth keys:

DX7

Roland A70

Oberheim Matrix-12

 

The Horrible ones:

Yamaha SY77

Any old Roland, especially their first weighted board (don't remember the model number) was like playing on mud. Aaarghh!

And yes, the Pratt-Read were dreadful, but they didn't have to sense velocity or pressure.

[DBENNVAhotmail.com]

Peeps,

 

Weighted:Roland/A90EX. I don't have much of an opinion of unweighted boards. I started out playing classical piano so I do my solo's

on weighted boards as well. I only use unweighted if thats all the studio I'm working in has available. I also like staying with weighted keys because right now I'm a closet Jazz pianist doing R&B/Hip-Hop (1.)Because I like it. 2.)To establish myself. 3.)To pay the bills), & I don't want to get spoiled playing unweighted keys. Gotta keep some discipline somewhere.

 

Quantum! C/O

DBENNVA@hotmail.com

 

[This message has been edited by DBENNVA@hotmail.com (edited 10-21-2000).]

 

[This message has been edited by DBENNVA@hotmail.com (edited 10-21-2000).]

[D.Triny]

Weighted: Roland A90EX

 

Unweighted: Yamaha DX7II

 

no way/yuck:

Kurzweil

[Dave Bryce]

For me:

 

Weighted: I've always liked Yamaha's weighted action keybeds a lot. From the KX-88 and the PF-80 days, up to the P-200 and S80 - nice action. I'm even kinda partial to the feel of their acoustic pianos. I remember playing a DX-1 in the late '80s that felt unbelievable...also, for some strange reason, I seem to be partial to the FATAR TP20 in the QS8. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Honorable mention goes to the non-hammer weighted action that Kurzweil had in the K1000 in the '80s...Hammond Suzuki, if memory serves. Pretty robust little keybed - I dropped one of those on its face from four feet one night at CBGB's right before a showcase (of course!), and it not only didn't break, it played fine. We still didn't get signed, though...

 

Synth action - there is this one FATAR keybed that is in the Waldorf Wave (Erik mentioned it too) and in a few other synths that I just love - I don't know the model number - it's a semi-weighted action, but the underside of the keys are smmoth. If I remember correctly, it was also in the GeneralMusic S3. and maybe the E-Mu E-Synth as well. Really responsive keybed. I actually met a guy in Sweden who uses the Waldorf Wave as a controller only! Seriously! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

 

Besides that, I'll play on just about anything...no real intense dislikes come to mind. Well, apart from having to play an acoustic piano part on a fully non-weighted 5 octave keyboard, especially when I'm trying to record...yuck. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/frown.gif

 

dB

 

[This message has been edited by Dave Bryce (edited 10-21-2000).]

[Pim]

The Kawai K5000s is my favourite at this moment. Kawai akways made good keybeds. The K1 had an extremely one good for a low budget instrument.

Before I had the K5000s I used the Elka MK-55. Not bad at all.

For weighted keys, I prefer the Alesis QS 8.1.

Does anyone http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif know if this is the same keybed as used in the QS 8?

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by pim@dancewave.nl:

For weighted keys, I prefer the Alesis QS 8.1.

Does anyone http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif know if this is the same keybed as used in the QS 8?

 

I believe it is.

 

dB

[marino]

Well, Dave, I believe that the keyboard on the Yamaha S80 differs a bit from the one on the P-200. I actually like the S80 action better.

But your post reminded me of a closely related subject: the semi-weighted keyboard on the E-synth. I think the Roland A-70 has the same keys. It feels very good, but it started a strange trend: Making the black keys longer than usual. The K5000s is like that, and the new Virus. Even the most recent Oberheim 76-key master, it has a very different keyboard, but with this same strange particularity.

Personally I don't feel confortable playing these oversized black keys; the surface ratio with the white keys is very different on a piano keyboard, for example.Has anybody else noticed that?

(I hope my English is understandable!)

[synthfoolsynthfool.com]

A New or rebuilt Minimoog action is one of my favorites. It's a Pratt-Read, but has some added felt bushings that most PR keyboards don't have. Light and fast.

 

I don't mind most Kurzweils.

Yamaha KX88's are too heavy for me.

Roland RD1000's too sluggish and slow.

Yamaha CS80's and Chromas are cool in their own way.

 

K

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by marino:

Well, Dave, I believe that the keyboard on the Yamaha S80 differs a bit from the one on the P-200. I actually like the S80 action better.

 

I'm not absolutely certain, but I'm pretty sure that I remember Athan Billias of Yamaha telling me that it was the same keybed when they first showed it at Summer NAMM '99. You've got my curiosity up now - I'll drop him an email and check.

 

If it is, perhaps they did a similar thing to what Alesis did with the QS8.1/DG8 - it's the same keybed (FATAR TP20), but its mounted and set up differently.

 

dB

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

If it is, perhaps they did a similar thing to what Alesis did with the QS8.1/DG8 - it's the same keybed (FATAR TP20), but its mounted and set up differently.

 

dB

 

That is a great illustration of how the bed itself isn't the only factor in determining feel, like many players assume. The QS8 and DG8 feel very different to me, and both use the Fatar TP20. Interesting.

 

- Jeff, TASCAM Guy

[Erik Norlander]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Honorable mention goes to the non-hammer weighted action that Kurzweil had in the K1000 in the '80s...Hammond Suzuki, if memory serves.

 

My God, Dave, that K1000 keybed has to be the *worst* ever made ever. Ever. To quote Bill the Cat "Ack. Pffft."

 

But on the other hand, I have seen you play, and robustness definitely is a highly relevant factor for you. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Cheers,

 

Erik

 

[This message has been edited by eriknorlander@thetank.com (edited 10-23-2000).]

[Erik Norlander]

Originally posted by synthfool@synthfool.com:

A New or rebuilt Minimoog action is one of my favorites. It's a Pratt-Read, but has some added felt bushings that most PR keyboards don't have. Light and fast.

 

I acknowledge that the PR keybeds that you personally have restored play very well.

However, I think just about every "non-Kevin'ed" PR keybed I've played leaves me wishing I had stuck with the clarinet.

 

So when can I bring my 951 over?

 

Cheers,

 

Erik

[Erik Norlander]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

If it is, perhaps they did a similar thing to what Alesis did with the QS8.1/DG8 - it's the same keybed (FATAR TP20), but its mounted and set up differently.

 

The difference is that the QS8.1 is mounted on sheet metal (bad) whereas the DG8 is mounted on wood (good). But the QS8.1 still sounds better. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Since we're talking in the land of Alesis, you can even tell the difference between the QS7.1 (sheet metal) and the QuadraSynth (structural foam), both of which use the Fatar semi-weighted (synth) keybed. As ugly as the structural foam was, it provided a better foundation for the keybed than the sheet metal, IMO.

 

Okay, synth manufacturers, here's the request: Please don't mount your keybed straight to sheet metal. If you must have a sheet metal bottom panel, put a piece of wood (or something!) between the keybed and the panel. It makes a HUGE difference!

 

Cheers,

 

Erik

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

I'm not absolutely certain, but I'm pretty sure that I remember Athan Billias of Yamaha telling me that it was the same keybed when they first showed it at Summer NAMM '99. You've got my curiosity up now - I'll drop him an email and check.

 

 

Athan says (and I quote):

 

"The P200 and the S80 are actually a little different. The P200 and P80 are the Graded Hammer action which means that the bottom of the keyboard has a heavier action and becomes progressively lighter as it goes up. This is the way a real piano is because of the mass and length of the key mechanisms.

 

The S80 is the AE action which is used by not only Yamaha , but also Korg weighted action keyboards."

 

...and there you have it. My mistake.

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by eriknorlander@thetank.com:

My God, Dave, that K1000 keybed has to be the *worst* ever made ever. Ever. To quote Bill the Cat "Ack. Pffft."

 

But on the other hand, I have seen you play, and robustness definitely is a highly relevant factor for you. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

No doubt! http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

 

Especially when you factor in that I used it for bash-the-ivories rock 'n roll gigs - it was perfect.

 

dB

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by eriknorlander@thetank.com:

The difference is that the QS8.1 is mounted on sheet metal (bad) whereas the DG8 is mounted on wood (good). But the QS8.1 still sounds better. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

I respectfully disagree with that - I think that the DG8 sounds much better on a recording/in a mix. I recently did a very serious A/B of the 8.1 (True Stereo program) vs. the audio outs of the DG8 on a piece where the piano played a huge part. I found the DG8 to have a better image, and a more realistic piano program due mainlly to better dynamics (True Grand program - thank you Randy Lee) and better tuning (thank you, Mark McCrite) than anything in the 8.1. As a matter of fact, I went back and substituted it on another recording that had previously been using the 8.1 - this, too sounded better to me.

 

The funny thing is, during the beta test for this product, I never really had occasion to try recording the audio outs, because I was so into the sound system.

 

Since we're talking in the land of Alesis, you can even tell the difference between the QS7.1 (sheet metal) and the QuadraSynth (structural foam), both of which use the Fatar semi-weighted (synth) keybed. As ugly as the structural foam was, it provided a better foundation for the keybed than the sheet metal, IMO.

 

Okay, synth manufacturers, here's the request: Please don't mount your keybed straight to sheet metal. If you must have a sheet metal bottom panel, put a piece of wood (or something!) between the keybed and the panel. It makes a HUGE difference!

 

This I fully agree with. One of the main reasons that I still use my Quadrasynth Plus Piano because of the feel of the keys.

 

dB

 

 

[This message has been edited by Dave Bryce (edited 10-23-2000).]

[Guest]

Originally posted by eriknorlander@thetank.com:

 

Worst keybeds ever? The Pratt Reid (sp?) keybeds that appeared in the Minimoog, Prophet 5, OBX, OBXa and FVS, PPG, etc. Those things suck - ... well, let's just say they suck.

 

Cheers,

 

Erik[/b]

 

I must confess, since growing up playing classical organs in churches, I kind of liked the Pratt-Reed actions. P-R, a British company, supplied actions to many American pipe organ companies, including Wicks and Moeller. It was claimed that the P-R organ action required the same amount of force as a piano action, thereby allowing players of both to experience similar resistance, eliminating the "lead bat" syndrome. Again, the Mini Moog action is my favorite of all the synth actions. The Roland JX-8P wasn't bad--better than my VK-7. And the Fatar actions for QS8s and PC88s seem to vary from unit to unit. I rent a lot of backline and haven't found two units that play the same.

So, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

Ken

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by soper2@mindspring.com:

And the Fatar actions for QS8s and PC88s seem to vary from unit to unit.

 

I believe that the PC88 and the QS8 use different FATAR keybeds - the moving mass in the PC88 keybed is plastic, while the QS8 uses a metal moving mass. Very different in feel - tough to say which is better...it depends on your tastes, of course.

 

dB

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Dave Bryce (edited 10-24-2000).]

[Guest]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

I believe that the PC88 and the QS8 use different FATAR keybeds - the moving mass in the PC88 keybed is plastic, while the QS8 uses a metal moving mass. Very different in feel - tough to say which is better...it depends on your tastes, of course.

 

dB

 

[This message has been edited by Dave Bryce (edited 10-24-2000).]

[Guest]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

I believe that the PC88 and the QS8 use different FATAR keybeds - the moving mass in the PC88 keybed is plastic, while the QS8 uses a metal moving mass. Very different in feel - tough to say which is better...it depends on your tastes, of course.

 

--Sorry about the double post--the thing went nuts on me, I swear... Anyway, what I meant was that there seem to be big differences between units of the same make and model. I'll rent a PC88 in one city, and another in the next city, and their actions will be considerably different. Rarely do I get a new unit, and I'm aware that they "break in" a bit and loosen up. But I'm surprised at how the Kurzweils vary more than the Alesis' do--maybe it's the metal construction. Just an observation. Ken

[Alon]

Does anyone know what kind of Keyboard the VirusKB uses ?

 

I briefly checked one out last week, and was very impressed, at least according to my preference.

 

I was in a music store where they also had tons of others keyboards/controllers also setup.

To me, the VirusKB had a better feel, than just about anything else I tried.

 

It would be interesting to know if this is the case, or is it just my perception.

 

Thanx

[Ernie Rideout]

What about the Kawai MP9000? That's got a great action, in my book.

 

As for the worst, I was going to mention the old original Quadrasynths, but I don't want to bring up any bad memories. . . ;-)

 

Ernie Rideout

Keyboard Magazine

[Erik Norlander]

Originally posted by Alon:

Does anyone know what kind of Keyboard the VirusKB uses ? ...To me, the VirusKB had a better feel, than just about anything else I tried.

 

I am 99% sure that the VirusKB uses the 61-note version of the same Fatar keybed found in the 76-note Waldorf Wave and Emulator IV keyboard. It's a semi-weighted synth action, but the keys are solid underneath -- the keybed is very well engineered all the way through. This is my favorite synth keybed, hands down. Does anyone know if this keybed appears in synth products other than the ones mentioned here?

 

Cheers,

 

Erik

[Dave Bryce]

Originally posted by eriknorlander@thetank.com:

I am 99% sure that the VirusKB uses the 61-note version of the same Fatar keybed found in the 76-note Waldorf Wave and Emulator IV keyboard. It's a semi-weighted synth action, but the keys are solid underneath -- the keybed is very well engineered all the way through. This is my favorite synth keybed, hands down. Does anyone know if this keybed appears in synth products other than the ones mentioned here?

 

Cheers,

 

Erik

 

 

I, too, am a devotee of the keybed that you mention. I'm pretty sure that it was in the GeneralMusic S3, and I think it was in the Emu E-Synth as well.

 

dB

[marino]

A very similar action is in the Roland A-70; also, I recently played the Supernova II and it also seems to have it.

But, as I wrote in my previous post, I am a little bothered by the fact that the black keys on all these instruments are quite a bit longer than usual. The keybed feels great, but sometimes I find myself in trouble on fast runs.

What you think?

[BrianK]

A much underdiscussed topic...

 

I love the Rhodes Chroma feel. Great combination of all bits. The Polymoog is a close second, although the response of the synth does not mirror it accurately (this really affects our perception of feel).

 

There was a (Fatar?) Studio 1176 controller that felt great to me - I got it home, used it for two days and had incredibly painful joint and wrist pains. It went back to the shop. Does anyone know what the controller was I saw at NAMM? It was like a Fatar, but with ROUGH surface keys (almost like old wood). REALLY an amazing feel. I was in love, but too poor...