Record Co A&R Depts..Do they suck??..

[JP_dup5]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Why should radio stations or record companies tell you what to listen to?

-Lee

 

Sadly enough, if you look at this in a business manner, the exact opposite is what's happening.

What is the main concern of any business? attracting shareholders.

How do you attract shareholders? profit/growth

How do you obtain profit and growth? with a product that is marketable.

who determines what is marketable? the consumer.

trust me, if limp bizkit didn't attract the consumer dollars, you wouldn't have the deftones, etc.

If polka album sales went to multi-million copies, the labels would be scrambling for every polka band (are they called bands?) they could find.

I buy my music off the used cd ranks at a local music store...Tommy Bolin, Les dudek, the Beatles, hell I even bought a used sly stone cd last year after hearing everyday people on an auto ad. The only new cds I have bought in years is Santana, creed, and Lenny Kravitz, and that was all in the last 8 months

jp

 

[This message has been edited by JP (edited 12-07-2000).]

[batman]

Great posts, one-and-all...thankx..

I thought it'd touch some raw nerves..how many

record companies are left?....four?..all giant multi-nationals, dominated by accountants and executive boards devoted to their shareholders

etc, etc....

I've only just got back tonite to check this thread...too busy making unpopular, unsellable music....YIPEE!!

Gonna check out the links posted by the aptly-named Fletcher, next (you invariably make your arrows straight, true and pointed, man)

Keep on keepin' on, mes braves...

Ade

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by johnsay@lis.net.au:

Surely the biggest influence has been the influx of lawyers and accountants into the music biz. Our publishing companies used to be a source of funding for artist development but now the accountants have taken over and it's all gone.

 

they've definitely screwed the industry here in OZ.

 

No John-Your government fucked your section of the industry in the ass without the benefit of Vaseline. A couple of years ago, your government installed 'parallel import legislation' which dropped import tariffs for imported compact disks, containing both 'software' as well as 'music' [hey, data's data].

 

This meant that the bootleg plants of China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, and a couple other 3rd world islands in the sea could package up their output and send it into the land down under...with no import tarriffs.

 

Now, the Australian music industry was fueled by the profits attained by the Australian arms of the major music company's...but, they had this responsibility to pay overhead crap, ya know...like the artists, artist publishing, ya know...the reason why people who make music professionally work, the getting paid part. There was no way to keep the 'official release' of the new 'Madonna' record from being underpriced by the pirate version of the new 'Madonna record'...hence...the "official version" didn't sell for shit, hence the 'actual music industry' was taking a financial bath. But hey, the consumer was saving big time bucks on their 'music product purchases'.

 

The "bootleg" product from the 'not so authorized' plants [yes my friend, piracy of both music and software is well documented and rampant in the 3rd world-PAC Rim] was now free to flood the market. The independent distributors were looking at lower priced product they could get "fronted" to them, the consumer was going to see fabulous savings from the 'parallel import product'!! Your government was a champion of the working man!!

 

They just removed the profit that fueled the rest of the Australian music industry from the Australian music industry. The only thing resembling an Australian music industry was AD/DC and Silverchair. INXS not only didn't have a large record for over a decade, but shortly after 'Elegantly Wasted' tanked, so did Hutch...and that was the end of that.

AC/DC doesn't [or at least didn't] funnel a whole lot of their proceeds back to the local industry [not like 'Men at Work', 'Midnight Oil', 'INXS', or even 'The Saints', 'Johnny Diesel and the Injectors', 'Jimmy Barnes'.

 

'Baby Animal's never really did all that well outside of Oz...even the broad ended up spending most of her time in the states with that masterbatory guitar player from 'Extreme' [actually, Nuno was a really good guitar player when he was just doing clubs around town...when Extreme went national, he seemed to feel the spiritual need for Steve Vai like 'pyrotechnics' that were just boring as a motherfucker...but I digress].

 

I don't know what Silverchair could really have done for the Australian industry...it was 3/4's in the shitter when they went global...so I don't know if you can really blame them that much [c'mon...they're just kids for gawd sake].

Not soon after, 301 was sold to the asshole from SAE, and it's been downhill ever since.

 

If you'd like a list of the 'ministers' behind the 'rape and stabbing' of the Australian music industry, I'll find them and e-mail them to you. Funny...some asshole sales pinhead that lives a 1/2 hour south of Boston, MA seems to have been more politically involved in your music industry than you? No wonder the vast majority of my letters received a 'snotty reply' [and in a couple of cases, that's the polite version].

 

My friend, do *not* blame the accountants and lawyers for the death of your country's music industry. It's your own damn fault. That every participant in the Australian music industry wasn't storming the halls on Canberra is shameful...you made your bed, now lie in it, or change it...but pissing and moaning about it is *not* an option.

 

-----

 

Fletcher

Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com

[Curve Dominant]

DAMMMNNNN!!!

 

Don't phuck wit Phletch.

[alphajerk]

deftones were around long before limp bisquick. and before them was helmet. but that really has nothing to do with this thread. even limp bisquick has a slew of dancers in syncopation in their video now.

 

music is just a load of shit right now. souless as the people who put it out and souless as the people who buy it. consumers have become homogenized. nobody thinks on their own. its a sick sick sick world. maybe the apocolypse IS at the end of this year.

[Guest]

Yes Fletch Thats the same story all the record company people foist on us, Ive no doubt as to where you got that opinion but it started well before parallel importing came into being, which incidentally hasnt had as much effect as they would have you believe. We still pay $29.95 for a new release as before, its just that theres a backlog of old stuff marked down to saturate an already saturated market. Now you can buy the 100 top hits of the 60s 70s and 80s for $99.95 and if youre quick well throw in the 90s as well with the steak knives.

 

We did have a thriving industry with the artists you didnt mention like Cold Chisel, Misex, Mondo Rock, Goanna, Moving Pictures plus the Oils and Diesel etc

who were all selling 200K 300K locally and who only dabbled in the OS game by sending the odd album to Bob to mix, or bringing Billy Payne over to produce. Both Sydney and Melbourne supported 3 or 4 well equipped studios plus the odd country setup like the Music Farm and Fast Forward.

 

It was these artists sales and performance profits that was fueling the industry not the record company profits you mentioned who were too busy sending their 10%+ back to the US motherships.

 

Oz has never had huge international success with its artists, unlike Canada and Ireland, and if you compare the broadcasting rules and regulations of Canada and OZ you may find a few of the reasons spelled out in the local airplay percentages and criteria. Yes Government did have a roll to play in all that but it has never been in the record companys interest to have local airplay competing with their marketing of Madonna.

 

The rot really set in during the late eighties when the record companies got the glint of gold in their eyes and saw the kinda money that Men at Work, AC/DC and LRB had generated and it soon became the criteria for future artists.

 

Suddenly the buzz was crack it overseas and well make some real money to support the local industry but of course you have to record overseas if you want that US sound or better still why not use a US producer if you want that chart success and shit, if they want a higher fee and more points, fine, cos. who wants to travel for 35 hours to a gig in the middle of nowhere anyway. Its easier for us to fly to them than to drag them over here.

 

BTW in the meanwhile John Farhnam was still selling enough locally to make himself a millionaire. The majors profits were now going out of the country and into the hands of US studios and producers and naturally the local studios started to close starting with Rhinoceros, closely followed by AAV etc etc until the ultimate demise of 301 that you mentioned. Incidentally that asshole from SAE sunk $8 mil back in and rebuilt and reequipped it. Where did our great indigenous saviors Yothu Yindi record their latest offering? Ireland and Europe I think. As the belt tightened around the local industry the major companies retained their expensive offices, with their high 200K salaries and expense accounts, some of which Im sure has blown your way. Meanwhile the US artists were still getting a much higher royalty percentage than even you in the US were paying them.

 

Thats when the accountants were brought in to maintain the steady 10%+ outflow. A&R decisions were being made by cold hearted accountants who really didnt give a fuck about local product so long as they were seen to be spending money remarketing Janet Jackson over and over again.

I produced a local artist on an indigenous arts council grant combined with a small publishing advance and we got signed to a major. We won the ARIA for that album yet the major immediately sent him to the US for his next album with a budget 16 times what Id spent. Naturally a few of the majors reps had to travel to the US to make sure he was being looked after. Mind you being looked after meant giving away 50% of the songwriting credits in cowrites and spending $2,500 per day in a few of your more established recording studios, oh and a few musos got to taste the pie also. I dont see any Government policies here.

 

Fortunately our national public broadcaster in the form of Radio JJJ has revived our industry to some extent by going out and finding, they call it unearthing, the local artists the major companies couldnt or wouldnt find and giving them the airplay necessary to establish themselves. Meanwhile a couple of guys from Brisbane who had been knocked back by every major struck gold with Savage Garden through an independent label that was about to fold and that money is starting to filter back into the industry. They even made on offer for the Music Farm. New entrepreneurs are building new studios and creating new labels, I learnt the other day that Gyan is back and still trying to extricate herself from a major legal battle with a US major. Meantime the majors are still hung up on remarketing INXS, Kylie and Barnsey just like theyve been doing with Janet. You saw the openning of the Olympics??

 

Fletch, I take all your points and they are well said and Im impressed and flattered by your knowledge of the OZ music industry but we did protest and jump up and down in and out of Canberra. Huge outdoor concert protests were held and major artists were seen consistently on the media protesting the Government policy but were dealing with a globalisation government. The same minister is currently fucking our telecommunications industry and our public broadcaster. And you are right, it is due in some respect to a series of ministers that have screwed us all along .but in the long run it is the domination of US majors combined with the high living accountants, lawyers and A&R that has really done the long term damage.

 

We will survive and carry on to better things and it wont be because of the majors, parallel imports, OS producers, or even Government Policies, more the pigheadedness of the little aussie battler.

 

Cheers

John http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Anderton]

Fascinating exchange. I learned a lot from both posts...the bottom line to me seems that there's no one answer things are messed up, but rather, a confluence of factors that taken together, spell disaster.

 

I could go on about the piracy/offshore production thing but maybe that's another thread...

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by johnsay@lis.net.au:

BTW in the meanwhile John Farhnam was still selling enough locally to make himself a millionaire. The majors profits were now going out of the country and into the hands of US studios and producers and naturally the local studios started to close starting with Rhinoceros, closely followed by AAV etc etc until the ultimate demise of 301 that you mentioned. Incidentally that asshole from SAE sunk $8 mil back in and rebuilt and reequipped it.

 

I dunno about that...the first time I met David Nichols [no relation...equally talented] was in "Benny's", when "Benny's" was still happening. He had a beer too many, and I was hanging with a couple folk he wanted to hang with...'cept there tweren't no room at the table. He said something about having the #1 record in the US at the time, without flinching I said "yeah, everytime Clearmountain mixes my tracks they go to number one too...sit at the bar ya hack"

 

Rhinocerous went down for no other reason than location. The Aussie version of the CIA moved into the same building...they couldn't have the 'long haired musician types' floating around...it wasn't good for their business...it took INXS over 3 years [that I know of] to liquidate the assets, and from what I understand, the lions share after the desk were dispersed between band members.

 

The studio was purchased with the "post-KICK" windfall, which they were unable to sustain. Not necessarily the industry's fault...they never grew as a band. I know I got damn tired of hearing the same groove and instrumentation over and over and over...without the level of songwriting that 'Listen Like Thieves and Kick' produced...lets face it; 'Elegantly wasted' was just the same 'rehashed crap'. They didn't need a studio, nor did the city require another facility at that level...and if it did, it had 'Fantasy'.

 

The industry was on the downslide as the Aussie acts weren't bringing in the same 'foreign sales reveneue'. There's nothing that pays like 'global sucess'. Farnham does indeed move enough product locally to make him a millionaire [as do Barnes, Diesel, Baby Animals, etc.], but that doesn't add to the complete economy.

 

It does bubkus [Polish word, means nothing...sorry, I'm on a 'multi-cultural bent' at the moment work with me] for 'local managment', 'local travel agencies', 'local investments by those who've benefitted from International sucess', as in "world tours", 'merchandising', 'management fees derived from cross marketing deals', yada, yada, yada, yada. There are a million and a half ways for people to make money in this industry...unfortunately, it all starts with the 'record companies' fronting the money to develop artists.

 

Granted, worldwide, there is a complete and total lack of dedication toward 'artist development'. Zero argument there. But, with the paralell import legislation, while it didn't do shit for what you pay for product, it did effect the local record company's earnings, and they had to affect a more 'fiscally conservative position'. It has indeed made a substantial difference.

 

301 was sold to the putz from SAE because it couldn't stand on it's own two feet. I know, I'm the guy that did several of the 'evaluations'. I'm also the guy that ended up with 2 of the 3 Neve 8078's that once lived in 301. Perry Margoloff of 'PIE Studios' in Glen Cove, NY ended up with the 3rd. Of the other two, one is the desk in the barn at Longview Farm in N. Brookfield, MA [i'll be sitting behind it in a couple weeks], the last is the left half of the monster at Oceanway, Nashville.

 

The final owners of 301 would have preferred to chew glass, stick their hand in a food processor, or damn near any other potential form of disfigurement than sell to that cretin [which is not intended as an insult to the residents of the island of Crete].

 

The asshole sunk $8 million [which is maybe $5 million in real money...but anyway you look at it, it's more than I make in a week], because he was going to build a 'vanity facility'. He had a personal beef with a principle of 301, and wanted to exact a bit of revenge. Or at least that's the way it was perceived by alot of the people I know there...some of whom work for the asshole [and did prior to the 301 "aquisition", many of whom are purely sideline observers.

 

There are a plethora of other problems experienced by the industry in OZ. I didn't just end up with the 8078's from 301...I picked up a dozen other Neve desks over the years as well, from 32 input film desks with 1083's, to enough 8014's to insure a constant supply of 1066/1073/1084 modules for the independant engineers/home hobbiest here in the US...not to mention the truck load of various '51' series/Melbourn/BCM-10's that were sold by the ABC.

 

That doesn't necessarily sound like a thriving industry to me. Had it been a thriving industry, those pieces would have been absorbed rather than exported. Yes, there was collusion to attempt to insure that every SSL left the country, but even that [obviously] didn't work all that well.

 

Even 'Andy Shrape' bailed out...sold his 'practice' to Mick Wordley...who seems to be doing quite a good job of propping up and assisting the florishing home studio market, the new GST does indeed help as it applies to "import goods" as well as 'domestically' obtained goods.

 

One last hardware note...as an industry, you guys really need to take a deep breath and support your local vendors. I get a couple of e-mails a week regarding 'gray marketing' product [which we don't do...if you're in the US, and happen to want to buy a piece of equipment that can also be purchased 'down under' fine...but, as a general rule we don't ship to any country where we know there is an existing agent for the product line].

 

It messes with local dealers' who in the long run, will be of better service to both the user, as well as the general industry than the few dollars a clever 'savvy shopper' may save by purchasing equipment across an ocean, at 'discount prices' with zero technical/user support.

 

Things like that also 'weaken' the industry. Things like that are also caused by heavy government taxation...which is starting to get better.

 

Import tarriffs are down, the GST is more than making up for that. I believe you'll see other 'goods related' tax reductions...as a country, probably not personally...but it will reflect in the end selling price as the "internet" decocratizes global sales and purchase ability.

 

I think you'll find that globally, the "independent industry will grow on the smaller level, starve at the mid-level [though the 'hot' smaller level facilities will continue to grow into 'mid-level' facilities...and under 1% of those will grow into 'larger facilities'], and like always, shake out 80+% at the upper level during the course of a decade.

 

That is unfortunately the way this industry has worked in the past, and will continue to work in the future. The Tascams, Mackies, alesiss, MOTU's etc. have served to widen the lowest rung of the ladder, they have in many ways 'democratized audio', they have also enabled soooo much crap to be produced that it's absolutely impossible for any record company, anywhere, to sift through that much shit.

 

Hey bro, I'm a sales weasel...I get half a dozen 'demo's sent to me a week...like we could do something with them [some of them are excellent...but alot of them suuuuuuck]. The pipeline is full, there is only 'X' amount of room.

 

VH-1/MTV/BET/Nickelodeon/etc. will set new trends from time to time [yeah, Nickelodeon...who do you think made the 'Baha-Men' a household word? In my house, it was Nickelodeon.], and the record guys will scramble to fill those needs. Film soundtrak compilations account for a *huge* proportion of records sold...so basicly, if you're not tied into some *huge* vehicle for song promotion [like a $100M movie]...fuggedaboudit.

 

I read an article in Billboard a year or two ago...the major US radio chains [there are only a handful of firms that control the lions share of FM radio stations...but nobody seems to wanna bitch about that, just the record labels] have finally figured out how to 'legalize' payola. If you have the money, you can buy 'infomercials'...oh, about 4-5 minutes in length. Get the picture.

 

So...we get down to MP-3's and the distribution of unknown artists on an inferior sounding distribution format. Gee, what a thrill that is. How do I promote this? Oh...ya mean if I get one of those 'spam shovels', and find everyone that has gone anywhere near a "usenet music related group", I can spam them about how cool my music is...cool!! Not.

 

There will always be a need to create art, cave drawings have proven this. There will always be large scale distribution of art, that will often displease alot of the art community, but tickle the 'audienece to be entertained' to the bone. You think "N'sync" started this shit? 'Pssst...before there was an N'sync, there was a New Kids On The Block, and before them New Edition, and before them The Osmonds and before them The Jacksons and before them Pat Boone...how far back do you wanna go?

 

The fact of the matter is there was a brief period of time, almost starting with 'Bill Haley' and ending when 'Jefferson Airplane changed to 'Jefferson Starship'...a brief hiccup caused by Malcolm Mclaren that allowed the Sex Pistols, Ramones, Blondie, Talking Heads, Television, etc [funny...there are boomers, and there are 'Gen-X'ers...I'm from the group somewhere in the middle, we were at the end of the boomers, but before the 'Gen-X'ers...but if you say 'Blank Generation', most of the other people my age will look at you like you're on drugs...funny how few people actually embraced late '70's punk culture...but will swear to you they were punks].

 

Where does it end? It doesn't. The key here is to get down to persuing our 'art'...and to stop fucking whining already.

 

There...get more verbose than that shit...I dare ya. Though, please, let me say you made some *excellent* points about the 'rehashing' of 'old crap'. But frankly, there will be no letting go of the old until they get out of the way. I am loving how kids have found 'rap/electronica/etc' to piss off their parents.

 

My dad used to walk into my room when I was a kid and scream at me to "turn that shit down" [Rolling Stones, Allman Bros., etc.]...now the same kids I grew up with are going into their kids rooms and screaming at them to 'turn that shit down'...'cept now it's 'Master P'...or 'the Chemical Brothers', and every now and again someone like Beck slips under the radar...someone who can make cool music that's also acceptable to the masses...

 

We'll be OK...but things are going to change, and like always, there will be greater quantity of talented artists that will survive but not wildly prosper...and a group of wannabee mainly talentless yet driven individuals that will scream about how unfair shit is. Yep, it's unfair. Now move on and 'TCB'.

 

-----

 

Fletcher

Mercenary Audio http://www.mercenary.com

[Guest]

As has been said before - Fletch - you are the best!! hey Benny's was a place wasn't it??

 

I think we here in OZ should start being real about what we can and can't support. Huge studios with long long SSL and Neves are just out of our range yet not having them should not be an obstacle to making good music. If we keep our costs within the context of our returns (gold is 35,000 sales and Platinium is 85,000) there is no reason why we can't maintain a viable local industry.

 

Most of our big extravagant studios are created by people with more money than sense like the Rhino story you related. The other two big studios Paradise and Rich were both setup by people with Daddies money and you are quite correct about why Tom did over 301 - he admitted it to me a few weeks ago.

 

BTW We are buying all our gear from the local distibutors and wouldn't think of doing it any other way.

 

cheers

john

[batman forgot his cape]

Hey Craig....

Pure..RAP Poetry........

.."the bottom line to me seems that there's no one answer... things are messed up, but rather,.. a confluence of factors.. that taken

together, spell...... disaster!..."

Eminem....eat your heart out!!.....

[Anderton]

>> Pure..RAP Poetry........

.."the bottom line to me seems that there's no one answer... things are messed up, but rather,.. a confluence of factors.. that taken

together, spell...... disaster!..." <<

 

LOL!!! Hey, I've GOT to put a song together around that!!! I'd sure like some of whatever you're taking

[alphajerk]

sounds like KRS-one.

[Curve Dominant]

>>The key here is to get down to persuing our 'art'...and to stop fucking whining already.

There...get more verbose than that shit...I dare ya.<<

 

A Stiff Records button circa 1979: "Fuck Art...Let's Dance"

 

The issue that keeps echoing through my brain as I follow this thread is the inherent contradiction of artistic expectation versus commercial appeal. Being from Philly, I always took for granted the "dance" or "groove" ingredient of music in general and pop music in particular. Innovative art, in any medium, can still have a point of reference from which the audience can get its bearings - a sort of "vanishing point." With rock and roll, the vanishing point is the 4/4 time signature. Return To Forever played some difficult-sounding music in some impossible-sounding time signatures, but it didn't translate into "art" because it wasn't difficult to listen to; in fact it sounded boring. "Fight The Power" by Public Enemy, on the other hand, was technically un-musicianly (a sort of Warhol-like collage gorgeously assembled by Hank Shockley), yet it was challenging art because of its strong culturally political content and purpose. It was art in its truest sense, and sold amazingly well. Danceable 4/4 grooves are sometimes viewed with condescension by musicians, because they seem "obvious." But what is obvious is how difficult it is to create an artistic statement within that "percieved" limitation. It is also obvious that to succeed in doing so brings rewards in the extreme, both artistically, financially, and critically. It is the attitude of the artist in approaching the 4/4 "dance" groove that is the key determination: is it something that one must "sell-out to in order to become commercially viable," or is it the essence of the artform itself, as oil paints and canvas (like beats and basslines) are the essence of a painting?

 

Ever since pre-historic civilization, songs were sung AND danced-to simultaneously, whether they be fertility dances, war-cries, prayers, or whatever. The onset of recorded music created oppurtunities for musicians to use music as an artistic medium (Kansas), rather than the traditional folk-dance approach of using art and commentary as a musical medium (U2). The current proliferation of boy-bands and Britneys is not a carrion-call for plastic throw-away commercial gloss - on the contrary. The producers behind these acts have simply tapped into an undeveloped aspect of music: stuff one can dance and sing to. When the day comes that the "artistes" and poets who want to be musical recognize, respect, and appreciate the need to embrace the vanishing point of groove as the clay that makes the sculpture visible, we will not need to bitch about lack of artistry in pop music; Artistry will abound to the point of eclipsing the gloss, and the audiences will luv us for it, and throw money at us. Not that money is the point - art is the point, and groove is the line and plane. But the money would be nice, yo? Better the artists get the green than some fat grubbing pimp like Lou Perelman.

 

Nuff said. Peace Peeps.

[alphajerk]

"Return To Forever played some difficult-sounding music in some impossible-sounding time signatures, but it didn't translate into "art" because it wasn't difficult to listen to; in fact it sounded boring. "Fight The Power" by Public Enemy, on the other hand, was technically un-musicianly (a sort of Warhol-like collage gorgeously assembled by Hank Shockley), yet it was challenging art because of its strong culturally political content and purpose. It was art in its truest sense, and sold amazingly well. "

 

PURE FODDER!

 

dancing has nothing to do with something being art or not. and PE is no more artistic that Return to Forever. music isnt only made for people to dance to. sometimes its made to exorcize brain cells or simply expound on intricacies. not to mention this has nothing to do with A&R dept's. boy bands are a formula, plain and simple, there is no art to that.

 

just the word ART can mean completely different things to people. i have seen paintings that i would NEVER consider art but they are hanging in major fucking galleries so SOMEBODY obvoiusly thinks so. PE sold well because it was about rebellion. plain and simple. is it art? sure, why not. but no more than Return to Forvever is art. selling well does not make something art. it makes it part of pop culture which andy glamourized as pop art but only if it becomes iconic. the beatles are iconic, the backstreet boys are just flash in the pans on time. madonna is iconic, brittany spears is just a flavor of the month.

 

who said somewhere here or something i read recently that 4/4 is the rhythm of the day and 3/4 is the rhythm as you sleep.

[Curve Dominant]

alpha misses the big picture - again. When you wake up sober, re-read that post.

[alphajerk]

okay curve, expand on what i misunderstood. doesnt really matter, you made a good point. i was just merely stating the fact that art has so many different meanings that no one person can define it.

 

[This message has been edited by alphajerk (edited 12-10-2000).]

[Curve Dominant]

>>okay curve, expand on what i misunderstood.<<

 

OK alpha, since you've come to your senses, I'll school ya.

 

>>music isnt only made for people to dance to. sometimes its made to exorcize brain cells or simply expound on intricacies. not to mention this has nothing to do with A&R dept's. boy bands are a formula, plain and simple, there is no art to that.<<

 

This has EVERYTHING to do with A&R departments. It's rock & roll we're talking about, right? F*ck the sub-headings (r&b, hiphop, punk, funk, thrash, house, teeny-bop...it's all R&R to the peeps at large). It's the art of moving bodies, hearts and minds. Some artists start by moving your pelvis and then move on to the heart & mind, some start from the heart, some get you on some subconscience level. Regardless, rock & roll was ALWAYS about movement of some kind, in time, to a beat & a rhyme. Kinetic, sexual, physical, emotional - these are the responses rock & roll solicits from its audience, and the interplay between the performance of the music and these responses is the nature of the art. In otherwords, that intense feeling you get at a good concert - THAT IS THE ART.

 

>>music isnt only made for people to dance to.<<

 

Good observation. I have noticed this, too. A girl of mine played viola for the Philadelphia Orchestra, and I never got up and danced when they played Vivaldi at the Academy Of Music. Doesn't mean I didn't dig it - it was a sublime experience. But you are not Vivaldi, and neither am I, so let's get back to the subject of A&R dept's of labels. They are looking to sign acts to contracts that will specify that an artist who makes folks move will have their work copied and distributed by that A&R person's label. That is art that sells. If it doesn't sell, it doesn't mean it's not art. But if it doesn't rock, if it doesn't move peeps, it won't sell, and the A&R folks will pass on it. That might not seem fair to fans of Return To Forever, but that's life.

[Anderton]

>>madonna is iconic, brittany spears is just a flavor of the month.<<

 

If you had written this in the early 80s, you would have said "Joni Mitchell is iconic, Madonna is just a flavor of the month."

 

Perspective...

[Anderton]

>>madonna is iconic, brittany spears is just a flavor of the month.<<

 

If you had written this in the early 80s, you would have said "Joni Mitchell is iconic, Madonna is just a flavor of the month."

 

Perspective...

[Curve Dominant]

Furthermore, alphajerk, regarding the boybands & britneys. As a musical purist, you may not appreciate the fact that Britney's voice is so weak that she is forced to lip-sync at her concerts, or that she doesn't compose the stuff she performs. But I will bet you $Mil that if she did in the privacy of your crib what she does onstage, you would not be able to muster the discipline to kick her out of your crib. You'd have a woody like a truck-axel, and your musical sensibilities would go "See ya! Wouldn't wanna be ya!" THAT is her "art." Is it art? I quote the alphamiester: "art has so many different meanings that no one person can define it." True, Brutha. Might I venture that, no disrespect, but if your wife were hypothetically treated to the same treatment by Justin Timberlake as you were by Britney, a similiar understanding of the "art" would be reached.

 

Just a little bit of perspective; no dogma intended. This is a discussion, not a rumble.

 

That was good, Craig.

[Lee Flier]

Heck, I STILL think Madonna is the flavor of the month. She just manages to make herself into a different flavor every month... big deal.

 

And I've never been much of a Joni Mitchell fan but you'll never convince me that either Madonna OR Britney has Joni Mitchell's talent...

 

--Lee

[Curve Dominant]

Hey Lee, did you ever listen to Joni's "Hejira?" That's a deep record. Joni traveled across the country & back and wrote songs about her experiences, sorta like Jack Kerouac's "On The Road" set to music, with Jaco Pastorious on bass & some other dope musicians. This is a classic release, and since my Groove Factory thread died, I'll just plug classic releases on the various threads instead. A kind of floating Groove Factory thread across threads that can sink into yer headz for maximum effectz.

[alphajerk]

i only comment about madonna because she is STILL around [and while i am not a fan of her music, i applaude her for changing with the times, constantly growing instead of doing the same ole thang not to mention her business sense. things that brittany will never have]. madonna is no different than david bowie. he is a bit iconic as well. so is mick and the stones, lou reed, et al.

 

okay curve, i get where you are coming from with your statement now. BUT its just the shortsightedness of the music industry to ONLY rely on bootygroovin music. ALSO, how do you explain the lesser known VERY BOOTY MOVING artists like the Meters lack of popularity? they kick about EVERYBODY off the stage.

 

and curve, i have always said that brittany missed her calling as a porn star, not a "pop star". i dont give a rats ass about her music but i sometimes dont change the channel to see if her boob dont pop out http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif, usually on MUTE though.

 

but all this brings up my whole speil about labels being left to their own devices wouldnt know their head from their ass which is why music is in a stale formula right now. Nirvana was the last inspiring rock band but it wasnt the labels who made them, they made the labels. i got too much work to go deep into this right now, maybe later...

[Anderton]

>>And I've never been much of a Joni Mitchell fan but you'll never convince me that either Madonna OR Britney has Joni Mitchell's talent...<<

 

I saw Joni Mitchell a lot in her very, very early days. What impressed me most was her guitar playing, unorthodox tunings and all. I don't think she's ever gotten enough credit for that. She was one of those artists who needed only a voice and guitar to keep an audience rapt -- but I think 70% of it was her guitar playing. At the time, without that, she was just another very good singer/songwriter with a very good voice. Throw in the guitar, and you had something unique.

[Lee Flier]

Yeah Craig I agree. I have a lot of respect for Joni and I think her guitar playing's aces. I'm just not that into her songs or her voice... it's all a little too clever for my taste. http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

 

alpha: yeah everybody says how they respect Madonna for her "marketing savvy" even if they don't like her music. I think that's bullshit, I don't respect anyone for marketing ability if what they're marketing is shit. I think Madonna has been a terrible role model for women too, though the fact that she is something of a cultural icon probably says more bad about the culture than it does about her.

 

--Lee

 

[This message has been edited by Lee Flier (edited 12-11-2000).]

[alphajerk]

lee,

 

if you can sell ice to an eskimo, then you are a good business person. period. now you are just player hating. you think most of whats being sold right now we NEED? i personally cant stand her music, never could. madonna is a role model for future business women, not future musicians.

[Anderton]

I think "Open Your Heart" is a great cut.

 

What I respect is that Madonna didn't start off with great raw materials. Her voice has a limited range, she can't dance, etc. But she had a dream and through sheer persistence and working her butt off, she got where she is.

 

And musically, she's smart enough to choose great collaborators (Patrick Leonard, Shep Pettibone, William Orbit, etc.) and get out of their way. All of the interviews I've read with these people have nothing but praise for her attitude in the studio, her encouragement of them, and her total lack of any prima donna attitude. Gotta respect that too.

 

I was the one who, years ago, suggested to EQ that we put Madonna on the cover. Well, she declined, but we got Shep Pettibone and he was a very interesting interview.

 

She's also not afraid to try new things, she takes chances with her career instead of getting into a rut. I don't know if I'd like her as a person, but over the years she has won me over from an artistic standpoint. I can completely understand someone disagreeing me -- there are a lot of negative aspects to her, just look at the "Blond Ambition" movie. But what makes me respect her is that she left that stuff in her own movie. Even with complete artistic control, she didn't turn it into a puff piece. Good for her.

[batman forgot his cape]

Shep Pettibone???....

...Hung like the ceiling of an italian delicatessen!!!!!

[Guest]

great line batman http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gifhttp://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif