Move over all .... SONAR is coming

[Anderton]

>>Should I take this to mean that you haven't tried Digital Performer then, Craig? If not you really should. In my experience it has been phenomenally stable, robust, intuitive, and powerful. I can't recommend it highly enough.<<

 

This was on the Windows platform. All the source files I had to deal with were AVI and WAV. Yes, Digital Performer is great, but their Windows version is terrible .

[Salyphus]

Well, I think my implication was that perhaps your complaints were as much about the limitations of the platform as much as the software. But I really shouldn't go there should I...I'm in enough trouble here already http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[D.Triny]

Originally posted by Sal Orlando:

But I really shouldn't go there should I...I'm in enough trouble here already http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

Easy now I love Windows too ;-)

 

-david abraham

[Jose Cobelas]

Originally posted by David Abraham Fenton:

Easy now I love Windows too ;-)

 

-david abraham

 

I am an amateur musician, but also a pro industrial software consultant.

 

I can recall some silly arguments not too long ago with young Microsofties who truly believed that IBM S/390 was a thing from the past. I only got blank stares when I said that, actually, nothing really important (banks, airlines, insurance companies, the Social Security, and so on), ran on Windows platforms.

 

I HATE the Microsoft way of doing things, but sadly, I am convinced that as of today, Windows is a better bet for the near future in the music software market if you have a small project studio. Of course, like Doktor Anderton said, if you are REALLY a pro, you have them ALL.

 

Besos a todas y abrazos para los demas,

 

JoseC.

[Anderton]

>>I am convinced that as of today, Windows is a better bet for the near future in the music software market if you have a small project studio.<<

 

Okay, before this turns into a Microsoft vs. Apple thread, remember Anderton's Golden Rules of computer debates:

 

1. The issue is not which platform is better, the issue is which one sucks less.

2. For getting the job done, either one will do. There are two main exceptions: for high-end graphics and desktop publishing, the Mac rules. For industrial/scientific apps, the PC rules.

3. Good and bad software has been written for both platforms. It is not the fault of the platform if the software is bad. The platform should not be praised if the software is good.

4. Ports to another platform generally don't work as well as if the program was originally developed with both platforms in mind.

 

FYI, the program that refused to work for me on Windows was Cubase 4. But Cubase 5 works great.

 

Cakewalk has the advantage of having been PC-centric since the days of DOS. I think perhaps one reason why MOTU's stuff is so solid on the Mac, and Cakewalk on Windows, is because that's where the programs started - and they started there a LONG time ago.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by jcobelas@navegalia.com:

that, actually, nothing really important (banks, airlines, insurance companies, the Social Security, and so on), ran on Windows platforms.

 

Windows98 and NT is the main OS for a lot of our military systems, like Aegis missle ships and so forth.. It's being used in more "critical" places than one might think.

A scary thought.

 

http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald

[Salyphus]

VERY scary! But look who is in control of them if you really want to be frightened http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

 

I gotta get off this planet!

[Anderton]

>>Windows98 and NT is the main OS for a lot of our military systems, like Aegis missle ships and so forth.. It's being used in more "critical" places than one might think.

<<

 

The only reason Windows 98 is used as the main operating system is so that people can play that solitaire game on off-hours .

[D.Triny]

Originally posted by jcobelas@navegalia.com:

I HATE the Microsoft way of doing things, but sadly, I am convinced that as of today, Windows is a better bet for the near future in the music software market

 

estoy de acuerdo...

 

especially as we see Microsoft investing heavily in their WDM Audio technology going forward. Plus I just like the fact that I have billion dollar software on my workstation. That's how much they invested in it.

 

That said I just played at a session at Morning Star studios (PA) where they used DP on a MAC, very very nice software there. Funny thing both MOTU and Cakewalk are in the Boston area.

 

-david abraham

[Guest]

Originally posted by Mike O:

I do however have a problem with your statement: "bugs being an inevitable part of complex programs". The more we as customers and users adopt this attitude the more we allow vendor/mfgs to market and "deliver" shoddy work. It DOES NOT have to be this way. Champion those vendors that do not market junk. Expose those who do.

 

Have you ever apologized to consumers of your product because the music delivered was "so complex and therefore I made lots of mistakes"?

 

Why do we apply one set of values to virtually every other product except software marketed direct to consumers?

 

 

I have to disagree with your comparison. We apply different values because there's little comparison.

 

I've worked on software development in the past (doing mostly management nowadays). Troubleshooting a complex program is a pain, and involves simulating many different scenarios. People often think the bugs are obvious, but they quite often are not. You may beta test a product for months and have it crash the following week. The programs response to different hardware is a nightmare in itself, and causes a big part of the problems. One of the Mac's advantage is basically that. It's easier to troubleshoot an o/s when there are less variables (Note that I'm not defending microsoft; I still think they need to get their act together and deliver a better product.)

 

Speaking of that, as software programmers, we have to deal with idiosynchasies with the platform we are working on. I've had programs crash that I couldn't fix, which then worked flawlessly after an NT SP upgrade.

 

Which is not say that we should accept crappy products. But with new PC/Mac applications there is a risk involved, and although I see the situation improving I think it will still haunt new users. Hey, risk is not just in software anyways; what about car recalls? New technology presents risks.

 

Sorry for the OT, but having gotten abuse in the past for software bugs this is a sore point for me. :-) And I don't mean to state that the music-making process is clear-cut either. It's just VERY different.

 

Rod

[Alndln]

Well said.This was always my argument whenever a PC/Mac thing ever springs up.The PC has too many third party products(hardware/software)to blame the platform itself entirely,although like you said it shares some of the blame.Iv'e seen many posts with scathing remarks about a particular piece of software with no regard to thier own software/hardware setup particulars.Unfortunatly in this time period especially, a DAW user must be aware of his entire setup and how everything works in conjuction with each other or face one incompatibility problem after another.I believe as the Macintosh becomes more open to third party products,users of that platform will suffer simalar fates.The price to pay if you want magic in a bottle.

[D.Triny]

Another thing that contributes to the illusion of Mac stability is the fact that many traditional pro studios who use Macs aren't trying to compose/Mix/master/etc on the box. They basically use it as a HD tracker/editor - not much can go wrong there. I think the PC market is much larger, has more HW/SW variables, is accessible to many more hobbyists, prosumers (as well as professionals). The home user is trying to do everything in the box - from conception to mixdown. Couple that with the fact that many of the DAW vendors who release cross-platform products come from Mac perspective, and have frequently released buggy PC versions. All this contributes to the Mac is superior illusion.

 

As for me the promised land is going to be Windows 2000, with Dual PIII's, SONAR, Reason and two M-Audio Delta 1010 sound cards.

 

-david abraham

 

This message has been edited by David Abraham Fenton on 02-09-2001 at 12:46 PM

[Jose Cobelas]

Originally posted by rsaboiasilva@hotmail.com:

Hey, risk is not just in software anyways; what about car recalls? New technology presents risks.

 

 

Having purchased a PC with an Intel CC820 motherboard last year (with 256Mb SDRAM), only to have it replaced recently by an VC820 just because Intel couldn´t make it work properly with SDRAM and had to recall them (and losing 128Mb in the process), I definitely (and painfuly) agree with you.

 

JoseC.

[John Sayers]

FYI

 

The "Sonar" (1930)

The "Sonar" was a monophonic heterodyning vacuum tube instrument developed by N.Anan'yev in the USSR from 1930. The instrument had a fingerboard/continuous controller to vary the pitch of the oscilator. The Sonar was said to have been able to reproduce simple speech phrases such as "mama", "papa" as well as conventional instrumental sounds

 

Cheers

John http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Guest]

Apple has had major trouble the last year in getting mototola to work out the kinks in manufacturing cpu's. Also, It seems more r&d from them has gone into making machines with special dsp capabilities to burn on photoshop then on fpu wich is what us audio goons really need.

 

I think now that they have the new g4 architecture rollong out of factories there WONT be the drought in speed upgrades there was the last year.I think an apple is a sound investment, as a company they have a loyal core base and they have minimal debt.

 

Still, Im gettin a pc to sit next to my mac so I can Use both http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I want my GIGASTUDIO http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif. I can think of good reasons to use each platform, so Im not going to say one is better then the other.

 

I will say that mac's are as worry free as youll find, but pc's definately give you more bang for the buck as well as cheapo software that in some instances is as good as the expensive stuff. In favor of mac, even p.c. guys have to admit that in these type of forums there are WAYYYYY more posts about some guys p.c. going screwy then there are for macs. Mac stability is not a myth, its the reality I live every day.

[scottk184cs.com]

So has anyone actually worked on or heard the Sonar? And is it really meant to replace Pro Audio 9? When will it be out?

 

-Scott

[rumpelstiltskin.]

Originally posted by scottk184@cs.com:

So has anyone actually worked on or heard the Sonar? And is it really meant to replace Pro Audio 9? When will it be out?

 

 

cakewalk is scheduled to release it in march2001, but who knows when it will actually be available. it is meant to replace pro audio 9, and it allegedly has a redesigned user interface. go to the cakewalk web site, http://www.cakewalk.com to check it out.

[D.Triny]

Originally posted by planr411@earthlink.net:

 

Still, Im gettin a pc to sit next to my mac so I can Use both http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif I want my GIGASTUDIO http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif. I can think of good reasons to use each platform, so Im not going to say one is better then the other.

 

 

with Gigastudio/Gigasampler Nemesys really did a lot to improve the credibility of Windows platform for a lot of musicians...I think SONAR with it's support of the very latest technologies (DirectX8 plug-in automation, WDM/low latency, DXi) will really help to solidify the fact that this platform is viable for audio and here to stay.

 

-david abraham

[Master Zap]

I dunno I used cakwalk "forever" as a MIDI sequencer. And recently I got a big bad computer so I wanted to go into audio sequencing and use the sexy VST instruments and all that.

 

So there started my long hard journey into cubase land. Cubase LOOKS good. Lots of sexy knobs and shit. But if you just take out effect automation and VST instruments, is there anything, anything at all, you can do in Cubase that you can't do in Cakewalk?

 

And Cubase only has one level of Undo. OUCH.

 

So I started with Logic.

 

It confused the hell out of me. It looks totally un-windows like (guys, there are UI standards) and I dunno, I am just scraping the surface but when I got the news of Sonar - that cakewalk would be getting those three essential things missing - loop stretchinc, automated effects, and virtual instruments, I just threw away Cubase and Logic and are now awaiting my Sonar.

 

Sorry but as a MIDI sequencing guy at heart anyway, Cubase just doesnt cut it, sorry. It's MIDI features are lacking. Logic might be great, but I couldn't get into the interface.

 

So I am joyously awaiting SONAR

 

/Z

[GY]

I'm surprised that no one has expressed their impatience with the delivery date of the Lynx Two !!! This could be a killer card!

[Alndln]

That's because were discussing Sonar,not Audio hardware.But on that note,the card does look promising except for 2 things,No GSIF, and even worse, No WDM which could make it DOA.

[D.Triny]

Originally posted by Alndln@hotmail.com:

That's because were discussing Sonar,not Audio hardware.But on that note,the card does look promising except for 2 things,No GSIF, and even worse, No WDM which could make it DOA.

 

speaking of WDM, reports are that the latest M-Audio and MOTU WDM drivers are reliably getting <= 2ms latency. Probably with high CPU consumption, but with dual Athlon/Palominos around the corner....yee ha!

 

-david abraham

[Dylan]

The reason that GigaSampler/Studio has been such a big hit in studios that are primarily Mac-based isn't entirely due to the fact that Giga is such a kick-ass product. What is overlooked is that setting up a dedicated Giga system is pretty easy. They have strict requirements about what soundcards are compatible, etc, and when it comes down to it, all Giga does is play samples from hard disk. How hard can this be? Now look at a program like Cubase, Logic, or Sonar. These programs do ten times the stuff that any soft-synth does now including soft-synth/sampling, which is often times why sequencing combo apps take more tweakin' to get up and running.

 

Since the Mac has never been a true multi-tasking OS, most Mac guys are not use to using more than one (okay, maybe two) audio/sequencing application at a time. Budget PC user's fall guilty of trying to do too much stuff at once (You mean I can't run Cakewalk, Giga, Sound Forge, Reaktor, and B4 all at once on my Celeron 500 ?). But when you setup a dedicated system for any task, including Giga, it is almost guaranteed that it will work. So I could really care less if a Mac snob now has more respect for PC's because of Giga. There have been several reasons to use PC's for several years now, and Giga is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

-Dylan

 

Originally posted by David Abraham Fenton:

with Gigastudio/Gigasampler Nemesys really did a lot to improve the credibility of Windows platform for a lot of musicians...I think SONAR with it's support of the very latest technologies (DirectX8 plug-in automation, WDM/low latency, DXi) will really help to solidify the fact that this platform is viable for audio and here to stay.

 

-david abraham

[Dylan]

I wouldn't phase out the LynxTwo card only because it doesn't yet support WDM or Giga. First off, this card is not targeting itself to your average home studio user, but instead is intended for broadcast, mastering, film, etc. Having WDM is not an issue if they have a good MME driver for Win2k for the time being. Keep in mind that by the time that Windows XP is out everyone will have to be up to speed with WDM, but until that point most applications will not be up to speed support WDM, primarily in regards to 24-bit compatibility. Hopefully, by the time that XP is out Giga will support WDM and won't need proprietary GSIF support.

 

Originally posted by Alndln@hotmail.com:

That's because were discussing Sonar,not Audio hardware.But on that note,the card does look promising except for 2 things,No GSIF, and even worse, No WDM which could make it DOA.

[BOOKUMDANO]

I watched the Sonar demo at Namm and I guess I'm the only one who sees a glaring weak point in the concept of a studio sandwich (equivalent to the ancient Arp Quadra that was called a synthesizer sandwich as I remember). There are some folks out there who want all the features of a program such as Sonar to operate simultaneously (like me for example). High track count, loop playback, midi tracks, software synths. I don't see any P4 or Athlon C (ddr ram, overclocked, raid drives etc) being able to do anything but choke on these types of simultaneous requests. Even in a multi processor, win2000 configuration. Multiple sync'd Pc's with their own separate monitors, running separate programs at the same time(Gigasampler, Acid, Cakewalk etc) all routed to the console work for me. It would drive me crazy just having to switch screens between all those Sonar functions ...even if it could do them all at the same time.

[Dylan]

I think it's very possible to do all this on a fairly modest PC (i.e., 800 MHz Duron/Celeron). Loop playback shouldn't really up the system requirements a whole lot more than say Cakewalk 9, but you can bet yer buns that the DXi will. Sonar is essentially Cakewalk's answer to a Cubase 5 type of setup that integrates all of this stuff (the studio sandwich as you referred to it as). Many people have been using this type of setup for a while now and 500MHz + PC's. The biggest downside that I can see right now is not having enough screen space for all of these goodies. I'll probably have to invest in a dual VGA output video card and an extra monitor to fully be able to take advantage of Sonar. Even if you don't plan on using DXi, looping tools, WDM support, etc, the stability improvements of Sonar should make the upgrade well worth it for all Pro Audio users who only do basic Audio+MIDI work.

 

-Dylan

[Alndln]

WDM may not be all that important in all apps,the Lynx 2 does have Asio 2 after all,but if you wan't use those DXi's in Sonar it's essential unless you like to take a coffee break in between pressing the key's and hearing the notes.

[D.Triny]

from: http://www.cakewalk.com/Press/PR-XMix.htm

 

 

WINTER MUSIC CONFERENCE MIAMI, FL Cakewalk, developer of the worlds best-selling music and sound software for Windows, today announced an exclusive worldwide distribution agreement with X-Mix, the worlds premier producer of club remixes for DJs. Under the terms of the agreement Cakewalk will market worldwide a series of audio loop libraries for Windows-based recording and remixing software. The first X-Mix audio loop library in the series is scheduled for release in Spring 01.

 

 

-david abraham