Loud cymbals

[adam b_dup1]

What are some loud cymbals that still have good sound, which would work great in loud situations but still have some good range. im pretty much just asking for louder crashes, right now im using HHX evolution crashes, so if you could, compare them, to your suggestions an how much of a big volume difference there would be, or if micing them up would be better.

thanks

[Tedly Nightshade]

What you got is easily loud enough. ANYTHING is loud enough. Usually the cymbals are WAY TOO LOUD unless they are played by a very sensitive player indeed... regardless of musical style.

 

What makes you think what you got ain't loud enough?

 

And cymbals always sound better acoustically than mic'ed up, unless you have a fantastic sound system and soundman, and then, most of the time they still sound way better acoustically. Unless you're playing an arena or something. Where are you playing?

[Allan Speers]

I think what you 're looking for isn't "loud" as much as "cutting." You want a crash that cuts through high-volume, sustaining guitars.

 

Two of my favorites, for recording, are the Zildian A-Customs, and the Piaste 2002's.

 

There are also Bosphorus Gold and Istanbul radiant, if you want to get a little exotic.

 

I believe Anatolian is alos making a "rock" line, which would likely be handmade and fairly expensive, and I haven't heard them yet. (but I sure want to.)

[Siberian]

Usually anything with more thickness and mass can achieve louder volumes. The problem is, the really heavy cymbals that sound good at loud volumes, usually don't sound all that great when played softly. And if you try to go with a thinner cymbal, you run the risk of cracking it when you try and play it loud.

 

Being in a metal band, I too have to use louder crashes to keep up with everyone else, and yet I also like to have my cymbals sound good at moderate volumes as well, like for recording. That said, I have found the Zildjian A-Custom Projection crashes to fit my needs. They have enough mass so that I can play them harder with little worries of cracking, especially in live situations where the cymbals are not miked up, and yet they sound good when I play them softer.

[adam b_dup1]

well, we aren't playing any big shows or anything, its just last time we were practicing, we had the garage door open and i guess for the reason that it was open my cymbals seemed to quiet, it was kinda strange, it just felt like it had less drive to the music. everytime i would hit them it would just seem really strange. like they just weren't performing to their best. i mean, while playing indoors like we usually do, i mean, they sound amazing, i love the way they sound, its just outdoors they sound so weak.

 

would there be anything i could do to help that? like my setup or the setup of the guitar amps and PA?

[Siberian]

If you had the overhead door open and you were set up near the door, you were probably not hearing much of the reflections of the cymbals back at you... so yes, it would have sounded weak because the sound waves are going right out the door. I've noticed in the past when I have had my drums set up outside, the cymbals sounded HORRIBLY weak.

 

As for changing other things, I suppose you could have everyone else turn down so the cymbals would sound louder in relation to the rest of the band, however, your chances of getting a guitarist to turn his amp down are about as good as the chances of a one-legged man winning an ass-kicking contest.

[Platy]

Just get BIG ones.

 

Like the HHX evo 18" crash

 

or the AAX 18" dark crash (this baby is a monster)

[adam b_dup1]

Originally posted by Siberian:

As for changing other things, I suppose you could have everyone else turn down so the cymbals would sound louder in relation to the rest of the band, however, your chances of getting a guitarist to turn his amp down are about as good as the chances of a one-legged man winning an ass-kicking contest.

i hear ya on that one....hear ya on that one....

[Varispeed]

I've been using Z Custom crashes for a few years now. I use 17 and a 19 and they are, I assure you, discernable in the mix! As others have said, they don't like being tapped and if you want to use brushes, look elsewhere. However, they give a fast, explosive, high-pitched crash and are a worthwhile investment if its power you are looking for.

[Tedly Nightshade]

One of the major points of being a good drummer, instead of just a drummer, is playing to the audience, and making a mix of your kit that sounds good to the audience, not to you.

 

Of course it's hard to tell what it's like out there, and usually all you have to go by is what it's like for you- but what matters most to a good drummer is what it's like from where the audience sits, stands, or moshes. One thing is for sure, it's a whole lot different that what it sounds like from the drum throne!

 

I know what you mean about things "feeling right"- that's important, but not as important as things sounding right to the audience! Eventually you get a feel for how it feels when it sounds right out there, and that becomes what feels right. When it feels that way, you know from experience that what that means sonically is what you want.

 

Recording is a really good way to find out what it's like out there, but it can be misleading too. Still, even a cheap quick & dirty recording is better than none, for finding out what you really sound like. If you can get a knowledgeable friend with good taste for what you're after, to stand at a distance and tell you what it's like, that can help a lot too.

 

You probably will find that the cymbals are really loud out there, but that the drums are not as punchy and solid as you want. Usually it becomes about finessing the cymbals, even in a loud guitar band, and smacking the drums really well- and tuning the drums so they sound solid and heavy when you smack 'em. The cymbals and the bass drum are the hardest things to get right- what sounds good from the bass drum at a distance is really different than what sounds good from where you're sitting! You are just too close to hear those long soundwaves unfolding, and often annoying little noises to you are not part of the sound at a distance.

 

This is the difference between drummers and good drummers! Good luck!

[digibird]

Paiste 2002 series crashes (I especially like the 18"-19"-20")

 

They are loud, cutting and sound brilliant, even with Les Pauls, JCM 800s, and 4x12s. Throw in a Strat and a Boogie while you're at it, the 2002s got you covered.

 

Best crash cymbals I've ever owned. This from a guy who would not own anything other than Zildjian for over 25 years. Live and learn.

[adam b_dup1]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade:

One of the major points of being a good drummer, instead of just a drummer, is playing to the audience, and making a mix of your kit that sounds good to the audience, not to you.

 

Of course it's hard to tell what it's like out there, and usually all you have to go by is what it's like for you- but what matters most to a good drummer is what it's like from where the audience sits, stands, or moshes. One thing is for sure, it's a whole lot different that what it sounds like from the drum throne!

 

I know what you mean about things "feeling right"- that's important, but not as important as things sounding right to the audience! Eventually you get a feel for how it feels when it sounds right out there, and that becomes what feels right. When it feels that way, you know from experience that what that means sonically is what you want.

 

Recording is a really good way to find out what it's like out there, but it can be misleading too. Still, even a cheap quick & dirty recording is better than none, for finding out what you really sound like. If you can get a knowledgeable friend with good taste for what you're after, to stand at a distance and tell you what it's like, that can help a lot too.

 

You probably will find that the cymbals are really loud out there, but that the drums are not as punchy and solid as you want. Usually it becomes about finessing the cymbals, even in a loud guitar band, and smacking the drums really well- and tuning the drums so they sound solid and heavy when you smack 'em. The cymbals and the bass drum are the hardest things to get right- what sounds good from the bass drum at a distance is really different than what sounds good from where you're sitting! You are just too close to hear those long soundwaves unfolding, and often annoying little noises to you are not part of the sound at a distance.

 

This is the difference between drummers and good drummers! Good luck!

......so...basicaly, i should get someone to get on my drums and hit every drum and cymbal and i should stand where the audience would be to check out the sound?....kinda like with the different sounds that come from the resonate and batter side tom heads that the drummer may hear but not the audience....but i guess if the audience doesn't like how my cymbals sound....well then what the hell should i do? spend another 600 bucks on a new line of nice cymbals?

 

now that thats out of the way...can someone give me a comparison of the loudness of HHX evolutions and others?

[Prof.Sound]

I'm going to add my $50 worth of advice here, just in case it makes sense?

 

First, go back and read what Allen first said because it is a possible solution, although the brand is not an absolute.

 

Think of your band as a canvas (this won't get too deep!). The idea may not be so much a louder cymbal as it is one that stands out due to is timbre and other tonal qualities. Power in = power out. So the harder you hit, the quicker you'll wear your ass out, the less speed you'll have, the less finesse, etc.

 

Like anything with mass, it takes more power to set it in motion and it tends to stay in motion longer. So while thicker cymbals will appear to be louder, they are not always louder in terms of dB, its more the frequencey they emmit and your ears ability to hear it. Hence the term "cutting".

 

Playing outside (door open) allows your sound to just straight line itself out to never never land. You get no feedback or reflections. But I gurantee your cymbal is one of the sounds those outside the garage are hearing.

 

If your bands sound is such that a lot of content is in a given frequency band, then something needs to give for all parts to be distinguished. This is the mark of a good recording/mix/players. If everyone plays only a 300Hz note, nobody will be able to tell who's note that is. So long theory short, consider a different size and pitch to allow your "crash" to stand out rather than looking for the loudest cymbal on the market.

 

Also remember that what may be soft to one is louder by the next player. In turn, what is loud to one is not loud by another because we all hit with different power, stick type, etc. So I thnk it hard to say one is actually louder than another?

 

HHX are by most account a very loud cutting cymbal. So what I'm saying is consider shifting size or type. Like say go to a 18" HHX Ozone Crash Cymbal instead of a plain 18" HHX Evolution Crash Cymbal. Or shift down a size and raise pitch by going to a 16" instead of a 18". Look for a crash that maybe has a longer wash to it, so the tone lingers longer and allows the ear to hear it.

 

If you do go out and do this enough, you will realize that very few of the better cymbals ever sound the same, even when they are stamped identically. Your HHX is moving towards the better end of the scale. Because your friend or hero uses or recommends a MegaBronze 20" dry Heavy, it doesn't mean your going to get the same sound or volume with the exact same cymbal, even if you order the exact same cymbal. Keep in mind just like recordings of anything, the mic, room, placement, how hard one hits, stick tip shape, size, etc. all influence sound. So chances are even if you buy the same thing or for that matter, play the same setup as someone else, it has the possibility of sounding different. On cymbals, this is important because where one strikes the cymbal greatly influences the sound.

 

And then yes, micing them up would help raise volume, but thats a whole different world of solutions and problems.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by ThatDrumnGroove:

......so...basicaly, i should get someone to get on my drums and hit every drum and cymbal and i should stand where the audience would be to check out the sound?....kinda like with the different sounds that come from the resonate and batter side tom heads that the drummer may hear but not the audience....but i guess if the audience doesn't like how my cymbals sound....well then what the hell should i do? spend another 600 bucks on a new line of nice cymbals?

 

[/QB]

Having someone else play your kit will give you some idea, but how you sound on your kit is going to be very different indeed. Playing the same cymbals in a different way will get you a long way, and costs no money, but lots of work. If you don't know what you sound like out there, guaranteed, you will never sound good. If you want to sound good, you'll find out what you sound like out there, adjust accordingly, repeat ad infinitum.

[J J]

Originally posted by ThatDrumnGroove:

Originally posted by Siberian:

As for changing other things, I suppose you could have everyone else turn down so the cymbals would sound louder in relation to the rest of the band, however, your chances of getting a guitarist to turn his amp down are about as good as the chances of a one-legged man winning an ass-kicking contest.

i hear ya on that one....hear ya on that one....

Oh please shut the F%$^ up

There's no way im turning down MY amp for a stupid drummer

We'll just have to shut the damned door

Now quit your bitchin!

 

Peace

[adam b_dup1]

HEY JJ!!!

I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE!!!!! IM GONNA KICK YER ASS!!!

[J J]

there's no way we'll turn it down with me john and jake

 

You know that!

And next time Jake's 1/2 stack's commin` (probably)

[alcohol_]

One thing I find annoying as a person in the audience is too much crash cymbal.

 

Also, cymbals seem to clash with distorted guitars in a recording mix. They are right in the same frequency range and fill up that range in an ugly way.

 

Also, the crash is really distinctive and if played too often it starts to sound out of place. To me it's a punctuation sound not a sound that should be used as part of the rhythmic pattern.

[Siberian]

originally posted by JJ:

Oh please shut the F%$^ up

There's no way im turning down MY amp for a stupid drummer

We'll just have to shut the damned door

Now quit your bitchin!

 

Peace

 

Heh.. the last guitarist who said that found out the hard way what it was like to pick up his teeth off the floor... with broken fingers.

 

 

When I say "turn down" you will obey my command and reply "yes sir! how low sir?

 

[J J]

Heh.. the last guitarist who said that found out the hard way what it was like to pick up his teeth off the floor... with broken fingers.

 

 

 

When I say "turn down" you will obey my command and reply "yes sir! how low sir?

 

that's exactly what drumgroove and I are out to do

i try to pick fights with him whenever i can

[archtop]

Dude

 

Loud cymbals are the enemy.

 

I'm constantly bitchin' about cymbal bashers.

 

and I have a huch about you

 

If you get LOUD cymbals

 

we are doomed.

[adam b_dup1]

OK.....this went a little far enough, all i wanted to know was how HHX's loud or cutting sound is compared to others....so this thread is over, getting sick of it

[Tedly Nightshade]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ThatDrumnGroove:

OK.....this went a little far enough, all i wanted to know was how HHX's loud or cutting sound is compared to others....so this thread is over, getting sick of it

[adam b_dup1]

hey Ted, i got a idea!..... why wont you go get the stick out of your ass!

[DrummerCafe]

I would recommend going with bigger diameter cymbals, rather than heavier ones. A lot of 18-inch and 20-inch crashes sound awesome.

 

Personally, even with those sizes, I don't like going heavier than a Medium Thin weight. I prefer Thin and Medium Thin cymbals.

 

Medium weight (and heavier) cymbals just sound terrible to my ears ... although there are plenty of people who use them. Too clangy for me and don't have that rich sound that I like in the Thin and Medium Thin weights.

 

Paul Leim, legendary Nashville studio drummer, uses a 20-inch crash right above his hihat.

 

The beauty about the Sabian AAX and HHX cymbals is that they are made while the metal is in a cold state. This allows them to be made thinner, but still maintain the strength you'd expect from a Medium weight cymbal.

 

Lastly, don't be bummed out about the sound of your cymbals sounding lame when the garage door is open. The high frequencies from the cymbals are directional, so they just went right out the door and didn't have a chance to reflect or bounce back to you. Everything sounds weak when you take it outside because the sound can't reflect off anything to come back to your ears ... like you are used to hearing indoors.

 

Hang in there ... it's not as bad as you think.

[Tedly Nightshade]

No stick there, jack. As they say, it only annoys the pig...

 

Peace!

[adam b_dup1]

thanks bartman i never knew thats how the HHX's were made, thats kinda cool. yea i do love the rich shimmering sounds of the HHX's, i've tried thick cymbals but they just seem just too big and dull, not much definition, well how you talked about bigger cymbals diameters, well i got HHX 16" and 18" as my crashes, so i guess im allright there, but i would love to get a 20" HHX if they made them, even with my 18 i like to use it as a ride, just think of how cool a 20 would sound

 

yea i kindof understood the idea that with an open door, the sound escapes but i just never understood why SO MUCh of it escapes, thanks