3D Audio Posted August 21, 2000 Share Posted August 21, 2000 What technique do you use when you audition microphones on a singer, for instance? I'm asking because I'm going to be comparing vocal mics on a female singer soon and am wondering what other people's techniques are for evaluating mics. Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Music Mixing and Mastering On a scenic hilltop outside of historic Franklin, Tennessee http://www.3daudioinc.com email:go3daudio@aol.com Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted August 22, 2000 Share Posted August 22, 2000 >>What technique do you use when you audition microphones on a singer, for instance? << I'm sure you're looking for something hipper than this, but I generally do "round-robin" competitions between mic pairs. In other words, set up two mics an equal distance from the instrument, try to match levels, then compare. The winner then takes on the next mic, and the winner of that contest takes on the next mic, and so on. Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. G Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 I think you'll find this much tougher to do than your preamp roundup -- mics are so much more susceptible to level, proximity, etc., differences, whereas with the preamps, at least you were standardizing these hard-to-control variables with one mic. I did a tube mic shootout for Keyboard magazine last year, and it was very difficult to come up with a scientific way to test things. Not only is it hard as a singer to be super-consistent distance, level, and articulation-wise, but how do you choose the setup for the mics? One might sound best 2 inches from that singer, another 8 inches away. Also, the same mic can sound very different depending on the polar pattern selected, etc. Eventually, I decided to take the real-world approach: I set up the mics in a row at exactly the same height, and balanced their level using a test tone. Then I had the singer positioned as identically as possible in front of each mic, at a generic (but consistent) distance (sorry I can't remember how far), singing as consistently as possible. For what it's worth, I had better results with the singer singing along with a pre-recorded vocal song they knew extremely well; the results seemed more consistent than having the singer try to sing along with instrumental tracks each time. Really not too different from the way you probably audition to find the best vocal mic at each session you engineer, just a bit more emphasis on making everything as identical as possible. ------------------ Mitch Gallagher Editor EQ magazine [This message has been edited by EQ_Editor (edited 08-22-2000).] [This message has been edited by EQ_Editor (edited 08-22-2000).] the poster formerly known as MitchG formerly known as EQ_Editor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted August 23, 2000 Share Posted August 23, 2000 Hey Mitch -- thanks for slumming around in the forum! I enjoy hearing the background tidbits on articles and such, it's great to have you sharing your expertise in here. I don't know if Lynn is planning on doing a comparison a la preamp, or just for personal use. But I want to ask both of you what you think of this... Couldn't you just mount a speaker on a mic stand about where someone's mouth would be, and play back a pre-recorded piece of music? Granted you couldn't tell much about breath noise, but this might at least help standardize levels and performances. The fact that no one seems to have done this makes me wonder if there's some glaring flaw in the concept that will make me look like a complete idiot when the next post tells why it's a stupid idea... Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3D Audio Posted August 23, 2000 Author Share Posted August 23, 2000 Originally posted by Anderton: I don't know if Lynn is planning on doing a comparison a la preamp, or just for personal use. But I want to ask both of you what you think of this... Couldn't you just mount a speaker on a mic stand about where someone's mouth would be, and play back a pre-recorded piece of music? Granted you couldn't tell much about breath noise, but this might at least help standardize levels and performances. The fact that no one seems to have done this makes me wonder if there's some glaring flaw in the concept that will make me look like a complete idiot when the next post tells why it's a stupid idea... Craig, It is under consideration. There has been a tremendous amount of interest since I first mentioned it a week ago. Mostly from people who don't have access to mics like C-12s, Manley Golds, 251s, 47s, M49s, and Sheffields, the true vintage superstars. I think most people would like to hear what they are missing when they are using less expensive mics. Or if they can hear any difference at all between them. I realize that not everyone is as blessed as I am to be able to make a phone call and get a 149, C-800G, C-12, C-800G, Manley Gold, Brauner VM-1 and Telefunken 251 in the same room. As far as your suggestion, I don't think it's silly. I would be delighted if it worked. I am suspect that it may introduce as many variables as it eliminates. At least in theory, these are my concerns. 1) What mic and preamp combination do you use to make the original recording? For me, doing something like that would be extremely easy because I have a super source of an absolutely flat, direct to digital recording on the 3D Pre CD. 2) What speaker would I use? What amplifier would drive the speaker? What DAC would drive the amplifier? 3) Would it tell you more than having a person in front of the mic or would it just be more convenient and consistent? There's nothing I would love more than to get rid of the performance variable, although I think getting a consistent enough performance is very do-able, as proven by Marabeth Jordon's excellent consistent performances on the Pre CD. The biggest problem I have with it in theory is that all it might tell you is what "a speaker in front of a mic" will sound like. I've mic'd speakers before and even using high-quality speakers, the results are less than stunning. It just sounds like a mic on a speaker. There are all sorts of early reflections and phase inaccuracies when you get that close to a speaker. I have not, however, tried it with this goal of consistency in mind. Maybe a point-source, dual-concentric speaker like my Tannoys would work. So, all that said, I'm going to try it again with a great reproduction chain in front of several microphones and see if I think it is an alternative. If it works, great! If not, then I'll go back to doing it the way I audition mics every time a singer walks in the door. The truth is that any scientific evaluation of audio gear will only tell you so much about how it will sound. You can't buy gear by looking at the specs. And you can't judge a microphone by hearing it on a recording. I spoke with Russ Long last night and he says he uses the Cole 4038 on vocals a lot and he loves it. But he has to do some serious EQing and compression to get it to sound that way. So in this case, what might be a great vocal mic, but not in its unaltered state, could be overlooked. Those kind of situations are far beyond the scope of any endeavor like this. Again, get the mic in person if you want to hear what you can do with it. With that fact established, I still think it will be a fascinating exercise. AND, what a rush it will be to have all those world-class mics all together in the same room. I'll have to take lots of pictures. Mitch, how about we do a 2001 microphone calendar with 50 of the world's best vocal mics? I'd buy one. I even thought about doing a picture with all the mics and making a desktop "screensaver" out of it. I don't know about anyone else, but I would LOVE that!! (Am I crazy or what?) Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Music Mixing and Mastering On a scenic hilltop outside of historic Franklin, Tennessee http://www.3daudioinc.com email:go3daudio@aol.com Lynn Fuston 3D Audio Inc Home of 3dB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. G Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 The truth is that any scientific evaluation of audio gear will only tell you so much about how it will sound. You can't buy gear by looking at the specs. And you can't judge a microphone by hearing it on a recording. Mitch, how about we do a 2001 microphone calendar with 50 of the world's best vocal mics? I'd buy one. I even thought about doing a picture with all the mics and making a desktop "screensaver" out of it. I don't know about anyone else, but I would LOVE that!! Just to clarify, when I said "scientific," I meant consistent, repeatable, and fair -- not based on specs or measurements. I actually considered doing my roundup using a speaker. While there might be consistency benefits, etc., I felt that a mic in front of a speaker wouldn't respond the same way as a mic in front of human mouth and all its various random "stuff." Plus, I wasn't really sure if there would be "generation loss" (to coin a term) from miking a signal that had already been miked and speakered (to coin another term). A calendar might indeed be fun! ------------------ Mitch Gallagher Editor EQ magazine [This message has been edited by EQ_Editor (edited 08-23-2000).] the poster formerly known as MitchG formerly known as EQ_Editor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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