2 days at a "big world class studio"

[Guest]

Just finished a project at one of the biggest studios in the country.

 

This studio has it all, SSL, Neve, outboard for days, beautiful rooms and an orchestra room...basically a 5 or 6 million dollar facility.

 

The assistant rolls out the PT rack, 72 i/o, acres of farms, everything.

 

1st off....the engineer tells my client that "audio isn't important to these guys" refering to us "because we use ProTools"

 

How dare this man talk to my client and basically insult us because of the gear we keep. I listened to my work in his monitors and it sounded fine.

 

He then transfered my 24 bit ProTools sessions to a 3348 (16bit) and it actually sounded worse.

 

Then whoa and behold, I check out the Plug in folder of the PT system and it was full of pirate software.

 

My Questions:

 

1. Why are some engineers so narrow minded that their minds won't even consider new technologies.

 

2. Why do these engineers scourn at us little guys who can't afford a zillion dollar console and a $250000 recorder?

 

3. Why do they think that we "don't care about audio" because we use computers, and in my humble opinion one of the most creative audio tools ever (ProTools)

 

4. Why does a studio that cost a couple of million dollars get away with using pirated software?

[Fletcher]

First off...was the 'moron' who said something to your client joking? It's not uncommon for people to joke around during setups. Granted, joking around like that in front of a client, especially a client they don't know from Adam, usually isn't a career move...but it's been known to happen.

 

Now, if the brother was being serious, then where were you? In my experience with stuff like that, first time warning, second time the motherfucker is out on the street, or missing parts. You don't necessarily have to 'rat the guy out', but management should be aware of a potential problem at their facility.

 

As far as the 3348 transfer went...again, where were you? If it didn't sound better, it didn't sound better...don't use it. Did you have a 'voice' on the production, or were you a 'klingon'? If you had a voice, use it.

If you were a 'klingon', then use you voice wisely, in a manner that will enhance your usefulness as opposed to the general interference of typical 'klingon status'.

 

I very often transfer to 3348 when I'm mixing, I find it puts my audio at a disadvantage. I used to work off the 'sync head'...but now with alot of studios not charging me/my client extra to run the 3348, I'll transfer over, mix for a while off the 3348, not beat the shit out of my analog master...then when it's time to print, pull the 2" out of the box, do a couple tweezes, and start printing.

 

There have been a couple times when the assistant or the house tech has felt the spiritual need to chime in and comment on my work methods...if they do it right, and with a tad of humor, in a manner where it doesn't make my client feel uncomfortable...they live another day.

 

From an assistant, they're allowed one stupid comment, two non-major mistakes, one-not getting the cream/sugar balance on my coffee right...after that, chances are better than even they shan't be seen in *my* room again.

I say *my* room, because when I'm working, it's *my* turf. This is *my* kingdom, and all who enter best be on their best motherfuckin' behaviour...unless they are part of the 'royal family'...in which case it's their kingdom too.

 

From a 'know it all house tech'...chances are if they've been around a while, they know to keep their mouth shut, or more importantly, how and when to open it.

 

There are a bunch of 'house techs' I've played "the dozens" with...it often assists the level of our communication, the overall vibe of the gig...and at times, I've needed to try to communicate with the house tech in front of the client while talking a bit over the client's head to describe a problem I don't necessarily want the client to know exists...but the house dude better have fixed by the time we're back from break.

 

There was another time when a 'night tech' felt the spiritual need to come into our room [uninvited] and comment. Not a career move as the staff found him gaffed to a pole in front of the building the next morning...as in two rolls of duct tape, as in I don't know what he did about peeing or getting it out of his hair [we never saw him again]...and the studio was a bit more selective as to who was sentenced...uhhh, I mean working on our gig.

 

The 'cracked software' could very well have been there from other clients bringing it into the building and leaving it there. From what I understand, this is not too uncommon with 'house systems'. In a facility the size and level you described, having 'cracked software' can be more of a public relations nightmare [as in liability, as in costs the place more money in lost revenue than they'd spend on buying the software] than a benefit. Don't forget, music like software is 'intellectual property'. The client needs to feel that their masters are safe in the building [as in won't end up on Napster before dawn]...'cracked software' doesn't help that "comfort level".

 

It's also the kind of thing that often flys under staff and management's 'radar'...so you might want to mention it to someone.

 

As for you feeling that the staff at this facility was 'looking down on you'...that's your fault or insecurity. You're the client. You're no different than any other client.

Madonna's money is better than your money? I don't think so. That 'Worldclass' facility is there to suit your needs, don't be impressed that you're working there. The staff needs to be impressed that the studio could draw you as a client. Alot of guys have a hard time with that concept the first time they walk into a huge/legendary/big-time joint. The fact of the matter is, you *are* the most important thing in that building to you, and the money behind you. Do not forget that.

 

If the 'staff' doesn't realize this...then it's your job to "point it out". Usually a call to the 'studio manager' with a "____ is an asshole, I don't want him on this gig, get me someone else...now" works like a charm. Gets your message right across, loud and clear. If you need to get the point across, nothing does it like a "public hanging"...and that's how 'second assistants' are best used...if you feel bad about it, buy the kid an ice cream later.

 

-----

 

Fletcher

Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com

[Tiny G]

My experience is this:

First,

The studio owners/ management should hear these complaints in order to address their staff accordingly.

Second,

I believe that studios are good because of the people, not the gear, every studio has gear, gear is bought, not earned. People are by far the most valuable commodity a studio can have.

Third,

I'm sorry to say that studios don't do enough to hire the right people to work for them. They get an assistant who walked in the door and crawled his way through years of hard work to be a "staff" engineer. But does this make them the best or most qualified choice? Other businesses go out and find the people they want, even hire them away from other companies, competitors, smaller, similar companies. They find the people that are going to make them the best.

 

Now don't get me wrong, some studios take great pride in their staff and on the whole I think the intern/assistant/staff engineering cycle is good at weeding out most of the people who aren't serious about it. But, I still think it's easier to hire the person who walks in the door than going out to find good employees (most of whom wouldn't be actively searching for a new job).

 

And as a final note, everyone has bad days. Sometimes engineers stick their foot in it when they should just shut up. It happens. Hell, I've done it. If it's a repeated problem then let the management know in a thoughtful and courteous way that you were unhappy with parts of your experience and let them handle it.

 

I would think that Chris Stone would have some good thoughts on this kind of thing. . . maybe he'll answer you too.

Good luck. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

 

------------------

Tiny G

[alphajerk]

i believe i would of assaulted him verbally. then i would have assaulted him physically. then doused him with my hot coffee. then i would have thrown him out of the session.

 

that one little comment would have done it in for him, no second chances. that comment was uncalled for and is in no way joking, especially with said to your client.

[earfatigue]

1. Why are some engineers so narrow minded that their minds won't even consider new technologies.

 

honestly? because the revolution in HD recording has got a lot of the pot-bellied, coffee-swilling, pony-tailed mid 40's dyed-in-the-oxide guys running scared. most of these types disdained digidesign from the getgo and assumed it would just go away. in 2001 any studio that doesn't have pro tools capabilities in their arsenal is losing clients.

 

so the problem is they're not with it on a conceptual level. and while there may be some things left to be desired in the audio quality of the hardware, there's no reason WHATSOEVER you can't make an amazing sounding record with it.

 

so moogey-foogey doesn't understand it. so he rips on it. because he probably isn't very adept at using it.

 

: 2. Why do these engineers scourn at us little guys who can't afford a zillion dollar console and a $250000 recorder?

 

see #1. they're pissed off that they don't have the ability of making hit records locked away in their dark tower anymore.

 

: 3. Why do they think that we "don't care about audio" because we use computers, and in my humble opinion one of the most creative audio tools ever

 

two-way street this. there is certainly a more pristine signal path than what you get with pro tools. there are some sonic limitations and there are some notable degradation footprints that can stack up when you're trying to make a record on par with a 'professional' release (another term that's becoming a tad relative).

 

:4. Why does a studio that cost a couple of million dollars get away with using pirated software?

 

because they don't think it affects them. 90% of the time it doesn't. they could at least rename the files and take the [k] out. but that's not my studio.

 

judson snell

slang music group

[Jan Folkson]

Musow.

 

People are generally narrow minded because of fear. This guy obviously feels threatened by your use of new technology. Probably because he doesn't understand it or know how to use it. People generally are resistant to change, especially when it involves their careers. If he's got a real beef with the technology then he shouldn't be working on sessions that use it. And if he has to work those sessions he should just shut up and do his job. That should answer your first three questions.

 

The fourth question is far more difficult to answer and the most disturbing. There's no reason why a multi-million dollar facility should be using pirated software. Hell, there's no reason why anybody should be using pirated software, but especially a "professional" facility that charges for it's use.

 

I'd talk to the studio manager or owner and let them know that your on to them. Recording studios like any other business keeps and earns clients based on it's service and it's reputation. Talking to the manager/owner would hopefully "shame" them into getting the software legit and taking the cracked stuff off of their systems.

 

I've used this approach with some success. You don't mention what city you're in but if there's one major multi-room facility where you are there's probably another that would love having your business.

 

- Jan

[staupephotmail.com]

Originally posted by earfatigue:

1. Why are some engineers so narrow minded that their minds won't even consider new technologies.

 

honestly? because the revolution in HD recording has got a lot of the pot-bellied, coffee-swilling, pony-tailed mid 40's dyed-in-the-oxide guys running scared. most of these types disdained digidesign from the getgo and assumed it would just go away. in 2001 any studio that doesn't have pro tools capabilities in their arsenal is losing clients.

Yeh, Creed's latest was tracked to Protools and their lousy old fart engineer had the balls to drop the whole mixes to 2" tape. What a geezer looser. All old people have mush for brains. Hell I'm surprized Roger Nichols, GM, Craig Anderton or anyone older than you has the gall to call themselves engineers. Its pathetic really.

 

Eric

[earfatigue]

quote:Yeh, Creed's latest was tracked to Protools and their lousy old fart engineer had the balls to drop the whole mixes to 2" tape. What a geezer looser.

 

okay, first of all. you missed my point entirely. second of all, your attempt at being sardonic isn't really funny.

 

third of all, i was not making some sort of broad ageist comment that says anybody over the age of 35 has no clue. that's not the case at all. but i do see two types of engineers who were steeped in analog technology. those who embrace digital technology and those who disdain it. and out of the sect that disdain it, some of them are too lazy or flustered to learn to use it effectively.

 

:All old people have mush for brains. Hell I'm surprized Roger Nichols, GM, Craig Anderton or anyone older than you has the gall to call themselves engineers.

 

oh, christ. read what i said again! you've got it all wrong. i'm talking about what i'm seeing in a 5-studio facility day in and day out. in fact, here's an example. a certain somewhat-famous mix engineer came in for a mix session and we had a conversation of sonic solutions vs. pro tools. you should have heard the things he said "oh, any idiot can use that shit. it's not a real tool. it's for hobbyists" blah blah blah. i asked him if he had actually ever mixed or tracked or even used pro tools and he told me 'no'.

 

you don't see that as a little narrow-minded?

 

btw, this person (like my quote) had a ponytail, drank a lot of coffee, and was more pot bellied than a vietnamese pig.

 

but what do i know?

 

if you don't get what i'm saying then just don't respond.

 

judson snell

slang music group

[staupephotmail.com]

judson,

I do get your point, and of course I was exaggerating yours if only to make a point of my own. My apologies! You did say "some engineers" not all, granted. However you did play the stereotype card!

 

Go back through the archives here and pull up MixFix's threads. He was an unabashed analog freak, and caught tons of flack for it. I could easily see him saying something rude like "Protools is for losers" after a long day in the studio. That doesn't make him a worn out old fart, in my book it makes him someone who refuses to go with the latest trend just because it is fashionable. It makes him a freak for the best possible sound. This social moron who offended his client may have been right on in his statement, and just didn't have the skill to communicate it.

I bristle at the stereotype that says it is the old that won't adopt new technology. That is mostly bull (with the usual token exceptions), and anyone who propagates that notion deserves to be called out on it. The media is just brimming with stories about clueless computer illiterate parents and their wis bang children. My computer science class is full of older folks and the brightest ones are in their 50's. I just don't buy it and I thought I smelled some of that bias in yur post. Maybe I was wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

 

I am also probably overreacting here and again I apologise if that is so.

 

Eric

[Alon]

Working in a "world class facility" doesn't really mean shit.

 

The gear may be there, but if the people suck, well then you're going to get shit results.

 

I'd rather work in a decent project studio setup w/ a "world class" engineer, then work in a "world class" studio w/ a clueless engineer.

 

I don't know if this is the case mentioned above, but people sometimes expect "Miraculous" results when booking into Major (Famous) studios.

 

Clients pay thousands a day for a room, then cheap out when it comes to getting an engineer. They end up paying some staff person like 25 an hour, and expect "world class" results.

 

This has probably been mentioned many times, by people other than me, but it is not the gear that makes the record, it's the people. And if you're working with crap people, it really doesn't matter where you're working.

 

There's plenty of "world class" facilities around, and most of them are competing for the same clients. Why not go somewhere else next time ?

[Anderton]

>>1. Why are some engineers so narrow minded that their minds won't even consider new technologies.<<

 

This phenomenon is not isolated to the recording industry. Some people fear change, some people embrace. I'm more comfortable around the latter.

 

>>2. Why do these engineers scourn at us little guys who can't afford a zillion dollar console and a $250000 recorder?<<

 

Because if the secret ever got out that all that really matters is the music, and it hardly matters what you record it on, their investment would be wasted. Sure, I'd just as soon hear great music recorded on great gear. But I'll settle for great music recorded on good gear. And it's true, machines don't kill music, people do.

 

>>3. Why do they think that we "don't care about audio" because we use computers, and in my humble opinion one of the most creative audio tools ever (ProTools)<<

 

Obviously you care enough to use Pro Tools, which is considered a pretty good recording medium. I guess none of the acts in the 60s and 70s cared about music because they had tape hiss in the their recordings.

 

>>4. Why does a studio that cost a couple of million dollars get away with using pirated software?<<

 

Because, as it obvious from your first group of statements, they're assholes. At least they're consistently assholic.

 

As to age -- I don't have a pot belly or a pony tail, but I don't shave my head and have a nose ring, either. The fact is a lot of people do drop off the learning curve as they get older. But some don't. It's sad to see someone who's stuck in the past, and has essentially given up on enjoying all the wonderful new things life can offer up. But again, this isn't limited to the recording industry.

[Steven Denike]

I hope you guys have seen the 'Fix It In The Mix' thread, where people harangue from the other side of the table.

[Tiny G]

Judson,

I think we get your point. A quick search comes up with your company web page and your bio. . .

I think it's great that you are here voicing a strong opinion, BUT YOU ARE GOING TO GET A LOT MORE ARGUMENT THAN AGREEMENT FROM THIS GROUP!

This is such a diverse group with regards to range of talent, opinions, pro vs. hobbyist, and age that I'm surprised you didn't get a stronger backlash. Your comment seemed to come from a narrow observation of a small number of cases. Also, technology moves so quickly that it's almost impossible to be totally aware of all the current gear/possibilities and some people don't want to learn it, for whatever reason.

We (I'm in your same age group) grew up in a different world than those just 10 years older. We've always had home computers, microwaves, and we don't know anything other than stereo/color TV broadcast. Our world has been in constant change at an ever increasing rate since we were in grade school. I think, and others may disagree, that it's somewhat easier for the younger generations to adapt to change.

But with all that being said. . . some of those older, potbellied, coffee swilling guys have made the best sounding recordings that WILL EVER BE MADE! I'm going to try and learn everything I can from them and give them every ounce of respect that I can muster in hopes that someday, a punk kid will do the same for me in 20 years.

 

------------------

Tiny G

 

. . and about 5 other people just posted while I was typing this. . . but I'll stick with it. . even the "younger adapting easier" part.

 

[This message has been edited by Tiny G (edited 12-06-2000).]

[Guest]

"I guess none of the acts in the 60s and 70s cared about music because they had tape hiss in the their recordings. "

 

Ouch http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[ozbassyahoo.com]

The ironic conclusion to this story.....

 

The material came back to my studio for additional tracking, as ProTools sessions on CD-Rom.

 

One of the CDs was corrupt and absolutely unreadable in any of my four macs(Assistant - "Oh man we dont need to verify, I never have any problems"), then when I get the replacament he had wiped all the work out of one of the sessions that we had gone there to do! I call him, and I get the message through the client ( not from him ) that it was already wiped off the computer!! Fortunately it was mastered to (16 bit) dat, but now I have to reacquire the audio and place it using phase-locking as the reference.

 

So what could have been 24 bit direct to PT turned into -

 

PT to 3348

3348 analogue out to aging Neve VR desk

Analogue in into 16 bit dat

Digital transfer back to PT to realign manually.

 

Now that's a true commitment to audio quality!!!

[Pro Jules]

I think a half hour in the manager or owners office to see what they will do to compensate you. At least the idiot that insulted you and did a poor job should get his ass kicked.

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/mad.gif

Jules

[Guest]

OK, now I admit to wondering just what studio you could have been at.

 

I can't imagine why you didn't insist on testing the backups before leaving the session.

 

This is just such a horror show!

[Brenton Trott]

You should definitely knock some heads!

 

Brenton

[Anderton]

>>We've always had home computers, microwaves, and we don't know anything other than stereo/color TV broadcast. Our world has been in constant change at an ever increasing rate since we were in grade school. I think, and others may disagree, that it's somewhat easier for the younger generations to adapt to change.<<

 

This is something I have to be aware of as I write articles: more and more people have never, for example, lived in a world that didn't have synthesizers--but they also never programmed old monophonic monsters using patch cords, so while they are adept at using synths, they don't have a clue about signal flow. Sometimes the older guys can give a perspective that is genuinely helpful to those coming up. Sometimes they're just old geezers talking about how things used to be better.

 

As to your studio experience, now everything makes sense. Arrogance is often a cover-up for incompetence.

[Chris Stone]

musow,

 

Having founded and owned the Record Plant for many years and having been a co-founder of SPARS, where for our early years we were an elitist group of the finest studios in the U.S., I am incensed that you received this kind of treatment from any studio which considers itself a world class Mothership.

 

I think the above comments from Fletcher, Tiny G., Alpha and others are very appropriate for this situation.

 

If you do not wish to get involved in reporting this to studio management, which I think is crucial, I would appreciate it if you would email me (cstone@worldstudio.com) the name of the studio so that I may advise them for you.

 

It's kind of like finding a rat in a 4 star restaurant; you have to kill it quickly before it affects the most often well earned reputation of the facility.

 

Chris Stone

[MusicMan]

You big guns are so damn secretive. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[ozbassyahoo.com]

Thanks so much for all your support guys...

 

I kind of have a policy about always lokking at the positive spin on things. At the end of the day, that asshole engineer and his dumbass assistant achieved a fantastic orchestra sound and the final product that I delivered to my client was perhaps the best work that we had ever achieved.

 

And I learnt a really valuable lesson, so that when I go back to that facility (the studio is incredible, despite the personnel) I will be able to make more decisive selections of how I want sessions there recorded, and how I would approach certain personnel ( if I used them!).

 

To me, that is so much worth that petty bullshit!!

 

At the end of the day, my client knows what happened, and those staff know what happened.

[Anderton]

>>You big guns are so damn secretive. <<

 

"Discreet" is a better term. The name of the studio isn't as relevant as the experience.

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by Chris Stone:

 

It's kind of like finding a rat in a 4 star restaurant; you have to kill it quickly before it affects the most often well earned reputation of the facility.

 

Chris...sorry, pet peeve...I think you mean 'effect' as opposed to 'affect'...but I could be wrong [wouldn't be the first time]...

 

How do they handle the "rat" kind of a thing in California...I know in New York there are those wetlands around Sheepshead Bay...

 

-----

 

Fletcher

Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com

[tonemonkeyyahoo.com]

ozbass@yahoo.com-

 

I truly don't want to be a smart-ass, or be insensitive to your pain. But...

 

>>that asshole engineer and his dumbass assistant achieved a fantastic orchestra sound and the final product that I delivered to my client was perhaps the best work that we had ever achieved<<

 

I dunno, man. It seems like they did their job very well. You ended up with "best work that we had ever achieved." Forgive me for saying so, but your grousing about the process kind of makes you look like the amateur.

 

'Sorry I couldn't put it more diplomatically, but I'm just trying to be honest here. Next time you might want to play things a little closer to the vest and wait for the final result. It's a small world and small (semi-private) criticisms can often morph into big bruhahas. I'd hate to see that happen to ya.

 

Be well.

[MusicMan]

>>You big guns are so damn secretive. <<

 

"Discreet" is a better term. The name of the studio isn't as relevant as

the experience.

 

That's easy for you to say. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[kent_powellpalmercay.com]

Fletch, for the record, Chris was right. "Affect" was the correct usage. Sorry, it just brought out the English major in me. I feel your pain. I want to strangle people when they say 'the point is "mute".'

[nhcomp45aol.com]

Hey Fletch, I'm from Brooklyn, You from Brooklyn?

[ST.Morigeaugte.net]

Originally posted by kent_powell@palmercay.com:

Fletch, for the record, Chris was right. "Affect" was the correct usage. Sorry, it just brought out the English major in me. I feel your pain. I want to strangle people when they say 'the point is "mute".'

 

 

Yeah!! makes me wanna giv'em the 'bute'

 

Mo http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/cool.gif

[Anderton]

>>I dunno, man. It seems like they did their job very well. You ended up with "best work that we had ever achieved." Forgive me for saying so, but your grousing about the process kind of makes you look like the amateur.<<

 

Yes and no. Attitude is part of the package of professionalism. For example, someone posted a question here about DC offset which I haven't had time to answer, but I'm about to do so. Now, if the post starts off "Hey you jerk, sure I'll tell you what DC offset is, and I'll give a really comprehensive explanation that is factually correct. But jeez, you're such a loser for having to post something like this on a bulletin board. Hey can't you read a manual? Anyway, dumbass, here's what DC offset is all about..."

 

I suppose you could make a case that all that matters is that he got his question answered, but there's more to the equation than that. I think Chris Stone's response is very appropriate. People need to know what's going on at their studio because the image being projected involves more than just the final product.