New drums or switch to electronic???

[rd]

I've been trying to decide if I want to stick with an acoustic set, and upgrade my old el'cheapo Ludwigs ... or just go electronic and sell all the acoustics. I know most of these are fairly obvious random statements, I'm just trying to work it out in my mind and get some feedback:

 

Electronic pros:

-consistent high quality drum sounds (I hate tuning, can never get a sound I like out of my acoustics)

-for recording, no room/mic/crosstalk issues, quiet

-lightweight, easier to move

-nearly quiet practice with perfect sound in headphones (compared to acoustic)

-could share a brain between a cheap home practice pads and better stage/recording pads(???)

-many pros use triggered acoustics anyway (correct?)

 

Electronic cons:

-cymbals don't sound good (in my Alesis D4 experience)

-dynamics not as good (in my Alesis D4 experience)

-not as fun/rewarding to work aggressions out on hard pads

-don't look as nice on stage as acoustic

-people might think it's a drum machine and not live

-relatively expensive per drum/cymbal it seems like(???)

 

Acoustic pros:

-look nice

-rewarding to pound on and make lots of noise

-already have significant investment in 8-10 Zildjian cymbals, Gibralter Rack hardware, and mics

 

Acoustic cons:

-loud live, drums set the volume level for other instruments in smaller / non-mic'd places

-loud practice, drums force me to use headphones with really loud music in order to balance the recording/my playing.

-muffling would ruin the experience/sound even for practice

-difficult to mic for recording

-large/heavy, pain to transport a large kit

-tuning

 

I've used a pieced together electronic kit made out of an Alesis D4, some old triangular Roland(?) pads, and several Remo practice pads with triggers (for the cymbals). This actually worked out okay, my only real complaints were the poor cymbal sounds and poor dynamics. The other cons listed above also apply.

 

I don't think I really want to spend the money for vdrums. I don't know of any local place (Indy) to see ddrums.

 

Are the cymbals and dynamics in the Alesis DM5 or DMpro better than the D4? Are the usuable at all? How much does it cost to upgrade sounds in a DM5 or DMpro, I know the pro has a PCMCIA slot. Are there good samples available for free anywhere? I've heard this is easy on the ddrum and you can find actually samples used by pros.

 

Pintech, or one of those companies, has some pads that look like a Remo practice pad with a mesh head. How are these compared to vdrums? compared to acoustic feel?

 

An in-between option would be to just get a cheap electronic kit for practice only, but I'd think it would be better to use the same kit all the time.

 

Any advice, I know I've rambled on a lot here.

[freelance]

I own Vdrums - and have owned various electronic drums going back to the 80's (Simmons, Pearl, Roland). I also own several drum modules and have owned/used many others. I currently own 3 accoustic kits - and have owned abouts 20 kits over the past 35 years.

 

I qualify so you understand I do have a fair amount of experiance with both accoustic & electronic.

 

I would never own only an electronic kit. I don't like e-drums for live performance (too many things can go wrong, you need an adequate sound system, FOH guys don't like them and often the other guys on stage don't like them).

 

I do like e-drums as an option for recording - I've gotten many session gigs over the years because I owned (and could program) e-drums. Although that trend has reversed alot during the last few years (most people want live drums) - I think in part because drummers buy the e-drums but never take the time to learn how to get the best sounds out of them. Hell, most drummers don't bother to learn how to tune accoustic drums.

 

You are correct that e-cymbals are lacking and I'm not convinced that can ever be corrected (cymbals produce way too many harmonics to capture a good sample).

 

I own a D4, I've owned a DM5 and I'ved used the DM Pro often. Candidly, I don't think the cymbal sound improved that much (or the drum sound for that matter - which is why I still keep my D4).

 

I don't thik the V-drum cymbals are that much better either(I almost always use "real" cymbals in sessions - and when I have used e-drums live, "real" cymbals are a no brainer.

 

Regarding Pintech, I think the pads are not bad and compare well with the Rolands. While they are certainly less costly than the Rolands - they still ain't cheap. I've never had a chance to try dDrums - but I have heard very good comments.

 

So if I were you, I would stick with (or upgade) your accoustic set - and only consider e-drums as an additional option if and when you can afford (or cost justify)it.

[Super 8]

Okay, first of all, I never cared for the Alesis D4. It has a few decent sounds, but most of them are awful, and the cymbals -especially the ride cymbals- are a joke. It works okay for someone who wants a drum box to MIDI up to, but that is all I would ever use it for.

 

On to your question.

Should you play acoustics or go electronic. You may as well as if you should play acoustic guitar or electric....or play a piano versus a syntheizer. That is what this comes down to.

 

You CAN approximate acoustic drum sounds from an electronic kit, but you REALLY need to see acoustics and electronics as TWO different instruments.

 

I play acoustics, and I love them.

 

I have played electronics almost as long as I've played acoustics, and I love electronics as well. But you have to approach each instrument differently, and have different expectations from them -because they ARE different.

 

I think it's pretty important as a drummer that you learn how to tune your drums. Yes, it takes time and practice, but it ain't rocket science. I personally do not own what I would consider a "Pro" drumset. While the snare and cymbals are all very high quality, but kick and toms are from the same kit I bought when I was 18. These aren't maple or birch shells -well the snare is maple.

 

I get great sounds out of them, because I keep some decent heads on them -I prefer Remo clear Ambassodors and I have some Remo O's to lightly dampen the sound- and I spend some time tuning them.

 

They work fine for recording. Maybe I wouldn't record a major album for Steely Dan with them, but I would feel comfortable using them for anything else. For live use....WHO CARES???? They all sound the same!

 

For myself, I would not want to only have an electronic drumset. I would only want electronics if I also owned an accoustic. Electronics can be used to augment, or in some situations as a substitute....but NEVER as a replacement for the real thing.

[TShakazBlackRoots]

I happen to be a member of the Bassists forum (Low down) and the Song writer's one too.

However, I am a drummer too. So I'd love to be on this forum too.

 

E-drums are very convinient especially for studio and even live if one knows how to use them to the maximum potential.

However, a well tuned, milked acoustic is something else. Live or studio.

 

I'm a Roots Reggae musician and I've participated in concerts where the sets were mixed. An E-rig together with an acoustic. Awesome.

 

I don't own a drum set but if I could only afford one set, it'd be e-drums...only for convinience.

[Allan Speers]

I'm using two e-kicks, 4 e- toms, a pole pad for closed-hat when playing double kick, plus a real snare and cymbal setup (including the main hats.)

 

It took a LOT of experimenting, but the end result is incredible. The biggest stumbling block is latency in the brain. Ddrum is the best. Alessis is the worst.

 

Crosstalk is another nightmare. Using a Gibraltar stand and Pearl tom-mounts, all filled with sand (NOT foam!) helps a ton.

-also weighs a ton.

 

As for pads, I had the Roland V's but sold them and got Hart pros. the Hart's are a little louder, but definitely feel more like real drums.

 

I couldn't be happier, and session drummers that come in just love it, as they hear perfect kick and toms when they sit down, not to mention the ability to change these sounds quickly.

 

i also use an Aura shaker, which I recommend highly. many on this forum said that it wouldn't be necessary with good headphones, but after using one, I STRONGLY dissagree. It makes a huge difference.

[rd]

Thanks for the comments, but I'm still in the dilemna :-)

 

Aren't edrums or triggered edrums used more and more in pro studio/live settings? I guess I'm referring more to mainstream/rock music, I'm sure jazz or more technical styles might not be into edrums as much.

 

So if Alesis modules aren't very good, and ddrum is likely too expensive (how much anyway?)... what is a good mid range system with decent cymbal samples/modelling/??? ?

 

Anyone practice completely on edrums and play live only on acoustic? Experiences?

[Allan Speers]

QUOTE:

 

"Aren't edrums or triggered edrums used more and more in pro studio/live settings?"

 

I can't speak for live.

In pro studios, (what does that actually mean, anymore?) it is extremely uncommon to use them for rock. Omar Hakim told me that more than 50% of his session income now comes from V-drum sessions. However, this is typically for electronic music, and he plays a fully electronic kit. -no real cymbals at all.

 

session drummers are VERY hesitant to sit down at an e kit, and you want them to be comfortable.

 

What IS common in pro studios is to replace many of the drums wiith samples AFTER THE RECORDING IS DONE. This is done in Protools, via the Sound-replacer plugin. Using the plugin gives much better timing than using midi.

 

My current set-up is working well, but again I use real snare and cymbals, as outlined above. I also add the sound of the pickups DIRECTLY into the cue system, so that the drummer, bassist and guitarist all hear the actual attack of the pads in perfect time. After recording, I use this direct pickup sound as a timing template, and align the sound from module or midi-Gigastudio accordingly.

 

** You mentioned above that crosstalk is less of a problem with e-drums. Ttrust me, crosstalk is a HUGE issue with e-drums !!! -especially when you hit a loud crash. toms tend to go off from the sympathetic vibrations, especially if you mount everything on one rack.

 

It's a lot of work.

 

AFAIK, I am the only one currently doing this in a "pro" studio. It makes a HUGE difference. Still, I absolutely love this set-up. i use Hart Pro pads, becuase they look more like real drums, which relaxes the drummer. They also use the thicker Pearl-type mounts, which can be filled with sand, thus further reducing crosstalk.

[rd]

Thanks for the detailed info Allan, very interesting. I guess I just notice a lot of triggers on live rock kits I see. Also remember reading about people starting to do it 15 years ago so I assumed it would be even more popular now with improved technology.

 

Crosstalk... I was referring more to mic crosstalk in a "low budget" studio like my spare bedroom :-) Maybe that isn't even the right term for when one instrument bleeds into another's mic.

[dmt]

E-drums do have crosstalk issues. You basically have to set the drums for a compromise between being sensitive enough to register light hits, while not being so sensitive that they trigger and register a hit when you bang on an adjacent drum pad.

 

For example, when I was practicing through headphones this afternoon, I was hearing my crash very lightly triggering in the background while I was banging on the high hat.

 

The mesh pads are one million times better than the hard rubber pads [in my opinion].

 

In my experience with my alesis DM pro kit, I definitely agree with the previous poster that said electronic kits have serious reliability issues that make them a really marginal choice for live use. For example, my high hat sometimes doesn't trigger - then where are you? it's no problem at home for practice, or even for recording -- he just mess around with the jack until things are working right and there you go - but live it would be disastrous. I've also had trouble with the high hat foot controller. I've had the brain lock up on me I think three times since I got the kit six months ago. Not bad at all for homey use (especially as everything was fixed simply by turning the unit on and off), but what would you do if the kit locked up in the middle of a song! Finally, my biggest problem lately has been that the clamps that position the drum heads aren't keeping the drums in position very well anymore. The drums start to droop from their set position while you're playing -- reaching almost unplayable positions . after a sometimes disturbingly short time.

 

Well, I'm going to have to overcome this "drooping" issue for sure, somehow. When I originally got the set, they held position pretty well. Anyway, overall I'm really glad I got the electronic set -- it was the only solution for my apartment living. I wish I had an acoustic set, but then again, I wish I had a lot of things!

 

The electronic set is great for recording - "micing" couldn't be easier! - though of course there is a lack in the variation of sound between hits and this can sometimes be noticeable even in a mix. Still, I've already gotten great [home practice/jam room/home studio] use out of them.

[JMFlint]

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has resolved the "drooping" issue -- I just bought a used set of edrums (for rehearsal purposes, mostly) and the small tom is driving me crazy!!

 

Also, I have yet to get the high-hat pedal to work. I'm sure it's me (not sure where it's connected to the brain). Right now I'm using the acoustic high-hat, but it defeats the quiet rehearsal purpose...

 

TIA.

[Allan Speers]

The only solution to the drooping thing is to pop for a Gibraltar or Tama stand, with the beefy clamps. Combine that with Hart's use of the 7/8" mounts, and those pads aren't going anywhere.

[rd]

Looking at musiciansfriend.com and drumbalaya.com, there are a few choices for "budget" e drums. Comments???:

 

1) Hart Prodigy, 5 piece e-practice-pad kit, rack, DM5 $800

 

2) Yamaha DTxpressIII, 5 piece rubber pad kit, rack, yamaha module, $1000

 

3) Pintech Spirit, 5 piece, e-practice-pads, rack, DM5, $850

 

4) Pintech Studio, 5 piece, mesh pads, rack, DM5, ~$1450

[polyt]

After spending an afternoon looking at e-drums myself, choose your module wisely. I was very unimpressed by a lot of what I saw out there. The DT Express, DT Express III, and even the Yammy TD-6 weren't that great.

 

I was happy with just about every pad set I tried though. Especially the mesh Pintechs.

 

I wish I could try a DM-5 but I haven't heard one so I can't comment there.

[dmt]

In my opion, the extra expense of the mesh pads is money well spent if you plan to use the set extensively (for sometimes hours at a time, possibly a few days a week, week after week over the course of the year). The hard pads really beat up your wrists and forearms after not all that much use - and then where are you? Some people get shin splints from just a little running, while other people can run ultra-marathons injury-free, though, so how your body responds may be different from mine.

 

BTW, I've had some resolution with my drooping issue that I posted about before. First, I noticed that some of the heads weren't moving, so I used them as a guide to reposition the droopers in more stable positions. This helped slightly. The big thing though, has been that I've gone back, after many months, to an acoustic set - and I saw that I had developed a bad habit of really hitting hard on my tom rolls from using the electronic set. My electronic set isn't as volume dynamically sensitive to my hits as an acoustic set, and also, the hi hat is a little too high up in the mix how its set - so I compensated by really whapping on the toms. This lead to me suddenly developing a big drooping issue, whereas before the problem existed but was much more acceptable. Now that I've gone back to more reasonable (and proper, compared to the strenth of my hi hat hits) hits on the tom heads, the drooping situation has gone back to how it was before - acceptable.

 

Now I just have to figure out how to program the damn brain to get my hi hat volume down a bit!

[Super 8]

Originally posted by rd:

Looking at musiciansfriend.com and drumbalaya.com, there are a few choices for "budget" e drums. Comments???:

Slightly off topic:

 

I purchased an item from Drumbalaya a couple of years ago, when they were just getting started. I thought they were really nice people, and was totally satisfied. So, you can take that as a reference for them.

[bassdrummer]

Just a warning on the Pintech Spirit kit -- the inverted kick trigger is too sensitive. Just by me tapping the heel area of my pedal, not even moving the beater, the thing triggers. The "advantage" is that if I can learn to control it, I can get double kick sounds a la Sonor's Twin Effect Giant Step pedal or Duallist. But this doesn't happen on the Roland V-Kick upright pad. I also like the Roland mesh pads better than the Pintech mesh pads, but that may be just because I'm more used to them.

[where02190]

If you want electronic drum sounds, then go electronic, but if you want acoustic drum sounds, learn to tune properly. Electronic drums will never sound as good as acoustic drums. There is no interaction between the various drums as there is with a properly tuned acoustic kit.

[shniggens]

Just get a Future Man setup!

 

http://www.jeffcoffin.com/photos/new/futureman%2011895_159.jpg

[Griffinator]

Originally posted by rd:

Thanks for the comments, but I'm still in the dilemna :-)

 

Aren't edrums or triggered edrums used more and more in pro studio/live settings? I guess I'm referring more to mainstream/rock music, I'm sure jazz or more technical styles might not be into edrums as much.

 

So if Alesis modules aren't very good, and ddrum is likely too expensive (how much anyway?)... what is a good mid range system with decent cymbal samples/modelling/??? ?

 

Anyone practice completely on edrums and play live only on acoustic? Experiences?

Mainstream dance pop typically uses programmed electronic drums. V's are not the norm in studios.

 

Here's another problem with V's (and every other electronic kit I've messed with)

 

no choke!

 

That's right, you can't choke a cymbal. Blammo! That sinks the boat for me.

[bassdrummer]

Originally posted by Griffinator:

 

Here's another problem with V's (and every other electronic kit I've messed with)

 

no choke!

 

That's right, you can't choke a cymbal. Blammo! That sinks the boat for me.

Yes, you can choke the newer dual-trigger electronic cymbals. You just grab the edge as you would grab an acoustic cymbal.

[bassdrummer]

Originally posted by bassdrummer:

Just a warning on the Pintech Spirit kit -- the inverted kick trigger is too sensitive. Just by me tapping the heel area of my pedal, not even moving the beater, the thing triggers.

To further emphasize this: I accidentally left my pedal at church on Sunday; came home to my V-drums and was able to play bass drum on that Pintech kick trigger WITHOUT A PEDAL! Just tapped it with my foot.

 

Unreal.

 

 

I actually played just fine! I use a Kaces "Crash Pad" drum mat with a built-in wedge to stop the bass drum. So I just pushed the Pintech kick trigger against that wedge so it wouldn't slide away, and . . . used my foot instead of a pedal.

 

Can you believe it? "No Pedal Required!"

[rd]

Update...

 

I decided to go with the new Roland TD-6S-V-tour edrum kit. It's a new kit based on their basic 5 piece rubber pad set plus the following improvements:

-8" mesh pad for snare

-upright kick, can use with double pedal

-updated module

-HH control is variable now, not just open or closed

-new curved rack

 

http://www.rolandus.com/products/details.asp?catid=5&subcatid=22&prodid=V%2DTour+Series

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040413084541012047224013710849/g=home/search/detail/base_id/112621

 

I just got it last night and I think it's gonna work great for my quiet practice needs, and maybe to use for a couple efx and kick trigger live.

 

The cymbal sounds in this module sound way better than the "cheaper" Yamaha and Alesis modules (IMO of course). Much longer sustain. The cymbal pads are nice too, they "swing" so it feels a little more natural than hitting a fixed piece of rubber.

 

Other things to note that weren't obvious...

there is one extra/unused input for "crash2". I'll probably buy a cheap pad or ecymbal for the ride since this package has two nice "crash style" swinging ecymbals.

 

Two (or more maybe?) of the inputs can be split with an "insert cable" (1 stereo to 2 mono) if you don't need/want the edge trigger on two of the toms.

 

The AUX in works great for practicing with a CD. I hooked up my pocketpc and played along with my setlist of tunes. It would be nice if it had an anlog AUX input volume knob though.

 

I'm having a "droop" problem on the snare. It's the only pad mounter on a "straight" pipe. I'll have to work something out with this, might switch the short curved pipe for the short snare one.

[Funkwave]

I think you guys may have overlooked an important issue. You all have been talking about Alesis and Yamaha Modules. I have been there and done that until I got my first Roland TD-8. Roland Sounds are far superior to the other brands. The drums themselves really have nothing to do with the sounds at all. Take it from me a guy who records and plays live with electronics. You would be surprised at how many recordings you hear nower days have E drums on them.