Mixing with digital and analog

[JES]

Hi Craig,

 

I'm a longtime fan of your work and really glad to see you here instead of AOL (since I'm not a subscriber there).

 

I'm thinking about making the jump to a digital mixer, but my fear is of latency. I have a MOTU 2408 which also works as a digital patchbay -- so I'd actually have enough analog I/O. My question -- and no store in my area has this set up for me to try it out for real -- is what happens when I want to use a nice analog compressor or quirky old effect on something I've already recorded? Will there be latency? How will I compensate?

 

Reviewers always suggest keeping the compressors in the analog domain, but I never see an explanation of the logistics of this (and some digital mixers, like the now-more-affordable Spirit Digital 328, have only a couple compressor anyway). Usually, the answer I get from people is "once it's digital you want to keep it digital." Well, what if I don't?

 

Your thoughts? Have you done this successfully? Anyone else?

 

Thanks much.

 

--JES

[Pro Jules]

I have a Pro Tools rig and even with that if I bus out to outboard gear and back in there will be a slight delay... all you do is drag it forward a bit and hey presto.

I belive if you can present the most organised sound to the converters in the first place that's the best route, having said that I DO want to get a little more into running stuff out and back in again in future.

The word from old hands at this method say the 'sweetening' benefit of the outboard stuff far outweighs any worries of , shock horror, a second ad/da conversion. So don't sweat it!

If you dropped some serious cash on an Apogee PSX100 those little trips in & out wouldn't ever be a a real concern as the audio would sound SO good it wouldn't matter!

 

Over to Craig, the day starts earlier here in London!

MORNING!

http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif

Jules

[JES]

Thanks Jules for your kind reply.

 

Glad to hear someone else is doing it and not worrying about the horror of an extra A/D conversion. Your method sounds fine, but it seems like that means if I'm working with a digital mixer, I've got to do the mixing after applying the processing, rather than doing it on the fly -- ie processing some tracks analog and running them into the digital mixer and mixing those tracks with digital tracks down to a 2-track master. I was hoping there'd be a way to do the effecting and mixdown at the same time in a digital mixer -- like in an analog mixer. Craig? Others using digital mixers?

 

Thanks

 

--JES

[Anderton]

Originally posted by JES:

Glad to hear someone else is doing it and not worrying about the horror of an extra A/D conversion. Your method sounds fine, but it seems like that means if I'm working with a digital mixer, I've got to do the mixing after applying the processing, rather than doing it on the fly -- ie processing some tracks analog and running them into the digital mixer and mixing those tracks with digital tracks down to a 2-track master. I was hoping there'd be a way to do the effecting and mixdown at the same time in a digital mixer -- like in an analog mixer. Craig? Others using digital mixers?

 

I'm using the Panasonic DA7, which has about 2.5 ms of delay. If you go out through a bus and come back in again, there's more delay due to the conversions.

 

However, one cool DA7 feature is that each channel as a 300 or so ms delay option. So if you have some really labyrinthine routings going on that cross the line between digital and analog, you can simply choose a default delay for ALL channels, like 10ms. Then if one is behind by 10 ms, just remove the delay, and it falls into place.

 

Other options include patching the analog effect to an analog input of the mixer. Another possibility is that when you're dealing with latencies of 2-3 ms, that's not a lot providing you're not mixing the signal with a non-delayed version of the signal (e.g., putting the compressor in parallel with a channel that is not being routed through a bus, then back in again). In some cases you can probably just ignore it.

 

Another option is if you have something like an ADAT, you can delay all tracks by an equal amount except for the one feeding the channel with the analog effect. This way there's no apparent latency when you're mixing. Ditto with hard disk -- just advance the track you expect to be delayed.

 

I hope this answers your question, but if not, let me know and I'll get back with more.

[Anderton]

One thing I forgot to mention -- one of my fvorite effects is patching an analog vocoder into the signal path, where two aux buses feed the two inputs, and the output gets brought back into the mixer. In this case, the signal is so different compared to the original that even with a few ms of delay, there are no comb filtering or related problems. So not all effects are necessarily problematic.

[JES]

Craig wrote:

 

Other options include patching the analog effect to an analog input of the mixer.

 

-------

 

I reply:

 

Thanks Craig. This is very helpful. One last question. Let's say I'm compressing a bass. I'll route the "clean" sound to the aux or some other available output, then through the compressor, and back through an extra input. I'd mute the original in mix -- would the analog input method take care of latency issues relative to the other tracks, or am I still dealing with a couple milliseconds?

 

One again, I really enjoy reading your stuff.

 

JES

[Anderton]

Originally posted by JES:

One last question. Let's say I'm compressing a bass. I'll route the "clean" sound to the aux or some other available output, then through the compressor, and back through an extra input. I'd mute the original in mix -- would the analog input method take care of latency issues relative to the other tracks, or am I still dealing with a couple milliseconds?

 

JES

 

Why not just use the insert points on the channel that's carrying the compressor? At least in the DA7, the inserts on the analog channels are analog, so there is no latency issue.

[JES]

Craig writes:

 

Why not just use the insert points on the channel that's carrying the compressor? At least in the DA7, the inserts on the analog channels are analog, so there is no latency issue.

--------

I reply:

 

If this is true, that makes a big difference! I was under the (mistaken?) impression that the insert points only worked during intial tracking, and that during mixdown (ie, because there's no D/A conversion in the insert) I'd have to find another way out of the mixer besides the insert point. Have you done this with a Panasonic on mixdown of prerecorded tracks? I haven't used or played with a Panasonic digital board.

 

Thanks again!

 

--JES

[Anderton]

Originally posted by JES:

Craig writes:

 

Why not just use the insert points on the channel that's carrying the compressor? --------

I reply:

 

If this is true, that makes a big difference! I was under the (mistaken?) impression that the insert points only worked during intial tracking, and that during mixdown (ie, because there's no D/A conversion in the insert) I'd have to find another way out of the mixer besides the insert point. Have you done this with a Panasonic on mixdown of prerecorded tracks? I haven't used or played with a Panasonic digital board.

 

Thanks again!

 

--JES

 

In the immortal words of Homer J. Simpson: "Doh!" I missed the mixing-only reference. No, inserts won't do you any good on mixdown, unless you're feeding analog outs into your digital mixer.

 

I think you're back to using the analog aux out and returns, and individual channel delays to tune out timing differences. Sorry for any confusion.

[JES]

Craig writes:

 

In the immortal words of Homer J. Simpson: "Doh!" I missed the mixing-only reference. No, inserts won't do you any good on mixdown, unless you're feeding analog outs into your digital mixer.

I think you're back to using the analog aux out and returns, and individual channel delays to tune out timing differences. Sorry for any confusion.

 

----------

 

I reply:

 

Thanks a ton, Craig. This clears up a lot -- no need to apologize for the confusion -- it was a ray of hope for a moment!

 

Best,

--JES

[Mark Kluth]

I also use and totally love my RAMSA DA7. The lack of inserts on mixdown is an issue that bothers only those who still use analog mixers and whose minds are stuck in the old analog paradigm of a typical mixdown.

 

One of the benefits of using a digital mixer such as the DA7 is the repeatability: you finish a mix and save the scene/mix. Later, if the client needs incremental changes, you simply load the scene/mix and pick up right back where you left off. In order for this to truly work, you would also have to be able to perfectly re-create all your outboard fx unit's settings and re-do your complicated patchbay configuration. Most units will have a patch you can recall; others may not be so simple.

 

There is an easy way around this: you simply print all fx and other outboard-related activities to tape before your mixdown. Do all your compressing and sweetening to whatever tracks you want and print them. Then, when it comes time to mix, you already have everything processed the way that you need.

 

This makes your mix truly repeatable and isn't that why you bought a digital mixer to begin with?

[Anderton]

Originally posted by mkluth@mkluth.com:

One of the benefits of using a digital mixer such as the DA7 is the repeatability: you finish a mix and save the scene/mix. Later, if the client needs incremental changes, you simply load the scene/mix and pick up right back where you left off. In order for this to truly work, you would also have to be able to perfectly re-create all your outboard fx unit's settings and re-do your complicated patchbay configuration. Most units will have a patch you can recall; others may not be so simple.

 

There is an easy way around this: you simply print all fx and other outboard-related activities to tape before your mixdown. Do all your compressing and sweetening to whatever tracks you want and print them. Then, when it comes time to mix, you already have everything processed the way that you need.

 

Excellent point. Most of my tracks come from hard disk, which have been processed with plug-ins anyway. Having dynamics and GREAT-sounding equalization on the DA7 at least lets me postpone those decisions until the mix anyway.

 

I never had a problem with printing with FX because I started on 4-track. There was so much premixing that printing with FX was a necessity. At least these days with plug-ins, you can save a backup of the original track if you want to play it safe.

 

BTW do you have the V2.0 software for the DA7? It facilitates doing some of the cool FX I demoed on my digital mixing seminar tour last year, like the killer through-zero flanging effect.

[Mark Kluth]

Craig

 

It is truly an honor to converse with you; I still have my first edition copy of "Home Recording for Musicians" that I bought through Keyboard magazine WAY back when they were still called Contemporary Keyboard.

 

I'm afraid my DA7 still runs on v1.02. I'm one of those types who waits for all the rest of the "guinea pigs" to try out new gear and new OS's to weed out the bugs before I commit to anything new. It is my opinion that most manufacturers these days rush most products to market too quickly (to beat the other guys) and in the process deliver buggy products- essentially leaving it to the end users to beta test for them.

 

But I read on www.da7.com that most users seem happy with the new OS, so I'll do the update soon. I did see your seminar last year and I do dig the manual flange effect. Now that is one that you ABSOLUTELY cannot do on an analog board! I tried the 60hz tone - kick drum trick you showed with less success; I guess I need more practice as I just couldn't get it to sound natural. Your demos of the other functions were also very helpful- particularly concerning the expander.

 

All in all, I wouldn't part with my DA7 for ANY analog board. The bang-for-the-buck ratio makes it one of the best values out there, period (especially if you can get one bundled w/meter bridge and MAX).

 

If any of you reading this have any questions about the DA7, I invite you to take a look at www.da7.com, there is a message board there (just like this one) devoted to people's questions about digital mixers and recorders and many other topics of concern to DA7 owners and others interested in digital recording.

[Anderton]

>>..I'm afraid my DA7 still runs on v1.02. I'm one of those types who waits for all the rest of the "guinea pigs" to try out new gear and new OS's to weed out the bugs before I commit to anything new. It is my opinion that most manufacturers these days rush most products to market too quickly (to beat the other guys) and in the process deliver buggy products- essentially leaving it to the end users to beta test for them.>>

 

I feel the same way, but after working with version 2.0 on a mixer over in Germany, it seems very stable and the extra functions -- particularly the ability to "mult" an input to several channels -- are welcome. Go for it!