Question for some of you studio guys

[timrocker]

Hi Drummers,

I play guitar and usually post over on the guitar forum. I have a question that needs some perspectives and answers. First the sitch: I have been tracking some of my instrumental compositions in a studio. It's my dollars spent at a modest part-time basement studio tracking on ProTools. I'm using a drummer I've gigged with a few times. I bring him a CD of the guitar mixes, so he can learn/write his parts. Then a week later we go in to the studio and track him. I usually put a version of the song on the CD with the click present, then one without, so he can use training wheels and then take them off, so to speak. Lately he has been claiming that he'd do a better job if I put the bass down first, so it would be on the CD and present in the phones when he's tracking. He says he's used to listening to the bass player for getting ideas and locking up.

 

I had been under the impression that the usual way is to track drums and then have the bass player lock with that. Since I'm playing the bass parts my self, I don't really know what to do until the drums are there. It's partly that I'm not a bass player, and partly that I've read and heard extensively that drums track before bass as a matter of procedure.

 

What do you all think? Is there any thing to be gained by following the procedure? Is there any thing to be gained by going with his request? What are your experiences and results?

 

Thanks a lot for all the free advice!

[Allan Speers]

The best way is always to have the drums, bass, and guitar play at once. adding a scratch vocal also helps. All feed off of each other.

 

this is more important when not using a click, but even with a click it makes a difference.

 

Of course, if any of the players have questionable timing, then things will be worse, not better, for the same reason.

[joeq]

in any situation where the music is being tracked one instrtument at a time, going first sucks. You can hardly blame your drummer for wanting to hear some music to play off of as he lays down his track. You could also hardly blame the bass player (you) from wanting to hear some real drums in his headphones before he lays down his track. Its just human nature to want that.

 

I have overdubbed drums LAST on some occasions. of course there was a click on those situations.

 

For live playing, I think to establish a real groove and truly steady timing, you need to have at least 3 people playing together

 

FWIW, I would almost never do the type of overdubbing you are describing without a click. I am sure others here might disagree with me, but I feel if you can't all play together, you need some kind of reference. Otherwise a tiny gltich in the timing of the first track can become worse with each succeeding overdub.

[timrocker]

There is a click when he is tracking. I'm saying that when I give him his "learn" CD, I put down a version with the click, and next a version without, so he can work the song with the reference, and then without. When we go into the studio, we have the click in his phones.

 

I hear you both about tracking with three people at once. I've heard that from some pretty knowledgeable people here in town too. On these tunes, I have been tracking the guitars at home and then transferring the tracks to protools there. It saves me money and I'm able to do it on my own schedule. Do you think it would help some to do the bass and drums simultaneously? That's an option.

[randy clay]

timrocker:

 

My thoughts are is you want the best performance from the drummer, give him what he wants. If he wants a bass part to lock on to, I think you will get the best from him if you let him track with a bass player, or to a pre-recorded part.

The suggestion about having gtr/bass/drums together is a good one, just lay the drum part down and you can go back and track the rest later.

 

On a project that I did, we recorded guitars, bass and vocals to a drum machine guide track, gave the tape to a drummer, and recorded him last. His playing was just awesome, he was able to punch all the breaks and create a real sense of dynamics and drama in his part. Other types of music may require a different approach.

 

That's my opinion......

[Allan Speers]

As Randy says, "you can go back and track the rest later." _When in the big studio, it shouldn't take them more than 5 minutes to get a servicable guitar sound.

 

this doesn't have to be the keeper, just a guide to help the drummer feel things. then go home and replace to your heart's content. (but try not to replace the bass)

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by timrocker:

Do you think it would help some to do the bass and drums simultaneously? That's an option.

Judging from his comments, I would think that might be worth a try for sure! Could also help to have a rhythm guitar scratch track going if you can't get a keeper.

[Lee Flier]

We always track at least the bass and drums at the same time. I usually put down a scratch guitar track too, so we can all three be playing together at the time the drums go down. I usually use a POD for the scratch track if I don't want amp bleed in the drums, then go back later and re-cut the guitars with a real amp, over the keeper bass and drum tracks. If I don't care about bleed (which I don't for some songs), I just track all three of us at once with me through the amp, though I might play rhythm all the way through and overdub another guitar part later.

 

We never use a click, either. It's much better IMO to let the drummer set the tempo and let it breathe and be human - any good drummer CAN play with a click, but if he's really good, the click is a constraint. Recording the way I described makes it easy to track with no click.

[freelance]

I agree with all the previous comments. Your drummer is making a suggestion that he thinks will alow him to provide his best performance (which is what you want I would think).

 

It is very difficult to put down the first track - in particular if you did not write the material and do not know where the song is going.

 

I almost always put down better drum tracks if I either know where the song's going or at leat have one or more instruments to work with.

 

Personnally, I prefer to play to a rhythem guitar part rather than the bass line. As someone else said, you should be able to dial up some kind of down and dirty guitar tone for a scratch track - certainly POD, JStation of any modeler would be ideal for that.

[gmd]

Being a working drummer and recording engineer, I've tried just about every way you can to track bass and drums. No question it's always better if the drummer and bass player can record together. (Better yet if the guitar player plays as well.) There is a subtle difference when three (or more) humans play at the same time versus adding to each other's pre-exsisting tracks. If you have to record with a click track, have the drummer play to a click (wearing headphones) at rehearsal. That way everybody is prepared for recording, and time and money won't be wasted...

[timrocker]

Just to clarify: In the last two sessions, the keeper guitar tracks were in the phones for him to monitor while he tracked. Also the click track. The only thing missing was the bass, which I added a few days later. I am going to take your suggestions and have the bass done when he gets there next time. I am not anywhere near a good enough bass player to wing it and track with the drums at the same time. I don't think.

[D_dup3]

As a writer who also plays several instruments here's my best offer:

The most logical approach might be to think of the roles of the instruments in regard to their supportive role in the song.

Whatever defines the melodic elements would be composed first, then the harmonic parts & then accents.

As a vast generality, the bass line is likely to be a bit more free than the drum/percussion parts. Bass lines often play licks & fills that are not tied to the hard rhythm of the song, so to me it's a bit more logical to fit the drums around the other parts of the song than vice versa. Let them support & accent the other instruments & voice.

 

Of course this is all down to the method you're using to record & doesn't reflect any ultimate, best way to do things in all situations.

 

As a final thought I'd like to suggest that you not get bogged down in the "traditional wisdom" of totally locking the bass & bass drum together. This is an adaptation that came in c.1970s pop/rock production & tracking each instument separately & it doesn't reflect the way real rhythm sections do their best work. Consider what jazz bands do & even funk dance bands. For example, one of the mainstays of Bootsy Collins's work is the way he sometimes hits the "1" a 1/16th before the bass drum.

[DrummerCafe]

Whatever the musician needs ... that's what the best answer is.

 

I personally don't see why the drummer can't track his/her parts without a bass part already tracked ... but whatever they need to do the best job is what you need to do if possible ... or use a different drummer.

 

I've played drums on sessions where I'm the first thing to go down to tape, first thing to go down but simultaneously with the bass, first thing to go down but with a full rhythm section, and the last thing to go down. Creatively speaking ... there's a lot's of advantages and disadvantages to each scenario ... but I just work with whatever the situation is. Sessions like the ones I just mentioned go on all the time; there really is no "normal" way of doing it anymore. Budgets, musician availability, studio size, producer's desire and creative license are just some of the factors that determine whether the drums go down first, last or somewhere in between.

 

The issue that I would like to bring up is that often times having to track to "scratch" tracks, which are not going to be kept in the final mix or will be recut, affect the overall feel of the tracking process. Having your drummer cut to something that will later be replaced may or may not cause the quality of the performance to waiver. Whenever I track drums or percussion to scratch tracks, I always focus on the click as my conductor and not the scratch tracks, which is just a guide for me. If a click was not used or not available, then I let the producer know that I will have to play to something that is "rough" and will influence my playing in perhaps a less desirable fashion (or maybe not). It all comes down to how well the scratch tracks are. If the rough mix has tempo problems, then my track will sound that way too if you remove the scratch tracks ... so the foundation is flawed from the beginning. If you are going for the whole 'feel' vibe, then cut the drums to something that you plan on keeping so that all the little timing nuances make sense.

 

Something has to drive the bus ... so to speak. Someone or some instrument has to be the guide by which we all follow or cut to. A click is good because even though it has perfect time, it won't be in the final mix ... and no human has perfect time ... so there is always going to be a 'natural' element to it all. But using a human as your guide, and then not keep it in the final mix ... well, personally I think that's a bad idea. If you do, that means the drums just played to an imperfect guide ... which you just removed ... making the drummer sound (potentially) worse than if they had just played all by themselves and not be influenced by somethinig that will never be in the final mix.

 

Even if you don't agree with my thinking, at least it's another side of the coin ... and certainly worth considering or thinking about.

 

When there is just click to cut the drums to, I'll often have another instrument playing along with me (live), but I keep it down in my headphones. This allows me to get a good feel, listening to the "guide" instrument for the structure, etc., and allowing the click to keep me on the right path.

 

Incidentally, I almost always keep the click down in my mix is well. I don't need it pounding away in my headphones to keep me on track. This allows for a more natural vibe, maintaining a nice pocket, not sounding stiff, and still allowing the music to breathe.

 

My two cents ....

[timrocker]

Makes sense.

[Lee Flier]

I think Bart's comments make sense IF you are doing scratch tracks in advance that the drummer has to play to. He's absolutely correct that something has to "drive the bus." The thing is, IMO what should really drive the bus most of the time is the drummer. If he has to play with scratch tracks or a click, he's really not the one driving the bus. Playing to keeper tracks MIGHT be better depending on the song - like if the rhythm guitar is going to be the thing that sets up the tempo and feel and the drummer follows that.

 

So when we do scratch tracks while laying down the drums, the difference is that we're playing at the same time. Even though the tracks are likely going to be re-cut, we're still playing together at the time the drums go down, and can visually cue off each other and so forth. The drummer's not following a click or a prerecorded track of any kind. It's a LOT better for the bass player and me to go back and follow the prerecorded drums for the overdubs, than the other way around. Know what I mean? This way the drummer's driving the bus.

 

Now if it's only you and the drummer in the room at the time, then you'd have to pick whether you play guitar or bass if you did it this way. The drummer would probably have an opinion which he preferred... I would think laying down a rhythm guitar track would be the thing to do, that would make it a lot easier for him to follow the song structure than hearing the bass line alone. A friend of mine who plays all the instruments on his records except drums, works that way... they go in and the two of them bash out the drum tracks with my friend playing a straight rhythm part and then everything goes on top of that. Works great... his records sound like there's a band in a room together and I dare say ours do too. Trying to put drums on top of preexisting tracks is always a huge compromise to the overall performance IMO.

[timrocker]

It's definitely time to try some things different. I was very disappointed in the way these last two tunes turned out compared to the previous three. The reason I've been doing it this way is that it allows me to track the guitars at my place, and then import them to Protools to layer on top of. And, the fact that I'm not actually a bass player, so it's hard for me to track bass parts without drums to listen to. Soon it will be time to start another project and I'd like to try some of these excellent suggestions.

[DrummerCafe]

I agree with Lee for the most part. I would just say that every musician is different, every studio is different, and every situation is different. You've got to do what works for you.

 

Personally, I don't have a problem tracking the drums with let's say an acoustic guitarist playing along with me ... and even singing. Works great actually as you work together to create the vibe and groove. The problem comes into play when the person tracking with me doesn't have the ability to then go back and cut a final track, replacing the scratch track they laid down with me. Again, a great example of how every is situation is going to be different.

 

Sometimes I track with an acoustic guitar and vocals PLUS a click, and sometimes not. The click can be your friend if you let it. Treat it like another member of the band. You can choose to follow it, play with it, or ignore it. Keeping it low in your Q (head phone mix) is a great way to not let yourself be consumed by it.

 

I could play you examples of when I've tracked drums first (alone), with a bassist, with a scratch guitar/vocal, with full rhythm section, and as the last thing to go down on tape. All with or without click ... and I don't think you can tell the difference. But I'm cool with doing it any way that is needed, and am comfortable with it. Some people just prefer a particular way, and that's cool.

 

All I'm trying to say is there is no ONE way of doing something. For some, one way works better than others, but we are all different and have different talents and abilities. Take all the possibilities and find the way that best works for you. Sometimes you don't have the luxuary to choose how or when you track the drums. Budgets, musicians, producers, studios and time all play a part in the end result. Learn to go with what you can do and what works best ... and you'll be a LOT happier in the end.

[Siberian]

Here's how my band records in my basement studio...

 

We lay down a click track first, then we dump all the keyboard arpeggio's that are pre-programmed and linked to the midi click signal. Then we do a scratch **live** recording with guitar, bass, drums, and vocal all together, except the drums aren't actually recorded... I just play them live in order to get the feel and timing locked in for the rest of the band. The bass is run direct and not miked so there's no bleed, I isolate the guitar and vocals best as possible to reduce/eliminate bleed.

 

Next, I go back and lay down the drum tracks for real while listening to the scratch playback in the headphone mix (as well as the click).

 

Then one by one, we overdub all the bass, guitar, keyboard, and vocal tracks by creating a headphone mix for each musician that includes the original scratch recording (minus their own original scratch part, blended with the newly recorded drum tracks). The rest of the band doesn't use the click... only I do to record my parts.

 

With this method, we preserve the feel of the song, and achieve better isolation between instruments for final mixing. And the timing is always dead on because of the click.

[timrocker]

Well, I could really see this working in my favor. See, when I track at home it costs me about nothing. Well, the price of the tape reels. When I track at the studio I pay their rate. So, I'll do the gits and the bass in my living room, and import it to Protools. When Dan Drummer's session is over, it's mixdown time. Well, the next day. You know how that goes, fresh ears and all. The reason I was hesitant to do that in the first place is that I read articles that made it sound like the order was just crucial.

[Sean Eldon]

When I do solo stuff with all of the instruments, I write every part and track it into a MIDI file. I make the MIDIs into WAVs, put them on a CD, and play along to that instead of a click track. You get the full band feel and stay in tempo at the same time. Works like a charm. The link in my signature has some examples of how it comes out for me.